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rusteze

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PostSubject: New Photos   Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:48 pm

Here is a series of new photos from Frank's visit last weekend.

8315 An example of erosion control
8327 A rebuilt cairn damaged by erosion
8329 General view cross the battlefield
8337 General view over the battlefield
8274 From the Knuckle area looking back to the camp
8276 The view from the center of the firing line
8280 Amatutshane or conical Koppie where generations of writers have said Lt
Scott sat on top controlling his piquet's. Good luck with getting a horse up
there, or possibly he climbed up and had his men bellow up to him !
8285 iThusi to the left and the Qwabe valley straight head ( where Durnford
rode forth)
8291 A view from the Donga
8314 Erosion at the eastern end of the battlefield. Two cairns are scheduled
for moving to more stable ground next year
8284 Nature's sunshade, African style.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:31 pm

Thanks Steve and Frank.
You seem to think that Lt Scott was not on the top of conical hill before the beginning of the battle the 22th January....
So were he was?
Amitié
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:56 pm

I see what Frank means, but logically a piquet would be ineffective unless it was on top of the conical hill. Anstey's map shows piquets on conical hill, itusi and the western end of the notch up on the ridge. We know that Scott later moved up onto the ridge as well to improve his vision to the north east. But his starting point must have been on top of conical hill (perhaps on foot).

Steve


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PostSubject: New Photo's    Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:31 am

I've climbed the Conical Hill , didn't find it to difficult at all , I don't think it would be a drama to lead a horse up there or down . Horses got down the Devil's Pass , it's FAR worse than Conical Hill . Plus the erosion of today may make these places look worse now, than back in 1879 .
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PostSubject: Picquets   Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 am

Hi All,


I have an NMP contour map confirming a picquet on top of Conical Hill.


regards


barry


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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:06 am

I would say the first comment should be what was the point of him being 'on top'. He didn't have any view of the plateau, his view to the East wasnt significantly better!
The foothill from the Northern slope has just as good a view, its accessible, the piquets wouldn't have to bellow information or risk their horses climbing it. Sorry Gary as a horseman myself it would take a life and death situation for me to try and get a horse up and down that boulder strewn slope, a situation as at Devils pass. There wasn't that urgency for a sentinel.
The same applies to the iThusi position. Adjacent to IThusi is the ridge/hillbrow extending North that gives every bit as good views acroass the plateau and down into the Qwabe valley and its very easy access. It terms of the maps, sure it was easy to give a general area for the posting of the piquets.
Then consider the time it would have taken him to get up and down? No point at all.
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:21 am

Hi,

Just out of interest could Lt Scott have see his piquets (marked on the NMP map) - if he was on the Conical Hill?

As CO of the outposts, does he necessarily need to have the best view or is that down to his eyes/ears. Wouldn't his role been to watch the piquets?

Ta

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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:21 am

Simon there is around 300 to 350 feet difference in height between iThusi and Amatutshane. We really have no definative positions for the piquets/vedets. IF Barker was sitting on top of iThusi he would have been visible. IF the piquet on the ridge was on top of that rockpile then yes they would have been visible on the skyline. IF however they were in more logical positions on the foothills then no. ( That makes a very strong case for Scott moving his position)
Cases can be made for both scenarios. To my mind its a no brainer the Carbineers were extremely 'Veld savvie' They wanted a fast route out in case of trouble not spending time gingerly leading horses through rock piles. Those horses were their lifeline, why risk injury when they didn't have to.
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:13 am

Inspector Mansel, NMP, drew a map.
About the videttes, he wrote: "Nqutu Range; The figures are put in the places I placed my videttes on the day we pitched camp. I also had videttes on the right front about 2 miles away".
Mansel drew Konical Koppie on the map but he didn't add comment about it.

Barry, please, do you know who was the author of your "NMP map" and when this map was drawn?

Regards
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:38 am

I forgot to mention that Mansel drew 4 videttes positions all along the top of the Nqutu Range (see a copy of the the map for example in "Zulu Victory" / Lock and Quantrill).
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:07 am

Barker made it clear in his account that Scott was on iThusi. Scott may have started out on top of or on the slopes of Amatutshane but he must have moved when he realized its limitations.
This is made clear with other supporting evidence in the third essay of the imminent Studies in the Zulu War volume V.
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:22 am

Hi, I suppose that when Scott deployed the videttes, he would have told them his intended command post was on or near the Conical Hill. Would he then of informed them of his move of CP or let them find out the hard way he was not there, if they needed guidance and inspiration at some point. Where did the troopers rally, when driven in by the Zulu advance? Thanks Sime
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:53 am

Scott was definitly in the area of Amatutshane, (witnessed), if and when he moved up to the plateau (provable) he would have been in visual touch with all of his piquets, and Durnford.
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:46 am

Funny, when I posted these photos I expected more of a reaction about the effects of the erosion and what Amafa are doing about it.
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:53 am

My point about Scott being on top of conical hill is a simple one. Were he not on top, close proximity to the hill would considerably block his view in one direction or another, depending where he stood. But of course I say that not having been there!

Incidently, the presence of a piquet (vedette) at the western end of the notch tends to re-inforce the idea that an easier path existed at that end for the RB (but that's another subject!).

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:58 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
Funny, when I posted these photos I expected more of a reaction about the effects of the erosion and what Amafa are doing about it.

Frank,
What Amafa is doing about erosion?
Amitié
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:05 pm

Hi Fredric
There are a couple of examples of the erosion taking place and destroying cairns. Amafa has an extended program in place to counter that soil erosion. have a look at the re bult cairn and also the rock retaining walls being built.
Steve
The area of concer were virtually anything outside the camp so a view across to the camp was not essential. The critical identified areas from early morning were the north/north east. Rising up from the saddle at the bottom of the ridge is an area that gives an elevated view across the face of the ridge all the way to the east, where Chelmsford journeyed, and into the Qwabe, where Durnford rode. So that raised area, essentially part of Amatutshane, was a perfect easily accessible view point. The trouble of course was no view of the plateau and as the more and more frequent reports were of activity up there it made a hell of a lot of sense for Scott to be there, and he was.
There are a couple of articles coming out that will illustrate those points.

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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:09 pm

Thanks Frank. While it is laudable that Amafa has a programme to counter soil erosion, does not moving cairns (and therefore burials) to more stable ground somewhat undermine the current furore about preserving the "graves" at the building site?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Hi Steve. No I don't think so. In the photo of the rebuilt cairn you will see the base has been substantially strengthened. This essentially is what is being done, preserving the grave site and also the grave itself. There is a photo that shows the two developing dongas ( Ive been watching them grow for years.) the two cairns on the 'isthmus' of ground in between are in danger of toppling into the Northern donga. Im given to understand that if the barriers built higher up are not effective then those two cairns will be moved to the nearest solid ground, around ten metre to the north. Its an extensive process in which all the stones are removed and the ground below is examined and sieved. Any artifacts or bone are then incorporated in the rebuilt cairn.
With the building site the argument by its detractors has been that little effort has been made to appreciate the historical value of the site itself.
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PostSubject: Posting of videttes   Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:02 pm

Hi All,

 I have  already  posted  the NMP map of vidette deployment on the forum some time ago.
It is undated, but I think it a fair assumption that it pertains to the deployments of observation outposts the day before the battle because the active NMP were out with  Maj Dartnell the following day.  It is also a fair assumption that other troops were detailed for that same duty, on the same highpoints, whilst the NMP were out of camp.
I know that NMP troopers Clarke and  Green were posted on the Nqutu ridge, where no action was seen by them. They were recalled that night by a staff officer who had forgotten about them and as a result they returned to camp too late to partake of the evening  meal.


regards

barry
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:10 am

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:03 am

Did"nt one of the troopers told Durnford that Scott had strick orders not to leave the hill and Durnford replied I am Pulleine Senior so that places him on either Conical or maybe Itusi as the battle was first developing which I would place him on conical the area around Itusi was the area the Zulu first appeared which would mean he could not stay there much longer by choice.

So if Scott had orders not to leave his post ordered by Pulleine then this can give the impression he left his post for a short period of time before he was ordered not to leave it
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:08 am

Morning Aussie
I don't think 'leaving the hill' was mentioned. Possibly more like leaving his position? I would take that further in that Scott set the positions not Pulleine, his troopers were I feel merely trying it on with Durnford. Probably because they didn't want to ride back up that hill to Scott, they knew what was happening on the plateau.
I personaly don't believe he was on either of the two hills.

Cheers Mate
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:17 am

Frank Allewell wrote:

I personaly don't believe he was on either of the two hills.

Intriguing.......
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:37 am

Isnt it
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:06 pm

The logical non military mind would think, it did not matter where the CO was - so long as he had visibility of his outposts and the outposts could see him.

The signal of 'enemy spotted' was riding around in a circle (so I believe) - this must mean that the officer must have had eye line to the outpost (or closest outpost in chain of outposts).

Would each of his videttes would have been told to rally on him, if forced back (or at least rally in a specific location)?

OK - so where did the NC rally back to when forced back? They ended up with Durnfords last stand eventually (after holding the donga? - where they to the right of the NNMC?)

Cheers

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:48 am

Sime
From testimonies I would say that Scott was the centre of the information gathering from the piquets. They reported to him and he directed the dissemination, back to camp or...……
There are records of piquets reporting to Scott, possibly that would intimate they weren't in line of sight at all times.
As for your other questions, Volume 5 and 6 should answer them.

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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:39 am

Volume VI ???
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:02 am

Back to the future Fred!
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:40 am

Hi Frank,

I think regardless of the line of sight or not, someone would still have to ride back to Lt Scott to appraise him of the situation.

The fact that they were running around in circles would be a visual alert that something was happening in that area/section/quadrant but Lt Scott would still need to have more info - numbers, direction, possible intent of enemy etc

Maybe with various criteria eg "come back and report if they are advancing in force" (or whatever)

Probably why there were two troopers (?) in each vidette.......one to keep observing and one to relay info (as well as for mutual protection - should one trooper decided to have 40 winks)

The Rocket battery met one Trooper (maybe Barker?) going somewhere by the CC.

I'm still waiting for the postie to bring Vol 5....and now you are teasing about Vol 6.......its like waiting for Game of Thrones......

Cheers

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:02 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
Back to the future Fred!

Very happy by this news!
Amitié
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:15 am

Small point Sime, Hawkins returned with Barker and met the RB.
Have a careful read of Stalker, Barker was very mobile not static, he mentions riding around the plateau and looking  for Zulu: "a few of us went up to this hill where the Zulus had disappeared, and on a farther hill, at about six hundred yards distance we saw a large army sitting down." He also mentions Whitelaw and another. So piquets were not being confined to a particular spot but were acting as scouts roaming the area, and congregating These particular sightings were before Raw upset the applecart. So putting these points into context with other statements starts to produce a time line of events and there are quite a few utterances that significantly contribute to that time line. In doing that exercise Scotts movements also start to click into place...………..have fun.
Never got round to Game of Thrones is that about Charles and William?
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:07 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
Never got round to Game of Thrones is that about Charles and William?

Nope, the House of Windsor are much more devious than the GoT's characters.....

I'll go through my books and look for Stalker excerpts......

ta

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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:11 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
Small point Sime, Hawkins returned with Barker and met the RB.
Have a careful read of Stalker, Barker was very mobile not static, he mentions riding around the plateau and looking  for Zulu: "a few of us went up to this hill where the Zulus had disappeared, and on a farther hill, at about six hundred yards distance we saw a large army sitting down." He also mentions Whitelaw and another. So piquets were not being confined to a particular spot but were acting as scouts roaming the area, and congregating These particular sightings were before Raw upset the applecart. So putting these points into context with other statements starts to produce a time line of events and there are quite a few utterances that significantly contribute to that time line. In doing that exercise Scotts movements also start to click into place...………..have fun.
Never got round to Game of Thrones is that about Charles and William?

So Frank, this hill the Carbineers went over and saw a large Zulu army sitting down would you put it in or around Nyesi what time would you put this at ?   and one obvious point it was not in the Ngbweni valley.  Also do you think it remained at this same spot until Raw"s discovery
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:41 am

Morning Aussie
Its pretty much up in the air but no doubt in my mind it was Whitelaw spotted the army first and then before Raw got there Barker and friends.
The biggest hindrance to re creating the situation is the ground changes that have taken place. Before the Nqutu/Babanango rod was re aligned and upgraded, it was just a dirt track way back when, the ridge of ground extended from iThusi all the way to around half way up Mabaso hill. Even before that track was in use and it was virgin ground the iThusi ridge and Mabaso formed a solid high rim to the Ngwebini upper stream. If therefore you climbed up onto the plateau west of the notch and turned right towards this ridge you could have followed it all the way to Mabaso. This is where the realms of time obscure everything because Barker could be referring to a point that he looked down into that 'bowl' and seen the army decamping around the Western edge of Mabaso along the stream OR he could have ridden up the then fairly smallish climb of Mabaso and looked down into the Ngwebini valley.
L and Q presented a lot of evidence towards their MFHT, they also were selective in that evidence. Dennis Barker in his book relating the family history is convinced Barker was talking about Qwabe. Actually it could have been any of those. But points to consider would be Barker saying that after they had crested a hill "on a farther hill at about 600 yards distance, we saw a large army sitting down." That I cant equate with what I know of the landscape, IF the army was in the Ngwebini valley then there are no other hills within 600 metres higher than Mabaso that would allow Barker to look and see an army sheltering. That to my mind is the biggest single piece of evidence that L and Q ignored.
I believe that Barker and his mates, there were a number of them, rode along the ridge line past the low range, at 90 degrees to the ridge, around half way to the main road and then saw the army spread out at the bottom of Mabaso. Pretty much where the modern road is. Just my thoughts.
In terms of time, They saw that army rode back to Scott (now on the plateau) who sent them of to report to Pulleine. They met up with the RB and the rest is history as they say. So that to my mind is a possible sequence.
BUT and its a hell of a BUT. Raw would have seen that army within probably minutes of Barker. So why doesn't Barker mention seeing raw on the plateau, its a sizable event that he would/should have noted?
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:53 pm

Morning Frank
Uguku of the UmCijo regiment stated his regiment left the Ngbweni valley with the belief the Ngobamakosi regiment was engaged and when they noticed it was not engaged they fell back it was this falling back when reported to camp by Barry"s position prompted Durnford to make his move to send Raw and Roberts up.  Not long after arriving on the high ground they notice a zulu herd boy herding some cattle they take flight after the cattle crossing over a hill they notice one portion of the army sitting down another standing { noticed by Hamer this portion standing I believe just arriving from the Ngbweni valley ordered by Tshingwayo to move up } they would of cought up with the cattle long before arriving at the valley being the spot L and Q stating fitting the eyewitness accounts perfectly.

Then Uguku states the Ngobamakosi and the Uve regiments also being engaged to the left of the Uguku Umcijo and the other standing regiment I think this is what Barker and friends saw crossing over that hill 600 yards away being left of the Umcijo making it close to Nyezi { being the Uve and Ngobamakosi } maybe an hour or so before Raw"s discovery. The Uve regiment then chases Durnfords men  back to the camp from the Qwabe valley and the Ngobamakosi regiment making its way to Itusi dealing with the rocket battery there.

The Umcijo and this other regiment making its way to the Nqutu ridge forming the chest. Just 2 hours before all this Chard notices a large group of Zulu"s to the rear of the Lions cop being the right horn also out of the valley if the Zulu was not discovered by Raw they would of still attacked the trump card being this other regiment arriving with the Umcijo this ordered by Tshingwayo to move up because he would of been informed that another {the first being Durnford }  large group of troops heading its way to the camp being Maori Brown.

Tshingwayo"s would of seen this window of opportunity seing half of the camp strength leaving with Chelmsford first thing in the morning but two large forces arriving back to the camp before Midday.

This is what I can connect with the eye witness reports we have at our disposal  this is why I can not wait to read trooper Granger statements he may be able to give us more insight of those hours before the battle started
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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:39 pm

Hi Aussie
You've stood on that battlefield on the saddle. Looking across at the ridge what do you think the line was of those Zulus heading to the rear of the mountain? To be visible from the camp they had to have been between Barry and the camp. In fact its highly likely they followed what is now the road passing above the lodge, that's the only time that they could have been seen heading west. That puts them very close to the camp and as above seperates Barry from the camp, wonder why no reaction from Pulleine? Possibly the number wasn't sufficient to worry about? If that was the case would they have been the right horn?
The timeline is absolute or should be and that means weaving together Barker Scott Durnford Raw plus a number of others and that includes one key player who is the time fulcrum. Its a fixed point that the rest spin around. because of that its difficult to try and put together an attack situation from the opposite end.
There is so little that we know of the build up to the battle but the points we do have fit together, they have to because they happened.
We don't know where the army was we can only speculate but speculating based on time motion and space then applied to geography is I believe the only way to try and make any sense of it all.
Still bloody fascinating after all these years.
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:21 pm

Fascinating all right I understand your staying at Rorkes Drift Lodge for the anniversary I will be to, I am going with Ian Knights tour. so we can meet. Gary is going to, I am just starting panoramic photography and have a few ideas which I will be trying out when I am there
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empire66



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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:40 pm

can i just say many thanks for posting the photos. it is great to see up to date pics of one of the most interesting and exciting places i have visited. i went in 2001 and had the pleasure of staying at the isandlwana lodge and having a memorable tour by the late rob gerrard. never forget the late night drinks we shared in the lodge bar on new years eve. thankyou for bringing back some great memories with your photos and i will definitely return. once the zulu bug bites you it has you for life.like many watching zulu when i was a lad was the hook. all the best
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:06 am

Morning Aussie
We are all at the RD Hotel, the Lodge is quite a distance away. Looking forward to meeting up with everyone. JY will also be in the area.
empire66
my pleasure.
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:48 am

Good Morning Frank
I always wanted to do an experiment concerning Raw eyewitness testimony he said he discovered the Zulu army 4 to 5 miles out from the camp, have you measured the distance from the route he took 5 miles and if you did did it end up in the Ngbweni Valley I am eager to find out I am planning to do it on this trip to get the exact distance

Thanks Aussie
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:40 am

Morning Aussie
I have walked it with a pedometer. Its pretty indeterminate. IF Raw moved to the east when he got onto the plateau and then North towards point X he would travel just short of 4 miles. If he rode to the lip of the Ngwebini valley up Mabaso he would have traveled 6 miles.

Cheers
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: New Photos   Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:53 am

Yes I tried it with Google maps but that did not cover Raws route it was a single straight line from the camp to the donga and that was almost 5 miles. So you would say Raw was a good judge of distance ?
to think the Zulu could of got that close to camp without being noticed just shows you how poor British scouting was.
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