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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
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» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
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» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
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» What happened next
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» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
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» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
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» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
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» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
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» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
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» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
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» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
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» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
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» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
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» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
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» England's Sons 9th edition
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» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
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» Militaria Sale
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» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
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 Medals for the Deceased

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7578
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptySun Sep 27, 2015 11:00 am

A question for the medal collectors of the forum.
I do apologise in advance for my ignorance but has any comparison ever been done between the medals actually issued and the roll of the dead and survivors from iSandlwana. If it has ever been correlated say between the works of researchers such as JW and the official lists, what has been the result in terms of numbers etc.
I have always been lead to believe that rolls for the 1/24th and 2/24th at iSandlwana were lost, if that were the case on what basis were medals issued.

I look forward to someone explaining medals 101.

Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptySun Sep 27, 2015 12:04 pm

Frank

Don't know about the comparison question, but can confirm the medal rolls were not lost. The one for 1/24th was completed at Gosport on 20 August 1880 and is at Kew. It does not say killed at Isandhlwana, just "dead" against the relevant name.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7578
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptySun Sep 27, 2015 12:51 pm

Thanks Steve and the 2/24th etc?
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptySun Sep 27, 2015 5:11 pm

The 2/24th medal roll is also at Kew, compiled on 23 October 1880 at Secunderabad. I may have misread your question though. The current quarter pay and muster rolls were indeed destroyed at Isandhlwana, but the previous quarter survive. Here is the last one for 1/24th, September quarter 1878.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve
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Kenny



Posts : 405
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 8:49 am

The pay & master rolls do not indicate the Company to which the soldier was posted to. So what we is missing and lost is the daily detail books held by the Company Colour Sergeants. We can have a good guess who might have been in H Company (Capt Wardell, CSgt Woolfe) - as there is a separate roll when the Company was based on St Helena 1876-77. One of the difficulties is that all these rolls - muster, medal, casualty returns etc were hand-written - so some discrepancies naturally occur over numbers and names. And of course, most modern researchers tend to rely on printed sources such as newspapers and the Forsyth roll which also suffer from some transcription errors.

There is an interesting story - Pte Arthur Atkins 25B/1300 who served with 2/24th and was out with LC force on 22 January 1879. Arthur survived the AZW, returned home to the village of Battle, near Brecon and lived until 1939. He used to go into the Priory Church (now Cathedral) at Brecon - point out to friends that his name 'A Atkins' was (incorrectly) on the Regimental Roll of Honour of those killed at Isandlwana. But of course, it was Alfred Atkins, Pte 1/24-1230 who was the one killed on the fateful day.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Thanks Kenny, that's quite right. As far as I know nothing at all remains of the daily detail books, even from before Isandhlwana. Presumably none were retained by the War Office or the Regiment? So we have no way of knowing the make up of individual companies in South Africa at any time - apart from the one on duty in St Helena?

Steve
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves

Posts : 748
Join date : 2009-10-18

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 1:28 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
A question for the medal collectors of the forum.
I do apologise in advance for my ignorance but has any comparison ever been done between the medals actually issued and the roll of the dead and survivors from iSandlwana. If it has ever been correlated say between the works of researchers such as JW and the official lists, what has been the result in terms of numbers etc.
I have always been lead to believe that rolls for the 1/24th and 2/24th at iSandlwana were lost, if that were the case on what basis were medals issued.

I look forward to someone explaining medals 101.

Cheers

I was under that impression as well.
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cam simpson



Posts : 90
Join date : 2014-10-10

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 4:10 pm

Steve, whats the reference for the 24th Regiments Pay records as I'm trying to track down the pay records for the Frontier Light Horse. The FLH records aren't held in SA and probably very foolishly I'm hoping they're in the UK somewhere or the same series as the 24th.

Cam.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 4:22 pm

Cam
They are in WO12. The 1/24th pay and muster book for 1875/76 is WO 12/4131. The number increases by one for each year onwards.
Steve
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Kenny



Posts : 405
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 5:15 pm

If to go to the National Archives Kew site, there are a number of documents held relating to the Frontier Light Horse. I doubt that any are available on-line for you to view.

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Click on discovery catalogue - then advanced search
Enter key word - Frontier Light Horse
Within reference - WO
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 6:12 pm

Going back to Frank's original question, I am not sure that the records destroyed at Isandhlwana are really important in regard to who was awarded a medal. Whether or not an individual died or survived, they would have been entitled to the same medal because they were there. So how did they know who was there? We know that the detailed battalion musters for the three months up to September 1878 survive. They show whether an individual soldier was on duty, in hospital, in prison etc. on that particular day each month. The Depot would know who had been drafted to the battalions during the period up to Isandhlwana, and who may have been transferred away (to appear on someone else's pay books) or who had been discharged. We do not know what other records existed outside of those carried in the field by the battalions because they have all been discarded. All that is retained in the archives is the Pay and Muster books compiled at the War Office for each battalion of each regiment. Looking at the receipt dates, the information seems to reach the War Office about four months in arrears. What you can guarantee is that whoever survived would have been demanding their pay, and those who did not.......well. Not everyone of course claimed their medals, so what reason might there be for that - deserters comes to mind who might have been presumed dead, and if it happened late on there might not have been a record other than with the battalion.

I think looking at  the surviving centrally held pay and muster books and the medal rolls now would not be comparing like with like. But at the time there was probably more to go on that also does not now survive.

Steve
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Kenny



Posts : 405
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyMon Sep 28, 2015 7:02 pm

There were a number of 24th Foot killed at Isandlwana who on the medal roll were awarded the medal with '1879' clasp, yet they were entitled to clasp '1877-8-9'. The NOK knowing no better assumed '1879' clasp was correct.
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cam simpson



Posts : 90
Join date : 2014-10-10

Medals for the Deceased Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medals for the Deceased   Medals for the Deceased EmptyWed Sep 30, 2015 10:34 am

Cheers Steve and Kenny….appreciated. I looked at a lot of the NA material, quite possibly they are with the Buller papers in Devon; my next avenue to pursue.

Cam.
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