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 Missing page paylist 1/24th

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Bill8183




Posts : 94
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptySat Aug 11, 2018 4:10 pm

Afternoon all,

In early July I took photographs of the paylist of the 1/24th paylist WO 16/1574 1st April to 30th September 1879 I have taken quite a few photo's of paylists so it's taken a while to get to check this one.

Sadly there appears to be a missing page listing the Sergeants. It jumps from page 6 (pencilled number top left of page),  starting with 1790 Bond William to page 8 Sgt Beard (attached Sgts). I have checked the remarks column opposite and it doesn't seem to match up so it's not a mis-numbering as happens later in the book.

Does anyone have a transcription or have taken a photo with the page intact? I'm not sure if it is deliberate or just fallen out, a couple of the pages are quite tattered.

Regards,

Bill
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Aug 13, 2018 3:45 pm

It WAS there when I went through them all back in the 80s. I didn't copy them all sadly, merely checked there were no additions or removals of individuals from quarter to quarter. Forgive the obvious, have you checked it hasn't fallen out and been inserted either elsewhere in the paylist or in one of the NEXT two paylists?
Failing that, ask at the desk to see if it's been put somewhere safe and is awaiting being re-sewn into the book.
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Bill8183




Posts : 94
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Aug 13, 2018 7:55 pm

Julian,

Thanks, yes I've checked all my photos of the paylists before and after, nothing there. The paylist from April 1880 onward has printed numbers anyway. Looking closely I can see the remnants of the page in the centre fold. I'm visiting Kew again on Saturday so will ask at the desk, if I have time I'll try and re-order it to check again especially as I seem to have missed page 39 Privates "M"... rather careless.

Essentially I was checking on the return dates of the Mounted Infantry, I have your articles on the 1st Squadron in Soldiers Of The Queen 58/59 and Studies in The Zulu War Vol 2. I was hoping to see if I could identify the 17 men under Lt Clements who joined Pearson's column, and the 20 reinforcements who joined the 1st Squadron, as mentioned in the Historical Records of the 24th pg 221/222

Bill
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyMon Aug 13, 2018 10:42 pm

I may be able to help you there. I'm hoping I still have the information. It would be unlike me to throw info away though it may be 'buried'. Give me a few days to see if I can find it.
My Mounted Infantry article in SOTQ had some typos in it in the printing AND I have since updated it and added the 2nd squadron's info - all of which I hope to include as a 'new' revamped essay for Studies in the Zulu War VI or VII.
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Kenny




Posts : 455
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 1:47 pm

Bill,

Sorry for the delay in responding.  I took images of WO16/1574 at Kew on 7 Oct 2007.  Yes, page 7 (Sergeants) appears to be missing - however in the central margins of page 6 there appear to some remnants of the missing page 7 and as you noted the remarks do not line up.  So the apparent removal of page 7 is not a recent event.  It may be possible to get close to re-compiling the missing entries by making a comparison with the later 1/24th pay lists (1 Oct 79 - 31 Mar 1880).  I have not undertaken this recovery exercise myself.  A start date of 1 Oct may give a clue that an individual sergeant was on the role between Apr-Sep 79.
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Good!
I've not yet found Lieut. Clements's 17 men yet but I'm sure David Jackson showed me such a list and sent it to me in the 90s. I'm sure I still have it and will continue to search. I recall he didn't come by it via TNA.
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Bill8183




Posts : 94
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 5:52 pm

Kenny,

Thanks for the info, as Julian suggested I will ask at the desk on Saturday, but I suspect the page is long gone. I will see what finds comparing the paylists will come up with, I will also have to check the Jan-Mar 1879 and the reinforcements Draft paylist too.

Julian,

Again thanks for your help, much appreciated. I wonder if that information was from Brecon? Look forward to reading future articles, talking of which how is Volume V and 9th edition ES coming along?

Regards,

Bill
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Kenny




Posts : 455
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 7:24 pm

Bill,

Sorry I also missed your later post. I was so keen to find whether I had a copy of the missing page 7 - the complete pay list was hidden away on an old external drive which I no longer use. However I now find I could send you an image of page 39 if you wish - one less job to do. I found some queries on the 'Clyde' draft (included with WO16/1574) which I can also send you. The date I copied this file was 3 Oct 2007 not 7 Oct 2007 as I previously stated. Send me a private email if you wish a copy of page 39.

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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 8:33 pm

Martin
It never ceases to amaze me how between everyone on this site, 9 times out of 10, we can help one another with bits of info here and there. I would certainly like a copy of the missing paylist page as well please!
Bill
Vol V is coming along, nearing the conclusion in fact - to tell the truth I have found so much of interest and so much new material in the 3 essays that I have been very concerned to do my absolute best by it - so I have taken my time. Frederic will also be contributing and likewise he has been meticulous and painstaking in his research. I think it will be worth the wait. I shall post info on it on the forum when it is ready.
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Kenny




Posts : 455
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyWed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 pm

Julian,

I may have confused you - I have noted that the missing page 7 was missing when I copied the 1/24th pay list in 2007 - over 10 years ago! So it is not a recent loss.  I was offering Bill a copy of page 39 which he said he overlooked when he was copying the same pay list recently..
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 16, 2018 7:52 am

Martin
Sorry! My mistake!
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Bill8183




Posts : 94
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Aug 17, 2018 8:56 pm

So far it's been an interesting little exercise in determining the Mounted Infantry roll, if we take the numbers as written in the Historical Records as accurate (20 reinforcements & 17 with Lt. Clements) and add to the original detachment of 45 (Other ranks only) I am looking for 82 soldiers.

The paylist April to Sept 1879 lists 60 men returning plus one unknown from the missing Sgts page (which I assess as probably being L/Sgt or Sgt Robert Jamieson, (original group) listed as a Sgt in the next paylist).

30 were the original group, 8 returned on the 8th May 79 the remainder 21st August 79.
10 were reinforcement sent 1st and 6th June 79 returning with the main body 21st August 79.
20 more are listed, 2 returning 1st April, 1 on 6th June, the remaining 17 returning 1st July 79

Of the 14 original troop not listed, 5 were dead ( Atkinson, Byrne, Edwards, Turner & Bastard)
1 had returned to 1st Battalion (Probert) date unknown.
3 at the General Depot (White returned to 1/24th on 16th August 79, Galloway to UK 2nd Feb 1879, Scudder returned 13th August 79)
2 at Hospital (Griggs and 343 Walsh) have not found them in subsequent lists.
1 (Banyard) listed as still on 80th Regt strength in March 79 (not seen later lists) listed on 1/24th Oct 79 to Mar 80 paylist as returning from Pinetown S.A. on 1st December 1879
2 (Norman and McCarthy) not found them subsequently yet.

So a total of 75 men from 82 although who were with Number 1 column I have yet to determine. Plus 4 above still not pinpointed their exact movements.

Thanks to Martin & Julian for their help so far.

WO 16/1573 Pay list 1/24th Regt 1877-1879 various lists inc draft, St Helena Detachment and post Isandlwana
WO 16/1574 Pay list 1/24th Regt 1879-1880
WO 16/1982 Pay list 80th Regt 1878-79
WO 16/2488 Pay list General Depot Pietermaritzburg 1878-1880

Soldiers of the Queen issue 58/59 January 1990 No 1. Sqn Mounted Infantry Julian Whybra
Studies in the Zulu War Vol 2 Julian Whybra
Historical Records of the 24th Regt 1689-1892 Paton, Glennie & Penn Symons
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John Young

John Young


Posts : 2337
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Aug 17, 2018 10:30 pm

Bill,

Have you looked at 2nd/4th’s Pay & Muster Roll? Post-iSandlwana 2nd/4th supplied men to augment the losses.

This is evidenced by the two casualties from the 2nd/4th whilst serving in the 1st Squadron, Mounted Infantry, sustained at Khambula.

Just a thought as to somewhere else to look.

JY
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Bill8183




Posts : 94
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 53
Location : Sunderland

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyFri Aug 17, 2018 11:03 pm

John,

Thanks, actually no I haven't. Although I think I have a decent knowledge of the Zulu War, I do sometimes tend to concentrate on the 24th. My biggest weakness is in knowing the location of the various units stationed in South Africa at the time, which is useful if certain sub units are known to be attached like the Mounted Infantry Squadrons.

Many thanks on that pointer, I have added it to my list!

Bill
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 23, 2018 7:36 am

Bill
Jamieson was promoted sergt. on 22.1.79!
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 23, 2018 5:54 pm

Norman died 27.3.1879 in Ladysmith.
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2588
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Missing page paylist 1/24th   24th - Missing page paylist 1/24th EmptyThu Aug 23, 2018 5:57 pm

John Welsh was discharged 3.3.79.
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