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 Sergeant W. Shaw

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rusteze
SRB1965
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gcooper
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gcooper




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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptySun Aug 13, 2017 9:55 pm

Hello, I'm currently researching the lives of local soldiers who fought in the Zulu War and came across this notice in the local paper for 1879.

'TUNSTALL'

'Death on the Battle Field. - Of the many soldiers who died bravely at Isandula, this town regrets the death of Sergeant W. Shaw. joined the 2nd battalion of the 24th Regiment more than eight years ago, along with many other Pottery youths, and by his good character and general conduct became sergeant, long before leaving for the Cape of Good Hope. passed through the campaign with the Galekas twelve months ago, but being in that ill-fated central column he met his death at Isandula, fighting against great odds. He leaves a wife and four children, who are the present time in King William's Town, South Africa. It is intended to raise a monument to the Tunstall men who have fallen in South Africa, and so commemorate the deeds of the “fallen brave."'  

Staffordshire Sentinel and Commercial & General Advertiser - Saturday 08 March 1879, p.5

I've read that the remains of a Sergeant William Shaw were discovered on the Isandlwana battlefield a few months later. Unfortunately I've not come across anything further on the man in the local press for that time. 'Tunstall' is the northernmost town of Stoke-on-Trent. Does anyone have any additional information on Sergeant Shaw at all?
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Petty Officer Tom

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 3:18 pm

gcooper,

Welcome to the forum, and I wish you success in your research.

I checked the medal roll for the 2nd Battalion of the 24th and found “W. Shaw” Regimental Number “2336”, Rank “Sergeant” on the list.  According to the medal roll he was not in possession of a medal for previous wars.  He was engaged against the Galekas, Gaikas, and other Kaffir tribes in 1877 – 78, and against the Zulus in 1879 which would entitle him the South Africa Medal with the "1877-8-9" clasp.  There is a notation on the medal roll that there was “no trace of issue” of his medal.

Tom
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Petty Officer Tom

Petty Officer Tom


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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 4:36 pm

gcooper,

Here is another bit of information on Sergeant Shaw from “How Can Men Die Better” by Colonel Mike Snook:

“From the outset the men of the 2nd Battalion stood little or no chance, but they were proud and disciplined professionals and did not go down without a stiff fight.  There was no time for the men on Pope’s right flank to coalesce into larger bodies that would at least permit the sort of protracted resistance seen elsewhere on the field.  The best that could be managed was to come together in threes and fours and sixes.  One such band was a four-man group from C Company, 2nd/24th.  Three privates rallied around Sergeant William Shaw, one was Private Benjamin Latham, a 21-year-old Newport lad; the second was Private Thomas Jones 976 from Brecon; and the third was Private James White, whose home town is unknown.”

Tom
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SRB1965

SRB1965


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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 5:44 pm

Hi,

I assume the above passage from HCMDB, reflects the identification and position of the bodies, rather than 'artistic licence' and assumption that the 4 'C' company men would of stuck together?

Being as 'G' Company was the main body of the 2/24th, it would appear that Shaw and colleagues, were left behind on some detail, along with the rest of the rear echelons of the 2/24th, who joined Pope.

Any ideas on which of the battlefield visits the bodies were found on and is there a primary account of them being found and identified?

Cheers

Simon



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rusteze

rusteze


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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 6:03 pm

Unusually for Snook, he references Bassage's Diary (held at Brecon) as the source for Shaw's stand. Frank A. saw the diary last year and there is an interesting thread on the forum (search "Bassage"). Unfortunately Frank's photos have been struck down with Photobucket blight so they are no more. Perhaps we can prevail on him to post them again once he has recovered from his battlefield trip?

Steve
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Petty Officer Tom

Petty Officer Tom


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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 6:05 pm

Simon,

I originally thought that the “C” was a typographical error, but then remembered that there were men from other companies who were left behind. I don’t know the original source of the information.

If you happen to have a copy of “The Noble 24th” by Norman Holme, there might be some information on Sergeant Shaw, such as when he attested and in which company he served. Unfortunately, I don’t have a copy.

Tom
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rusteze

rusteze


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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 6:14 pm

Tom
Our replies crossed.
Steve
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Frank Allewell

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 6:55 pm

Steve I don't have the facilities to post photos at this stage but I would confirm that the names mentioned where found at the front of the camp. I could come close to identifying the cairn group they were intered in.
I spent three days at RD working on the issue we have been discussing, its interesting.
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SRB1965

SRB1965


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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 7:10 pm

Petty Officer Tom wrote:
If you happen to have a copy of “The Noble 24th” by Norman Holme, there might be some information on Sergeant Shaw, such as when he attested and in which company he served.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a copy. Tom

Hi,

I have a copy of the Noble 24th but unfortunately it is in the loft (but fortunately it is safe from the kids), now that this forum has re-ignited my interest in the AZW, I will have to swap my books around and bring them back down.

Sometimes, I wonder about the writing of Col MS.....not particularly the knowledge aspect but writing style....but that's another story.....

Cheers

Sime (Armchair Literary Critic)

ps I have lots of armchairs.......
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1879graves

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 7:33 pm

He was killed in action at the Battle of Isandhlwana on 22nd January 1879. His service number in some muster rolls is given as ‘2236’. He was posted to India on 28th December 1870. Promoted Corporal on 22nd January 1873 and to Sergeant on 8th April 1877. Served in ‘H’ Company. Medal and Clasp ‘1877-8-9’. His service number was 2-24/2336.
The Noble 24th by Norman Holme & The Silver Wreath by Norman Holme
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1879graves

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 7:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Staffordshire Sentinel and Commercial & General Advertiser 08 March 1879
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gcooper




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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 7:46 pm

Hello everyone and thank you for the welcome and replies. I had happened upon this site and the thread concerning John Bassage's account of the discovery of Sergeant Shaw's remains when I did a general Google search for him.

Petty Officer Tom, thanks for the details re the Medal Roll, that probably explains why my searches for William Shaw on Ancestry and Find My Past came up blank as regards Shaw's campaign medal, while my search for William Hickin of the 1/24th got a hit for his medal, which was issued to his father.

I have about three possible candidates for a William Shaw from Tunstall who could have been the man who died in the battle; it's a process of elimination now to see if I can pinpoint my man, so any additional info would be very useful.

1879 Graves, yes, that's the passage in question, you replied before I finished typing. Thanks for the added information.
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rusteze

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 7:56 pm

Frank
I await your thoughts with anticipation.
It turns out I kept one of your Bassage diary photos.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Steve
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Petty Officer Tom

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 10:06 pm

gcooper,

Judge Advocate General's Office: District Courts Martial Registers (1875-1876) have a Sergeant William Shaw, 24th tried by court-martial 20 October, 1875 at Dover.  He was charged with “Theft” and sentenced to 84 days imprisonment with hard labour, and to be “Reduced.”  A notation shows that the sentence was “Not Confirmed.”

Tom
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Kenny




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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyMon Aug 14, 2017 11:52 pm

Sgt William Shaw's number was 2-24/2236. That shown on the medal roll is incorrect.

Number 2-24/2336 was allocated to CSgt George Lockyer. William Shaw, from his number, enlisted in the spring of 1870 and was posted to 2/24th in Secunderbad 28.12.1870.
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gcooper




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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyFri Aug 18, 2017 2:02 pm

Tom and Kenny, thanks for those bits of info, I'll add them to the other pieces and see if I can find out anything more of use.

Gary
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyFri Aug 18, 2017 5:53 pm

Gary,

You can probably find out more about Shaw's family in the supplementary pages at the end of each quarter of the pay & muster rolls -2/24th - WO12/4157 (1876-77), WO16/1579 (1877-79)- bot ledgers held in the National Archives at Kew - not on-line. Should be on 1861 census - but not 1871.
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gcooper




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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyFri Aug 18, 2017 7:13 pm

Thank you Kenny. Yes, If he's in Tunstall he should be in the 1861 census, trouble is there were a few Shaw families and plenty of Williams, so it's a bit of a detective story. As to the National Archives, I rarely go to London, though I have been to the National Archives before now. Perhaps a long overdue return visit is called for.
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gcooper




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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyThu Dec 17, 2020 8:20 pm

A bit of an update on my research into Sergeant Shaw, or rather someone else's research. I received an email a few days ago from a fellow who had been compiling his family tree and discovered that he was a descendant of William Shaw through his son John (born in 1877). Information on birth certificates and John's later marriage certificate identified his father as William Shaw (deceased), Sergeant in the 24th Foot. Coming across my blog post on Sergeant Shaw at Isandlwana he contacted me, sent me copies of all the pertinent docs to check through. The chain of evidence is pretty solid and it certainly seems to be our man.

By this, William Shaw was born in Tunstall (now part of Stoke-on-Trent) Staffordshire in 1846, the son of potter Aaron Shaw and Sarah nee Hicks. He too worked as a potter in his youth and married a local girl Emma Worrall at Christ Church, Tunstall on 18th June 1866. They apparently had four children, three of whom can be identified: Mary Ann (b.1869), William A. (b.1870) and John (b.1877)
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Tim Needham

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Sergeant W. Shaw Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptyFri Dec 18, 2020 10:38 pm

Gary,

Thanks for the update - I was wondering whether there's a chance William may be commemorated in the local area on a family headstone, possibly his parents' (if of course they have one) or his widow Emma's (assuming she didn't remarry).

Might be an avenue worth looking into?

Regards,

Tim
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gcooper




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PostSubject: Re: Sergeant W. Shaw   Sergeant W. Shaw EmptySat Dec 19, 2020 10:49 am

Tim,
Yes, that has been my thinking. There was mention of a proposed memorial in the newspaper article I mention above, though I've yet to come across anything more in the local press and there are no further hints on the net.

When this coronavirus business has calmed down, I may well take a trip to Christ Church in Tunstall to see if there is anything there. Plus a visit to the city archives might yield results.

Best wishes,

Gary
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