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» Photograph of 24th Regiment Officers in 1873
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» Mr Buckley Naval Brigade A sad story waiting for his son
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» Yet another Hill of the Sphinx thread
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» Corporal 567 W Newbury and private 993 J Highman 99th Regiment
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» T Herbert Naval Brigade?
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» Colour Sergeant 1936 William Ledsham 2/4th Regiment
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» Private 29B/1892 Joe Robinson 58th Regiment and his recollections
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» Private 1460 James O Gorman 2/24th Regiment
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John

John


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Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyWed Jan 21, 2015 11:01 pm

John wrote:
Good Post CTSG. Sent you a Message agree

Is your email working. Just bounced back?
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Ray63

Ray63


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyWed Jan 21, 2015 11:53 pm

Ulundi. This gives quite a good perpective on how far they were from the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 12:09 am

Interesting that you think that ray..at what distance do you suppose
that car was, ie the furthest from the camp.that was the left horn,
then the centre followed by the right..what is your estimation for
the furthest of each component..if that make's sense to you.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 8:41 am

Ray
I've been there , and I'm sorry , but to me it doesnt give a great perspective , I think its hard to judge distance on that video , but I suppose if you've never been there it gives you an inkling of distance , xhosa , if he wishes , may decide to post my photos I took from the known firiing line , looking back toward the Mtn and tented area . I think he has already done so , but removed them ? .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 1:10 pm

Yeah 90th i will do that later. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 2:41 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 2:51 pm

Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 90thinZululand15
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 2:52 pm

Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 90thinZululand20
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All photo's from the 90th
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 8:53 pm

90th Any chance of a description regarding the photos!
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90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 2:48 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
To give a slight perspective of distance..

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Sunset from my balcony at Isandlwana Lodge which is below Nyoni Rock .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 2:51 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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From nQutu Ridge , the village to the left cant be seen from the plain in front of Isandlwana , also the village Middle and to the right , most of it cant be seen from the plain in front of Isandlwana , hence the dead ground we often mention .
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90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 2:54 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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The Knoll to the left is where Hamiton - Browne watched the battle unfold at Isandlwana .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 2:56 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Sunset ( again ! ) from my Balcony at Isandlwana Lodge .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:00 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Looking across the battlefied from the base of Black's Kopje , Conical hill to the right , Isandlwana Mtn out of view to the left .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:04 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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From nQutu ridge , Ian Knight just in picture on the left !
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:06 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Again taken from the NQutu Ridge , Ian in full flight !
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:08 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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From nQutu Ridge , Conical Hill just below the edge of the ridge , you can see it in the left of picture , Isandlwana Mtn out of shot to the right .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:13 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Part of the area the right horn took to get behind Isandlwana . Isandlwana is a fair distance away to the left of shot .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:16 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Another shot showing the area used by the right horn to get behind Isandlwana which is out of shot to the left .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:17 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Further to the left of the previous image .
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:20 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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All photo's from the 90th


Further left again of the previous two shots , Isandlwana still out of shot to the left , Ian Knight just in the shot , left ! LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 3:32 am

John wrote:
90th Any chance of a description regarding the photos!





John your wish is my command !
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 5:27 pm

The fortunes of war..

Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 Lc%20and%20wife
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 8:58 pm

Is that Ian Knight? I thought it was Rob Caskie!
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 9:12 pm

Littlehand it certainly is Ian Knight .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 9:48 pm

Thanks 90th agree
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 9:59 pm

Happy to try and help , also , again , a thank you to Les , for re-posting these pics Salute Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 11:07 pm

No worries, i do what i do for people
like you. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 9:33 am

90th wrote:
Happy to try and help , also , again , a thank you to Les , for re-posting these pics Salute Salute
90th

Let's see how long they last before showing a greyed out box, saying user as deleted image. agree
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 10:29 am

very nice photos gentlemen. thank you for taking the time to post them.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 1:58 pm


90th wrote:
Happy to try and help , also , again , a thank you to Les , for re-posting these pics Salute Salute
90th

Let's see how long they last before showing a greyed out box, saying user as deleted image. agree

_________________
Kind Regards...said john...

But of course your not kind, hence your remark!. they were removed exactly because of
people like you, and your inability to keep your innate nastiness to your self. i will not re-
move anymore from now on..and yes there are a great many grey boxes.. the measure
perhaps of how much i actually contribute?.. i as you know always respond.. and i am fully
aware how this also dismays the nice people. but i will confront ignorance and trolls in all
their guises..its just the way i roll..change the record john...if your able..Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 3:37 pm

This discussion seems to have ground to a halt! Nothing new being added. As always if someone has something useful to add, drop me a PM. Topic locked.
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PostSubject: Chelmsford's thought about Durnford the 22 January?   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Feb 19, 2015 10:40 pm

Bonsoir à tous,

The 10 January, i wrote about the mission of DURNFORD:"Personally, I thought of establishing an outpost between Isandhlwana and the next camp in the Mangeni (as Major Dunbar before him in the Batshe valley) in view of the impending move camp.
But this hypothesis seems to be very, very hazardous. I have no "source" to support it".  

I  found this  in "History in the Zulu war and its origin" by F. Colenso and E. Durnford (p.282)
"We find Lord CHELSMFORD, on January 27(?) stating:'(...) It took seven days hard work, by one half of n°3 column, to make the ten miles of road between Rorke's Drift and Insalwana (sic) hill practicable, and even then had it rained hard i feel sure that the convoy could not have gone on. The line of communication is very much exposed, and would require a party of mounted men always patrolling, and fixed intrenched posts of infantry at intervals of about ten miles".

Keith I. Smith wrote : (...) "the evolutions of the 1 Regiment [NNC] in early january were complex, reflecting the changes of mind to which Lord CHelmsford was subject". (p.53 /  "The Commandants: the leadership of the NNC in the AZW"/ Thesis, October 2005).

Don't forget that:
- The 22 January, HB was sent to the camp to help Pulleine for the removal of the camp;
Chelmsford said to him :"i want you to return at once to camp and assist CoL Pulleine to strike camp and come here" (I.E: total removal of the camp)
-Capt Gardner was sent to the camp "with the order to Lt-Col. Pulleine to send on the equipage and supplies of the troops caming out, and to remain at his present camp, and entrench it". (IE: partial removal of the camp).

I think that it's doubful  that the convoy could  get to the new camp of Mangeni before the night. il would have to stop in the dark "in the open".

For the the authors, Lock and Quantrill: "The remiander of n°3 column, and Durnford's column wherever it might be, where to stay put it seems until the morrow. despite the enemy being evident in almost every direction, Chelmsford had decided to keep his force split for the next twenty four hours".(p.179 Zulu Victory")

As i  wrote previously, the Durnford's troops (essentially native cavalry) was not the most appropriate troops for the defense of a camp.

So, it's plausible for me  that Chelmsford has changed his mind about Dunrford between the 19 January, the "penultimate order issued to Dunrford  and the last one, "the one received on the morning of the 22nd" ("Idandhlwana and the Durnford'spaper's" by JW) or after the last one.

Maybe Chelmsford had in mind that Durnford ensures convoy protection after total or partial removal of the  Isandhlwana camp?

It's just a thought and only a thought.

As usual, happy to be corrected!

Cheers

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyThu Feb 19, 2015 10:50 pm

Topic unlocked. A good post by Ymob to restart the discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Feb 20, 2015 12:09 am

I'm sure if Durnford had been required to escort the convoy. It would have said so in the order brought in by Gardner.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Feb 20, 2015 2:32 am

littlehand wrote:
I'm sure if Durnford had been required to escort the convoy. It would have said so in the order brought in by Gardner.

Bonjour Littlehand,

Curiously, according to Gardner (from his memory), the order said nothing about Durnford.
(The order has been lost on the battlefield).
Curiously, according to HB about the move of the camp, Chelsmford said nothing to him about Durnford.
Durnford was the senior Officier in the camp (if his mission was to stay at Isandhlwana).
So, the order to move the camp should have been addressed to him (army protocol) or, at least, contained some information on his role. Crealock was renowned for the precision of his orders.

So, i am  sure for this reason and others that the mission of Durnford in Chelsmford's mind was not to stay at Isandhwana.
But i think that it's plausible that one of his missions, despite your argument, could be to protect the convoy on the road to the new camp at the Mangeni.
Cheers.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Feb 20, 2015 3:40 am

Highly speculative argument Frederic but you make a very good case for it.. Possibly to add to your thought is the opening statement by Durnford: "I shant be staying". Against it though is the statement(s) by Cochran that doesn't mention a word in that context. Would you not agree that he at least would have been aware of any orders in that regard?
Its always been a niggle about the orders to move the camp. Pullein was effectively given from 11 oclock to pack up, and HB hadn't yet arrived at the camp. Chelmsford did know only to well the condition of the road to the Mangeni, they couldn't even get the fairly light weight guns there. How were they to get the extremely heavy Battalion and Regimental wagons there by 7 oclock when it would be dark. 200 wagons moving that distance over that track? Your theory makes a lot of sense in practicality, but was Chelmsford practical? The obverse of course is that on a smaller scale Durnford packed his ( much smaller ) column at RD and got it all plus wagons to isandlwana in around 4 to 5 hours.
Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Feb 20, 2015 9:08 am

Bonjour Frank,
Highly speculative argument, i am agree! Very Happy

About Cochrane's statements:
Cochrane said that he didn't read the Crealock's order.
Cochrane said nothing about the Durnford's mission. Only that Durnford had said, viz: the column n°2 must go to Isandhlwana and Durnford's intention is not to stay at Isandhlwana.

About Chelsmford:
Chelmsford was practical after Isandhlwana, in the others battles of this war.

As you know, the preparation for the move of the camp would have taken many hours.
I don't say that before his arrival at Isandhlwana, Durnford knew with certainty that his FIRST mission was to protect the convoy on the road to the Mangeni area.
But i think that it's plausible that Chelmsford has in mind this mission for Durnford but later in the day or the next morning.

My other intention with this subject was to add to the arguments that the mission of Durnford's in the spirit of Chelmsford (the famous Crealock's order) was not to stay at Isandhlwana.
The HB and Gardner's orders were not sent to Dunrford (but to Pulleine) and mentioned nothing about Durnford.
So for Chelsmford, Durnford was not à Isandhlwana when he sent these orders.

Another though:
We think thaht the mission of Durnford was to go to the Mangeni (Crealock's order).
Strangly, Chelmsford, Crealock, Glyn, Cleary were not surprised during the day not to see him in this area.

Amitiés.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford - Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 14 EmptyFri Feb 20, 2015 9:52 am

Quote: The HB and Gardner's orders were not sent to Dunrford (but to Pulleine) and mentioned nothing about Durnford.
So for Chelsmford, Durnford was not à Isandhlwana when he sent these orders. And he wasn't ! He had already left the camp when Gardner arrived.
Im just looking at your theory with regard to other episodes. It could be argued that Chelmsford, before the message was received, wasn't going to move of so quickly. Wasn't he intending to scout the plateau on the 22nd? If so then there wouldn't have been any preplan to move camp on that day.
For your theory to work, Chelmsford would have had to have made up his mind that he was going to move camp at around 2 in the morning, or before he issued the order to Durnford. Couldn't have been the 21st because of his intention to scout the plateau.
Working on the rebuttal then Chelmsford could only have made up his mind to move camp much later in the day, during breakfast maybe? In that case there could not have been an order to Durnford. Quite possibly it could have been Chelmsfords unvoiced intention though.

Regards
There surely would have been a mention by either, Clery, Crealock or in later years Edward Durnford or Chelmsford.
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