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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
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» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
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» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
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» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
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» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
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» Militaria Sale
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» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
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» Rorkes drift Hotel
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2125
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

A couple of new groups. Empty
PostSubject: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 11:21 am

Yesterday was the London Photographic Fair, and armed with a Mothers' Day pass from the Memsahib I ventured out to meet up with fellow forum member Isandula.

Here's what I found:

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Officers and other-ranks of 88th (The Connaught Rangers) Regiment, The Devil's Own, who had served in the Crimean War.  Photographed on St Patrick's Day 1875.  Two of the officers and a number of the o/r's were still serving in 1877-8-9.
John Young Collection

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The key to the above photograph.
John Young Collection

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A School of Musketry, Hythe, circa 1874/5
John Young Collection

The group have both Sniders and at least one Martini-Henry.  Within the group are two officers from the 24th, see close-up.

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John Young Collection

Can anyone put a name to either of the officers?  I wondered if the seated one might be Sugden?

John Y.
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90th

90th

Posts : 10129
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

A couple of new groups. Empty
PostSubject: A couple of new groups    A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 11:49 am

Nice one JY . Did Isandula find anything ? . Could it be Dunbar standing ?
90th
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2125
Join date : 2013-09-08
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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

A couple of new groups. Empty
PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 3:50 pm

90th,

It could be Dunbar, hopefully Kenny will be able to assist regarding Hythe courses.

If isandula sees this I'll let him answer for himself, as he did find something but didn't retain it.

The London Photographic Fair isn't what it used to be.

All I saw were a couple of run-of-the-mill Prince Imperial photographs.  A vastly overpriced Bishop Colenso cdv at £100, a copy of which I picked up on EBay for £3.

No success at the nearby Bloomsbury Book Fair I had all the Zulu War material on offer there.

John Y.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 6:34 pm

90th wrote:
Nice one JY . Did Isandula find anything ? . Could it be Dunbar standing ?
90th
Upcher?
cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2125
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 8:01 pm

Frederic,

It is plausible given the birth date of his second child, that Upcher was in the U.K.

The Durham County Record Office have some nice photographs of him under Durham Light Infantry section.

Do you think he is the standing officer?

Regards,

John Y.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 8:37 pm

Mr Young,
I am sorry, honestly i have no serious evidence to tell that this chap is Upcher.
I have 2 or 3 well know photographies of Upcher and for me the unknow officer from the 24th looks like him
It seems to me that your chap is not Dunbar.
For the other chap, maybe Porteous ( not the photo with Degacher and Cavaye, not the photography in shadbot) but the 2 photographies of group (From memory;1878, daly coghill, glyn, frere, atkinson, white....) and in India (from memory again) with Upcher, Melvill, dunbar, Glyn...Fron memory, Porteous was instructor'of musketry, no?
Only a thought, nothing serious...
Cheers
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 8:39 pm

Yes, Upcher is the standing officer.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyMon Mar 07, 2016 8:56 pm

I have only one photography of Sugden with a big beard ( india c.1871 with Pope, Symons, Pulleine, Younghusband.... )
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: A couple of new groups    A couple of new groups. EmptyTue Mar 08, 2016 11:40 am

Hi JY / Frederic
In my humble opinion , I'm still leaning toward it being Dunbar as opposed to Upcher , but it wouldn't surprise me if the chap was neither ! . Joker
90th Very Happy
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyTue Mar 08, 2016 12:27 pm

90th wrote:
Hi JY / Frederic
In my humble opinion ,  I'm still leaning toward it being Dunbar as opposed to Upcher , but it wouldn't surprise me if the chap was neither ! . Joker
90th Very Happy

Me too!!! Very Happy Very Happy Salute
Cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2125
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyTue Mar 08, 2016 9:22 pm

Frederic,

We can discounted Porteous here's his course details, pre-the 1874 uniform changes and introduction of the Martini-Henry. Whereas the group have both.

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August 1870 Hythe Musketry Course.
(John Young Collection.

John Y.

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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyTue Mar 08, 2016 10:13 pm

Thank you Mr Young for sharing your information. From memory, Pope was also a graduate of the school of musketry. In 1871, Poe was very slender, but I do not think he is the chap on the photography....The unknown chap seems too older.
Cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 6:49 am

Bonjour,
I don't know if it's useful:
Pullen, was sergeant instructor of musketery from 1873 until July 1877.
Hill of the Sphinx p.76
cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 8:44 am

Just for information:
F. Carrington was the Instructor of musketery just before Porteous.
Same source (Hill of the Sphinx)

Cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2125
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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 8:51 am

Frederic,

There was a group with Pope at Hythe on EBay within the last year, unfortunately I didn't win the auction. So yes we can discount Pope.

Roles of Instructor of Musketry and Sergeant Instrucor of Musketry would obviously change from time to time within the battalion(s), with promotions or other postings.

John Y.
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:24 pm

Mr Young,
Thank you.
Do you think Upcher is the standing officer?
Cheers
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: A couple of new groups    A couple of new groups. EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 12:57 am

Bonjour Frederic
I dont ! Joker Joker Joker Joker . I'm sticking with Dunbar Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
90th You need to study mo
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of new groups.   A couple of new groups. EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 11:48 am

Gary,
Dunbar... No  No  No
It's a wrong card ! take a look again, again  and again at your precious album of photograhies of the 24th( I know you have a genuine photography of Dunbar) Very Happy Very Happy Salute
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90th

90th

Posts : 10129
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Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: A couple of new groups    A couple of new groups. EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 7:19 pm

Bonjour Frederic Joker
That was the book I looked at to come up with Dunbar ! Hhahahahahahaha . I still think it's him Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy . Possibly I wouldn't make a very good Gendarme ! Salute Joker Joker
90th agree
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