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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Another Mystery Photograph! Empty
PostSubject: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 11:13 am

Who is this Zulu War veteran?

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John Young Collection.

Double points if you can tell me what his occupation was at the time the photograph was taken?

John Y.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 12:02 pm

Is it Samuel Wassall?
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 12:27 pm

For a moment I thought it might be E S Browne VC, but the cap is putting me off.

Steve
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 12:34 pm

A striking resemblance to Dalton
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Another Mystery Photograph! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 2:08 pm

Possibly Edmund Fowler, in which case the photo is pre 1910 as he still owns the medals and he ran a fruit shop.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 2:45 pm

Just had a look at Edmund Fowler, I bet your on the money.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 3:03 pm

He sold his medals around 1910 so if it is him then its prior to then.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 3:33 pm

Edmund also a ran a pub, so sad that he sold his VC, I suppose £42 was a lot of money back then.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 3:40 pm

Looks like he was lucky to have kept it in the first place.

"Forfeited good conduct pay 31 Dec 1886. In cells 15 Jan 87. Court Martialled Devonport 24 Jan 87. Guilty embezzlment, reduced to ranks and VC and medals forfeited. Medals restored April 87, reportedly by QV who stated that his detention was sufficient punishment." That is all confirmed on the medal roll.

Steve
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 5:25 pm

Edmund Fowler VC

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Last edited by waterloo50 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 5:44 pm

Soooooooooo double points for moi.

Just don't pass the Kryptonit.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 5:52 pm

Hang on Clark Kent! Fat lady hasn't sung yet. Be really funny if we have produced a potted history of someone else! Does he look like somebody suffering from varicose veins? (which the army was very quick to say he could not possibly have contracted in the Sudan).

PS Actually he does have a slightly "pinched" look.
Steve
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 7:54 pm

I'm clearly rubbish at name the face but I really do believe that Frank has got it right. I'm assuming JY knows who the person in the photograph is, he wasn't genuinely asking for help was he, I assumed it was a game.
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Another Mystery Photograph! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 9:31 pm

Waterloo50,

A game it is indeed, and the game is still afoot!

No-one is even close yet.

Fowler had two more medals to my knowledge...

John Y.

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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 9:36 pm

I have been saying all along that Frank wasn't even close.

*South Africa Medal/Clasp 1877-8-9 [Pte Edmond Fowler 90th Foot] *Egypt Medal 1882/No clasp [373 Cpl E Fowler] *Khedive's Bronze Star 1882 [Egypt] [“373” on reverse]


Last edited by waterloo50 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 10:05 pm

Is he one of the chaps from Ruddington ?
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Another Mystery Photograph! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 10:47 pm

LH,

You are so cold Ruddington in Nottinghamshire might as well be the North Pole...

John Y.
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 11:45 pm

Give us another clue. I have my scarf on now!
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2265
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 11:51 pm

William ALLEN?
Cheers
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http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyTue Nov 24, 2015 11:58 pm

Frederic,

I think you should ask if you could possibly share Littlehand's scarf, as you are equally cold.

Littlehand,

I'll keep it going for a while before I give a clue.  Suffice to say that an officer would not knot a tie like that, or would they?

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2265
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Another Mystery Photograph! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 12:16 am

I suspect a trap with the notion of Zulu war (not easy to write with mittens)......
Cheers
Frédéric
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http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Another Mystery Photograph! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 12:26 am

Frederic,

Hardly a trap mon ami!

A Zulu War veteran for sure.

John Y.
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 2:48 am

I'll make a soldier of you Hooky!
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90th

90th

Posts : 10137
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Another Mystery Photograph   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 3:50 am

Was the VC won in the AZW ? . If the VC was earnt in the AZW , I'm going to have a stab , and go with Surgeon Reynolds , Doctor when the photo was taken ?
90th Salute
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 5:26 am

90th,

In answer to your first question, no the Victoria Cross was not awarded for the Zulu War. Which obviously puts pay to your next suggestion.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 6:05 am

Bugger !
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 6:56 am

The obvious one that springs to mind is William Griffiths but he never got to wear his SAGS.
Possibilities:
Brevet Major Edric Gifford ADC to Wolseley
?
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
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Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 9:12 am

Frank,

Do you really think a Peer of the Realm would have an unbuttoned collar?

He would look as speck and span as the inhabitants of Boulders Beach wouldn't he?

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 10:22 am

John
During my time in the Army I was driver to two peers of the realm, one quite a prominent figure at the moment. So yes after seeing their shenanigins I could picture it. But yes it probably wasn't the best of guesses ( still smarting that it wasn't Fowler)

Regards
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 11:20 am

How about Private James Osborne VC 58th Foot? He won his VC at Wesselstroom in 1st Boer War 1881 and was entitled to the SAGS.

Steve
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 12:02 pm

John Young wrote:
Who is this Zulu War veteran?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
John Young Collection.

Double points if you can tell me what his occupation was at the time the photograph was taken?

John Y.

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Very Possible!!! agree
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 12:09 pm

Steve,

Well done! How about his occupation at the time that photograph was taken - circa 1899?

John Y.
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 12:16 pm

If it is him, he ended up labouring on the Rothschild Estate.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 12:40 pm

It was the Kryptonite did it sir!
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 1:15 pm

Littlehand,

Come on labourer is too general a term, he was a stone breaker on the Ashridge Estate, near Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire. The estate was owned by the Brownlow family rather than the Rothschilds, although The Hon. Walter Rothschild was involved with supporting a fund for the roadmenders of the estate, which included James Osborne V.C.

John Y.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 2:02 pm

In the end it was a quite narrow range of possibilities once John had given us a clue that it was not an AZW VC. That means it can only have been won in a late victorian war for which no campaign medal was issued - and 1st Boer War is about it I think.

PS An interesting story of how his medals were destroyed in an air raid on Belfast and MOD refused to replace it.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Steve
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 10:28 pm

John Young wrote:
Littlehand,

Come on labourer is too general a term, he was a stone breaker on the Ashridge Estate, near Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire.  The estate was owned by the Brownlow family rather than the Rothschilds, although The Hon. Walter Rothschild was involved with supporting a fund for the roadmenders of the estate, which included James Osborne V.C.

John Y.

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What's your source John to show otherwise???
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 11:26 pm

Littlehand,

'The Sketch' of 8th February, 1899 page 100.

'...Very different has been the lot of James Osborne, V.C., who is now a stone breaker at Berkhampstead [sic]. The roadmenders were entertained the other day to dinner by some cyclists and others. The Hon. Walter Rothschild subscribed to the fund, and the Countess Brownlow presented each of the roadmenders on the Ashridge estate with a scarlet jersey, which added a touch of colour to the scene. Among the guests was the old soldier I have mentioned, James Osborne, V.C., and he was asked recount how he he won this much-coveted distinction. .... For this daring deed he was awarded the Victoria Cross, which is dated Feb. 22, 1881. A pension of £10 per annum was also given him. This pittance would be of little use, so he ekes out a living by working on the roads. Hence his presence at the Roadmenders' Dinner.'

As you can see the only mention of one of the Rothschilds is as a subscriber to a fund.

The account is accompanied by the same photograph I have reproduced by Newman & Company, which is entitled 'A V.C. man who is now breaking stones.'

John Y.
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Chard1879

Chard1879

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyWed Nov 25, 2015 11:29 pm

John, don't believe everything you read in the newspapers!
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2134
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PostSubject: Re: Another Mystery Photograph!   Another Mystery Photograph! EmptyThu Nov 26, 2015 12:21 am

Nor on websites.

John Y.
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