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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...

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John Young

John Young

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 am

I have chosen to start this a new thread rather than it get lost amongst another one.

This is James Lloyd's well-known photograph of the wagons at Isandlwana.  The text is handwritten possibly by Lloyd himself.

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Isandlana Hill - relics of the Camp in situ
John Young Collection.

Given what was recorded as being removed on 21st May 1879, I thought I would go over it closely.  Sadly I have come up with more questions than answers.

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Is this a damaged wagon on the left or a two-wheeled cart?

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If this photograph was taken either on 21st May or 27th June, why are there only two horses visible?  The first being an almost entirely mounted affair, 27th June thirty horsemen.  Personally I don't think the men in the photograph are regular British soldiers at all.

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Here's a close-up, there is one man in what appears to be a light coloured suit to the left of the image.

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Again to clarify the image, note another man in the light coloured clothing.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

JOhn Y.


Last edited by John Young on Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 9:31 am

John
That vehicle is far to long to be a two wheel, I don't think the extention is a disalboom, even then it would be to long for a two wheeler. I would rather say the front wheels are in a donga.
Man in a light suit? Butterfly collector? period?
Ive put a magnifying glass over the shots and believe that the two horse are in profile but there are more head/tail on.
There is what looks like a string of men in a row heading towards the camera. scouring the camp area maybe?
The area of the wagon in the donga is the area I identified the 'Digger' photo to have been taken.
its becoming more and more of a likely hood that the photos were taken over different times.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 9:35 am

Bottomright corner, soldier?
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ymob

ymob

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 9:55 am

Bonjour,
I don't know if it's useful, I have a testimony about a two-wheeled cart of the rocket battery "close to the hill".
Cheers
Frédéric
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John Young

John Young

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 10:23 am

Frank,

The photographer for Stabb/Bowker image - the butterfly collector - was George Taylor Ferneyhough, and we know that was prior to June 1880. Whereas this photograph bears Lloyd's raised stamp.

Where are you seeing the other horses?

Where is the photographer's own wagon, I wonder?

Frederic,

We were on the same path there, but as Frank mentions and I now tend to agree that the front wheels are more than likely in a donga.

John Y.
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barry

barry

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Lloyds pictures of Isandlwana   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 10:30 am

Hi John,

The cart in question is a standard  Cape cart, like the one to its right, only it is without its two front wheels. They were removed perhaps to fix other carts or were damaged beyond further use.
An observation is that all the discernable carts in these picture are contractors 4 wheel Cape style carts.
Well, if the image of what appears to be a man in light colour clothing is human, it must be about 10 feet tall ( maybe a Yeti )., c.f height of horses to the right at the same distance from the camera lens.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Young

John Young

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 10:39 am

Barry,

Trust me they are human, are may be you not seeing what I am. One appears to be in a chair, the other is squatting on the ground.

Frank,

Here's your soldier, but he appears to have moved during the exposure.

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John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 11:39 am

Reminds me of my school photo when a friend of mine ran from one side round the back and appears twice, once either side of the group.
But would you agree he appears to be wearing cross belt?
Sorry being facetious on the Butterfly Collector.
Assuming therefore that May 21st wasn't the dates of the photos, if it were it would have to be very late in the day for all the wagons to have been moved.
So the instances to be tied together are:
Paucity of wagons.
Very few mounted men
A soldier digging a grave
Possibly a further soldier moving around.
Couldn't have been Black because there aren't enough wagons around.
Doesn't tie in with Marshalls visit. The soldier digging a grave wasn't digging near the colonial area but rather the 24th stand, and as we know Glynn issued instructions not to touch the 24th.
So possibly one of the subsequent Black visits between the 20th and 26th of June. As this photo is confined to the saddle the possibility then exists that the missing elements, the 30 Dragoon Guards and the colonials were of camera looking at the other areas on the down slope towards the donga.
Or yet again, is it part of Bromheads visit 19th September, could explain the lack of significant numbers of horses, potentially as few as 6 horses. And also explain the lines of men fanned out in search lines.
Do we know where Lloyd was in September?

Cheers

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rusteze

rusteze

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 12:10 pm

The possible soldier Frank referred to and are there possibly two others at the boom of the cart on the right? Is that cart loaded?
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Steve
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rusteze

rusteze

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 12:23 pm

Some of these have got to be cairns haven't they? Others are groups of men sat around smoking fires?
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Steve
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Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 12:58 pm

Steve
The fire idea sounds good. This is what the battlefield feels like in May. This by the way is one of the 'Pope' cairns
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Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 3:02 pm

John/Steve
Looking at your enlargement of the 'soldier' moving around and Steves comments that the one wagon seemed loaded. Look carefully at the scene. There is an open box mounted at the front with other boxes adjacent. Behind that wagon there are three other wagons. the closest being a flat bed. Then look at the 'digger' photo. Behind him is an open box mounted above the small front wheel on a wagon with to the right three other wagons. There is a jumble of goods in front of the small wheel on both photos. It would appear that the 'digger' photo was taken alongside the wagon with the open box. So possibly the moving soldier in the enlargement is the soldier doing the digging. Ive never been able to pick that up before as my copy of that photo is cropped on the right hand side.
Next question is could one of you blow up specialists blow up the extreme right hand, blurred corner to see if the rear of the 'ambulance is in the frame.
If we take this one stage further and look at the wagon with the front wheels in the donga, could that be the same wagon in Lloyds other long distance photo. There is in that photo on the right hand edge a sloping straight item that looks to me like the flat bed wagon sans front wheels. Above that sloping wagon, as the slope to the mountain starts there are a series of black dots in both pictures.
The point Im trying to make is that if those three photos can be tied together in time and space then there were Dragoon Guards present at the time of taking. Possibly then John that would restrict us to two possible dates of Lloyd being there.

Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 3:31 pm

You may have something.
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Steve
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barry

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Medical disinfectant   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 6:27 pm

Hi Rusteze,John, Frank,

I think too that the large wooden box broken open on that wagon may have been the one containing demi-johns of carbolic disinfectant, which being in brown bottles the Zulus thought was Twala. Needless to say they guzzled the lot, quenching an enormous thirst , and one wonders how they fared on their way home, after the party.
Judging by the condition of the veldt shown in those pics I would think it was a June, early morning scenario.

regards

barry
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Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 6:05 am

Standing in for the soldier, pretty much the same position
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Barry
Looking at the short shadows I would probably agree, weak early to mid morning sun.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 8:47 am

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Ambulance drawing by Lt Penrose RE.
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Frank Allewell

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James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... Empty
PostSubject: Re: James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill...   James Lloyd's photograph - Isandlana [sic] Hill... EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 9:02 am

Barry
I would agree that the open box is around the right size for storing two 'carboys'.
Steve
Harford doesn't specifically say that the broken bottles were from an ambulance, rather 'the Royal Army Medical Corps wagon.'
The possibility then does exist that the wagons on the picture could be ambulance and stores wagon.
Harford when describing the position assigned, on the night of the 22nd for the 2/3 NNC was looking across the valley and complains of the smell from the broken bottles of medical supplies.
Its in this area that he mentions twice locating Shepherds body. And describes in detail the body position and injuries, "within a few yards of the Ambulance wagon and close to where I was posted on the neck of the hill."
Cheers
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