Under Strength Companies at firing line Isandlwana

Hello all,
In Lock & Quantrill's Zulu Victory (page 193/194) mention is made by Curling in a letter to his Mother approximately three weeks after the Battle, "The Companies of the (1/24th) were very weak, no more than fifty (men) in each."  L & Q speculate the unaccounted for soldiers may have been engaged in other activities e.g.: packing up the camp. Now this is a serious defiency in firepower & would place a roughly effective strength of 300 Imperial infantry engaged in the firing line. There are further statements by Foley the conductor of government wagons, & Sergeant Walsh of the NMR broadly corroborating this. I am obviously keen to ascertain if this is held to be correct & would appreciate Forum Member's input.


Many Thanks

It would not be difficult to count heads in the last pay book to survive for the 1/24th which is for April/Sept 1878. I know there were 15 Lance Corporals but I haven't counted the total all ranks. Someone probably has. I guess it won't have changed much by Jan 79.

Steve

In L & Q's book it is speculated they were beginning to pack up the camp

Bonjour,
From memory, SNOOK gave a possible answer on this point in "HMCDB".
I also read on this forum (or "the other") a thought of Mr WHYBRA.
Cheers
Frédéric

Merci mon Ami. I shall certainly avail myself of your guidance.

Martini-Henry

Thoughts from Mr WHYBRA:
"There is nothing wrong with the Curling account but in no way does it corroborate the account posted by LHand. The phrase "running out of their tents" may well refer to the men running from the firing line to take up last stand positions as they ran through the tent area.
You also know full well that the alarm was sounded twice and that the second time Pulleine is known to have instructed everyone to be out of camp at the firing line. Pte. Wiiliams, himself a groom, confirms that he did so and joined the other servants on the line".
Source: "1879azw Forum / fri. 28, 2012 11:04am
Subject: "men were killed as they came out if their tents: Isandlwana"

About mike SNOOK, sorry but i am not sure his comment is in HMCDB(i don't have my copy at hand). Maybe in the other forum.
Cheers
Frédéric

Dear Ymob, I am not a member of any other forum, so I'm not "in the know" about that. I am not at home right now, however when I am able, I shall check out Lt Col Snook's book.

The comment by Mr Whybra about the testimony of Curling is on this forum (i indicated the title of the subject: "Men were killed...".
So if the men were not in the area of the canvas they were in the firing line.

About SNOOK, not sure i have read his comment in HMCDB. Maybe in the other forum: "Rorke's drift forum" (i am not a member of this forum)
I remember that Snook is very suspicious about the relevance of the comment from Curling (" "The Companies of the (1/24th) were very weak, no more than fifty in each." )
Cheers
Frédéric

Ymob to be honest I am still fairly new to this, but don't want to take things at face value, whenever I come across them in books. Hence the post, all help, information, advice, is gratefully received.

In my humble opinion, you are right not to take things at face value from books.

I give you an example about the report made by GARDNER the 22 January:

See Ian Knight "zulu rising" p.352.

GARDNER ...sent a note to his own "Heavy firing near left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports the BASUTOS falling back the whole force turned out and firing about 1 mile to left flank"./footnote p. 645 n°6 GARDNER report , WO 33/34, National Archives, London

-See Mike SNOOK "How can man die better" p.175.

GARDNER...and wrote hos own note in further amplification of the situation "Heavy firing to the left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the BASUTOS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)

-See Ron LOCK and Peter QUANTRILL "Zulu victory, the epic of Isandlwana and the cover-up"(Greenhill books-2005) p.204:
"Heavy firing to left of our camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the BASUTO's (NNH) are falling back. Whole camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)


-See R.W.F. DROOGLEVER "The road to isandhlwana" (Greenhill Books -1992) p.211.
...GARDNER penned hos own message and sent it by a second mounted man: "Heavy firing to the left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the ZULUS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)


it is not know where GARDNER had got the idea that the zulus were falling back.

-See Ian BECKETT"ISANDLWANA 1879" (Battles in focus-Brassey's-2003) p.63
GARDNER chose to amplify this further [ PULLEINE's 2nd note to CHELSMFORD] with his own message:""Heavy firing near left of camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports the ZULUS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)
Like PULLEINE's first message to CHELSMFORD, these convoyed no real sense of danger, particulary GARDNER's mistaken emphasis on a zulu withdrawal....


-See David CLAMMER in French (cheers!!!): "La guerre des zoulous" p.67
SHEPSTONE a demandé des renforts et fait état que les ZOULOUS se retirent.
C'était une étrange nouvelle à envoyer à ce moment là....Il est malaisé de deviner d'où "GARDINER"(sic) tirait l'opinion que les ZOULOUS battaient en retraîte...


What is GARDNER real testimony, zulus or basutos (NNH)?
From memory,The mistake came for the first time from Sir Reginald Coupland and his book "Zulu battle pièce" (1948)....
I.E: The correct answer is "basutos".

Cheers

Frédéric

Wow! You're perfectly correct, one word, can totally alter the meaning & context. I am deliberately reading Zulu Victory at a slower pace, as I am trying to fully digest the often bewildering & frankly contradictory material.

Hi All
From the books I've read over the years and people I've spoken to , it certainly appears that the companies were under strength , this was even before the crossing of the Buffalo , time lapsed men , and illness etc had taken a toll on the 1/ 24th if I remember correctly , happy to be corrected .
90th

Bonjour Gary,
I have read the same thing... but certainly not under 80 men the 22 january.
Cheers.
Frédéric

The Narrative of Field Operations connected with the Zulu War, for the 1/24th at Isandhlwana, gives 5 companies, 16 Officers and 403 NCOs and men. For 2/24th 1 company, 5 Officers and 178 NCOs and men.

Steve

Bonjour Steve,

As you know, the 5 Officers and 178 NCO and men of the 2/24th didn't belong all to the G Company of Lt Pope and Godwin-Austen but to the others coys with Chelmsford in the Mangeni.
Cheers.
Frédéric

According to the regimental history. "Left behind were G company 2nd btn. which was on picquet with its officers Lts Pope and Godwin-Austen; also QM Bloomfield, QMS Davis and the NCOs and men on guard, on duty or in hospital, making a total of three officers, two staff sergeants, six sergeants and 158 men of the 2nd btn. Besides the above, Bandsmaster Bullard and four boys were left behind."

Steve

In "Hill of the Sphinx", JACKSON mentions the possibility of two 2/24th coys à Isandhlwana:
The "G" coy and a "composite" coy.
Cheers
Frédéric

Yes he says Dyer and Griffiths, who came back with Gardner, may have formed a composite company of those from other companies of the 2/24th who were left behind on on guard duty etc. So about 98 for G company and about 80 others.

Steve

rusteze wrote:

Yes he says Dyer and Griffiths, who came back with Gardner, may have formed a composite company of those from other companies of the 2/24th who were left behind on on guard duty etc. So about 98 for G company and about 80 others.

Steve

Martini-Henry:

1st Bn 24th (offrs + men) on 22 January 1879:

B Company (Pondoland) (Harrisson) - 110

D + G Companies (Helpmekaar) - 215

1/24th men with No 3 column (Chelmsford) - 35 (mostly mounted infantry)

1/24th men in Pietermaritzburg with families, or Natal or elsewhere - 16

1/24th men at Rorke's Drift - 12

Isandlwana (A, C, E, F, H + band) 1/24th men 410 + 10 survivors = 420 [plus G composite Company 2/24th + a few of the band - 175]    

1/24th men (location unknown probably being drafted back to UK) - 25


So the average company strength of 1/24th companies at Isandlwana was about 80.  Whereas Pondoland was 110 and those at Helpmekaar about 105.

I trust this helps.

This is fascinating & helpful. Essentially Coy strength figures are the same today.

Kenny

The reference to 1/24th men in Pietermaritzberg with families is interesting. Do we know where in Pietermaritzberg they were, or any more about them? I had assumed families had been left in Cape Town.

Steve

There are some men of the 1/24th at RD. See thé essay by Me Whybra about Jenkins

Thank you, I shall, when I'm back in internet land. I'm using my dwindling 4G.

England's sons by Mr Julian Whybra p.72
11 men of thé 24th at RD the 22 january.
See thé footnote 3
Cheers

Another source à bout thé men of thé 1/24 th at RD
Julian Whybra's essay: "Priva te david jenkins and a contemporay roll of Re defendeurs"
Studies in thé ZW 1879 II
Cheers

Rorke’s Drift
25B/135 Pte BECKETT, William 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Died of wounds Rorke’s Drift 23/1/1879
25B/568 Pte DESMOND, Patrick 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Survived Rorke’s Drift
1-24/1861 Pte HORRIGAN, William 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Killed Rorke’s Drift
25B/295 Pte JENKINS, David 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Survived Rorke's Drift
25B/841 Pte JENKINS, James Edmund 1/24 Clasp 1879 Killed Rorke’s Drift
25B/625 Pte NICHOLAS, Edward 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Killed Rorke’s Drift
25B/572 Pte PARRY, Thomas 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Rorke’s Drift?
25B/372 Pte PAYTON, Thomas 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Survived Rorke’s Drift
1-24/1542 Pte ROY, William 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Survived Rorke’s Drift. Awarded DCM.
25B/104 Pte TURNER, Henry 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 St Helena detachment 1876-77 Survived Rorke’s Drift
1-24/447 Pte WATERS, John 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Survived Rorke’s Drift
25B/56 Sgt WILSON, Edward 1/24 Clasp 1877-8-9 Survived Rorke’s Drift Died 19/2/1891
Total 12

Parry. Is not on thé list of my edition

You have my list prepared before discussions with Julian. There is a query with Parry (?) we agreed to delete him. So 11 from 1/24th at RD.

Thank YOU very much.
Cheers
Frédéric

I agree that there were approximately 417 members of the 1/24 at Isandlwana who are not already known to have been performing other duties – ie mounted infantry, rocket battery, staff, etc.  I am basing this off of England’s Sons by Mr. Whybra. However, I think what is not being considered here is the number of these who weren’t part of the line.  Of the 417, only 334 were privates.  Of these privates, 10 were probably pioneers, 4 were part of the rocket battery (I’ve already accounted for the other 4 who were known to have been with the rocket battery), and approximately 25 were band members.  This leaves only 295 privates for the 5 companies, or approximately 59 privates per company.  This is very close to Curling’s estimation.  Add to this the NCO’s (there were 19 sergeants/ lance sergeants, so approximately 4 sergeants per company; there were 16 corporals, so approximately 3 corporals per company; and 1 color sergeant per company) and we get approximately 67 men per company, not including the 2 drummers and 1-2 officers.  Still very much below the 80-90 men one would expect of a full size company.  

As far as G company of the 2/24, there appears to be approximately 82 NCO’s and privates, which is more in line with what would be expected.

Bonjour,
I have no Time no. I'il answer to your post later in the day.
Cheers
Frédéric

Bonjour,

There are two essential points in the testimonies given by Lt CURLING (R.A.) about the strength of the coys :

First extract :
« I got a message to turn out at once and we got ready in about 10 minutes, forming up by the 1/24th on their parade ground. The companies were very weak, no more than 50 in each » (p.88 / « The Curling letters of the Zulu war » by A. Greaves and Brian Best»

According to Lock and Quantrill in « Zulu Victory » (p.193)
« If that was correct, it would mean there were only 300 infantry in the firing line out of the 580 known to have been in the camp that day ».
The 2 authors forgot in their estimation the possible composite company of the 2/24th (« Hill of the Sphinx » by Jackson)


Second extract :
« We trotted of the camp thinking to take up another position but found it in possession of the enemy, who were killing the men as they ran out their tents » (p.94 / « The Curling letters of the Zulu war » by A. Greaves and Brian Best» )

The two extracts suggest that the soldiers who were not with their companies were in the tent area.
This conclusion implies that Pulleine and the men at the camp were unaware until the end of the battle of the danger represented by the Zulus.

I think this conclusion is a nonsence despite the arguments given by Lock and Quantrill in « Zulu Victory » (p.194).

As Mr WHYBRA wrote on this forum ( already quoted yesterday):

« The phrase "running out of their tents" may well refer to the men running from the firing line to take up last stand positions as they ran through the tent area.
You also know full well that the alarm was sounded twice and that the second time Pulleine is known to have instructed everyone to be out of camp at the firing line. Pte. Wiiliams, himself a groom, confirms that he did so and joined the other servants on the line".
Source: Subject: "men were killed as they came out if their tents: Isandlwana" fri. 28, 2012 11:04am
In the same subject, JW wrote:

“I suspect that the "men coming out of their tents" were actually men passing through the tents - anything else is inconceivable”. (sun. Dec. 23 Dec. 2012)

The member“Drummer-Boy” added: “

“all the soldiers around the camp were marched to the firing line and the retreat path of E and F Coy was right through the tents.”(sun. Dec. 23 Dec. 2012)


I note that in the first testimony given by CURLING the men were “on their parade ground” not on the firing line.
At this moment, nobody in camp thought that the camp was under an attack (Essex / Cochrane ).
Maybe, a portion of each infantry company was employed at others duties?

Ian Knight wrote in “Zulu rising” (p.369)
[At the beginning of the attack], “most of the men still left in camp -officers' servants, grooms, cooks, atillery artificers, meical, commissariat and transport staff, civilian wagons-drivers and black voorlopers -had emerged from among the tents to see the battle unfold”.


Where were during the fight the men of the band?

“Private Wilson of the 1/24th band, who was acting as a streatcher-bearers had fallen in with the companies on their parade grounds, following them out as thy fell in the firing positions” ( “Zulu Rising” p.376 / quoted in Holme).

“As the intensity of the Zulu attack inceased (...), SHEPERD [after a while ] the streatcher-bearers to remain close to the hospital tents”. (Zulu Rising” p.377)


Where were during the fight the pioneers?
Probably with the supply of ammunitions.

So, ultimately, about + -70 men were on the front line for companies of 1 / 24th, probably more for those of the 2/24th


Cheers

Frédéric

The total number of men parading with the 24th on the 22nd were 585 (413 from the 1st bn, 172 from the 2nd bn.).
In addition there were
7 men in camp attached to the Staff (4 from the 1st bn and 3 from the 2nd bn)
5 attached to the IMI (all 1st bn)
1 attached to the ACTD (2nd bn)
and 8 attached to the Rocket Battery (all 1st bn)
totalling 606 (430 from the 1st bn and 176 from the 2nd bn)
They are listed individually in England's Sons.

Re the 1st bn: 413 men divided between 5 coys gives 82.6 men per coy.
It's quite correct that some men would not have been with their coys.  The band acted as stretcher bearers and ammo carriers. One pioneer per coy would have been at the ammo waggons - this reduces the number available on the line to 383 or 76.6 men per coy.

Alongside this we have the evidence of men like Williams who said that everyone was ordered out of camp to the line - thus the 7 from the 24th, plus 4 officers and 5 ORs on the Staff, and 6 from the 90th - a total of 22.
This would raise the number to 405 (81 per coy).

If the 50 men of the R.A. not out with the guns are included then the total becomes 455 (91 per coy).

Some men would have been in hospital of course though some were mobile and could handle a rifle.  One can play with the statistics endlessly but whichever way you play it, it's difficult to get below a figure of around 80.


As for Parry his 'account' is riddled with inconsistencies.  He should have been with D coy at Helpmekaar and his story is almost certainly fraudulent.

Sir,
I have the greatest respect for you & your figures. Can I assume that my own ancestor who came up with Chard & remained in camp (4x5 Fd Coy RE) are included in these figures?

Warm Regards

Mr Whybra,
Thank you very much for this analysis which will hopefully end the myth of understaffed companies on the firing line.
Cheers

M-Henry
I've not included the one officer (staff) and newly-arrived 4 RE men, the 4 special-service officers, the NNPC, the 23 ACTD attached civilian personnel (the waggon drivers, conductors), the 5 civilians acting as servants/interpreters or indeed any African civilians in possession of a weapon not already assigned specific duties.
Some of these were indubitably on the firing line (Coghill's civilian servant was seen firing a rifle) and would have increased the firepower still further. I cannot state with certainty anything about the four RE men as there is no primary source which mentions them. Personally I think it is more likely that they would have been assigned to assisting the pioneers at the ammo waggons or assigned to a front-line position.

Thank you sir, the myth of diminished Coy's is exactly that - a myth!
Unless of course anyone has anything else to contribute? I am happy to discuss & learn about this,as I feel a lot of the (collective) attention is in apportioning blame, or in fault finding. I must confess that it is the ordinary fighting men, & their experiences, that hold a fascination for myself.

Regards

Martini-Henry,
Have you got a photography of your ancestror killed at Isandhlwana?
Cheers

Unfortunately no...& I am really frustrated about that.

As I am.

We are both of us Isandlwana Orphans after a fashion....

As we all are Martini - Henry , a photo of your relative would've been excellent to see
90th

I keep hoping that I will come across some group photograph on the net...so far I've struck out.

Hi Martini-Henry
I'm sorry , I may have missed it , but what was your ancestors name ? .
90th

Sapper 9312 Henry Cuthbert

Henry Cuthbert
Born c. 1845
Enlisted 5/8/1867, age 22 years 11 months
Re-engaged to complete 21 years service - Aldershot 11/7/1878

Served with 15th Company RE c. 1875-1876
Posted to 5th Field Company RE 1/1/1877 (Sandhurst)

NB a brother Forum member greatly assisted me in supplying information.

I have been looking into the ideal strength of an Infantry Battalion, a number of resources have stated that an ideal strength of a Battalion should be: 1 Lt-Col.; 2 Majors; 8 Captains; 8 Lieutenants; 8 2nd-Lieutenants; 1 Adjutant; 1 Quartermaster; 1 Sergeant-Major; 1 Quartermaster Sergeant; 1 Bandmaster; 1 Drum-Major; 1 Orderly Room Clerk; 1 Armourer Sergeant; 1 Paymaster-Sergeant; 1 Sergeant-Cook; 1 Pioneer Sergeant; 8 Colour-Sergeants; 1 Sergeant Instructor of Musketry; 32 Sergeants; 16 Drummers; 40 Corporals; 760 Privates. of the other-ranks 20 would be Bandsmen & 13 Pioneers

A Company (ideally) should have been a Captain; a Lieutenant; a 2nd (or Sub) Lieutenant & 107 other-ranks, Eight companies would form a battalion

on 22nd January 1879, when 1st/24th fielded a Brevet Lt.-Colonel; an Acting-Major; An Adjutant; Three Captains; Five Lieutenants; a 2nd-Lieutenant; A Paymaster of the A.P.D.; A Quartermaster & five very understrength companies and the battalion H.Q.'s of 402 other-ranks.

Source

Victorian Wars

Hi Martini - Henry
Thanks for that , wasnt Henry Cuthbert one of the five sappers taken by Chard to Isandlwana on the morning of the 22nd Jan ?
I know the name from somewhere ! .
90th

90th wrote:

Hi Martini - Henry
Thanks for that , wasnt Henry Cuthbert one of the five sappers taken by Chard to Isandlwana on the morning of the 22nd Jan ?
I know the name from somewhere ! .
90th

There is a quote to sapper Henry Cuthbert in "England's sons" p.7 (D. Royal Engineers)
Cheers