WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command. Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Norman Lister Black. NNC
Today at 8:33 am by Frank Allewell

» Isandlwana:Zulu Battlefield DVD
Today at 8:01 am by SRB1965

» James Bickley, Isandlwana survivor
Today at 3:26 am by Frank Allewell

»  Isandlwana cultural centre
Yesterday at 3:08 pm by xhosa2000

» The death of His Royal Highness Prince Shange (1936-2017)
Yesterday at 3:00 pm by xhosa2000

» Zulu 'flag' at Khambula
Yesterday at 7:56 am by littlehand

» Coghill and Melvill issue
Yesterday at 5:47 am by SRB1965

» Adding to the Library
Wed May 24, 2017 4:52 pm by xhosa2000

» Lt. A. Mynor's Gravesite at Ft Pearson Cemetery
Wed May 24, 2017 2:53 pm by 90th

» Lieut-Gen Sir Edward Hopton , K.C.B., J.P., D.L
Wed May 24, 2017 10:09 am by John Young

» EDWARD HOARE REEVES
Wed May 24, 2017 12:01 am by littlehand

» Capt. A. Gardner 14th Hussars (Staff Officer No.3 Column)
Tue May 23, 2017 1:16 pm by littlehand

» Thinking of my Home Town
Tue May 23, 2017 10:24 am by rusteze

» Lt. A. Mynors 3rd Btn 60th Rifles.
Tue May 23, 2017 9:31 am by ADMIN

» RYLEY John Rutherford
Tue May 23, 2017 5:09 am by 90th

Captain Lord E.F. Gifford, VC
Pursuit of Cetshwayo [Mac & Shad] (Isandula Collection)
The Origin and Rise of the Zulu Nation
Our Favourite Web Links
Legacy of the Rorke’s Drift Heroes Kings Own. The Wardrobe. The National Army Museum. The Anglo Zulu War Museum. The Zulu War 1879. Soldiers Of The Queen. Zulu War Historical Society. John Dunn Foundation The Martini-Henry Rifle. Ian Knight's Website. Zulu War Author & Historian. All About the Martini Henry. Neil Aspinshaws new website. The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh (Brecon) Swords From The USA.
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
impi
 
1879graves
 
tasker224
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Durnford was he capable.5

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3 ... 10 ... 20  Next
AuthorMessage
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Yes, I see what you mean. But don't forget that LC had not left any orders for Pulleine, it was Clery that took it upon himself to do that (which really he should not have done, because he was junior to Pulleine). The order you speak of (reinforce the camp), was to have been sent to Durnford, and Clery at first was going to do this, but Crealock intervened and said that he should not be sending orders to an independent Column commander, this is when LC changed his mind and said that Crealock should do it, so really, Clery had no business informing Pulleine about this, nor should he have taken it upon himself to issue orders to a senior officer. Makes you wonder why Crealock did not include 'reinforce the camp' in the order to Durnford, unless of course LC had changed his mind about it.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2090
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:26 pm

Why is it saying topic locked?

Ah, I see it's not but I lost another post!!!

Steve


Last edited by rusteze on Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2554
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:26 pm

Clery was the Senior Staff Officer to the 3rd Column, commanded by Colonel Glyn

"Before leaving the camp, I sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; draw in (I speak- from memory) your camp, or your line of defence"—I am not certain which-"while the force is out: also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly; but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced." I told him to have a wagon ready loaded with ammunition ready to follow the force going out at a moment's notice, if required. I went to Colonel Pulleine's tent just before leaving camp to ascertain that he had got these instructions, and I again repeated them verbally to him. To the best of my memory, I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp. I saw the column out of camp and accompanied it."
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2554
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:27 pm

rusteze wrote:
Why is it saying topic locked?

Where does it say that?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2090
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:30 pm

That's what I got, and lost another post!!!

Heyho I will try again.

Thanks CTSG for your earlier clarification of who you were addressing. That's fine.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:36 pm

Yes Steve, there was some sort of glitch. I clicked to 'refresh' and got the thread DWHC1, so I don't know how that happened, but when I clicked 'refresh' again it went back to DWHC2, odd that eh? scratch
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

avatar

Posts : 3515
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 58
Location : KENT

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:47 pm

I will try and keep an eye on the progress. But it looks like we will be starting a "Durnford was he capable 3" might be worth writing your posts to word, before posting, in the event you can't post them on the forum due to the page limit being reach. Another 27 posts will end the Durnford was he capable 2 discussion. Hope this makes sense.


Last edited by Admin on Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://www.1879zuluwar.com
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2554
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:02 pm

May as well title this discussion the "Never Ending Story"
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:06 pm

Having read all the posts carefully over the last three day's..
i feel it is now time to say..Chelmsford Was He Capable?.
xhosa
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:23 pm

Oh dear!

CWHC?

Now that will be another 'Never Ending Story'. Shocked
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:38 pm

Very Happy .. i know, but it does tie in rather nicely with
the latter parts of the discussion..we all know and
it is recorded how the strain of command was
telling on his lordship, i'm more surprised that the
AZW fraternity has seen fit to neglect this aspect
of the campaign..did Chelmsford suffer from either
anxiety or depression?.and did any of his decisions
impact on his command!.

From his letters and his actions post Isandhlwana, i
think there is enough there to ask the question..
xhosa
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1263
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:31 pm

Xhosa wrote:
From his letters and his actions post Isandhlwana, i think there is enough there to ask the question..

Can you post a link, or something that shows these letters. Much appricated.
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1263
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:04 pm

"From "Blacks, Boers, & British: A Three-cornered Problem" by Francis Reginald Statham (1881), Chapter X., "Isandhlwana" -

"But who anticipated danger? Was it not said of the Zulus, as was the other day said of the Transvaal Boers, that their defence--for the idea of a march to Ulundi became popular during the few weeks preceding the actual commencement of hostilities--was it not said that the defence of the Zulus would collapse and break down? Did not Sir Theophilus Shepstone himself, when visiting Lord Chelmsford's camp six days before the great disaster, say so? And did any one know more about the Zulus than Sir Theophilus Shepstone? And so, when they marched out of the city, the little troop of some five and forty, with the military band at their head, and the crowd marching with them for a mile of the route, there was anxiety, but no apprehension. They were the Natal Carbineers, the heroes of the affair at Bushman's Pass in 1873. They were going to redeem their reputation, and to fight, if fighting indeed should be necessary, under the eyes of Lord Chelmsford himself. On one thing they congratulated themselves--they were not going to fight under Colonel Durnford, whose stubborn adherence to his orders not to fire the first shot brought them loss six years before in the passes of the Drakensberg...

Does any one in Natal remember--or rather does any one forget--that Friday morning, the 24th January, 1879, when the news came down to the capital of Natal of the dire disaster under the shadow of the hill at Isandhlwana? There never was a calmer, brighter summer dawn than there was in Natal that day. The whole thing is at this moment as distinct as if it were only yesterday. The dim feeling of undefined awe, when it was whispered that news had been brought of the disaster. Then the questions hurriedly asked of the highest colonial official obtainable ; the answer, "The news is just as bad as it can be ;" the question as to who was known to be killed ; the reply again, "Durnford's killed for certain, and Scott, and at least half the Carbineers." Durnford? How did he come to be there? He was supposed to be eighty miles away. But Scott!--the recently-promoted lieutenant of the popular Carbineers ; the best singer of a comic song ; the best amateur on the stage ; the very life of the cricket-field! Scott dead!--it seemed impossible to realise it.

But somehow it got realised as the day went on, and as the conviction settled down on everybody that half of the gallant little band who had marched out a few weeks ago would come back no more. And then, as the day wore, came sentences of indignation. How was it Durnford was there? How was it that the Carbineers came to be again under his command? Had it not been enough that he had led them into danger six years ago?



Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:21 pm

Looks like this 'Francis Reginald Statham' chap fell for all the guff churned out at the time about blaming Col Durnford. Pity that he couldn't see the wood for the trees.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7089
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 48
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:50 pm

Chard you left the last chapter out?

"So ran the tone at the moment, but it changed five months later, when at last--delayed by heaven only knows what reason--a visit was paid by Imperial troops to the field, and the remains of the dead were allowed to tell their own story. Durnford was there indeed, still plainly recognisable, with Scott close beside him, and the boys of the Carbineers lying dead all around. It was they who had made that last rally, in the vain hope of stemming the rush of Zulu warriors, and gaining time for a least a few more fugitives to escape. Could any one have believed that sun and weather would have so long left distinguishable remains which thus told one of the most pathetic stories ever known? Yet it was so. And can it be doubted that the memories of Bushman's pass are wiped out by the memories of the day when, in the last moments of existence, the mistake and misunderstanding of years was put right, and the boy fought side by side with the man in the conflict which both knew could only end in death?"
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2312
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:19 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Very Happy  .. i know, but it does tie in rather nicely with
the latter parts of the discussion..we all know and
it is recorded how the strain of command was
telling on his lordship, i'm more surprised that the
AZW fraternity has seen fit to neglect this aspect
of the campaign..did Chelmsford suffer from either
anxiety or depression?.and did any of his decisions
impact on his command!.

FNrom his letters and his actions post Isandhlwana, i
think there is enough there to ask the question..

                                                           xhosa

Xhosa. What letters and actions do you refer. scratch Post Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:38 am

Impi
Few posts back Julian was asking about a phrase you came up with re Crealock, any thoughts?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:45 am

impi
Ditto!
Julian
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:09 am

springbok9 wrote:
Impi
Few posts back Julian was asking about a phrase you came up with re Crealock, any thoughts?

Cheers
It seems that Springbok has the same idea behind the head that Julian Very Happy
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:34 am

impi wrote:
Julian my fault.

"The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I."

But does it still not show that Clery was present at this point.

Is this it Springy and Julian?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:46 am

Impi yes it does. Julians point however is that after that conversation and Clery had left the tent then a continuum between Chelmsford and Crealock produced a different result.


Cheers
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:52 am

springbok9 wrote:
Impi yes it does. Julians point however is that after that conversation and Clery had left the tent then a continuum between Chelmsford and Crealock produced a different result.


Cheers

Maybe that is why the order did not say reinforce or strengthen, maybe Crealock persuaded LC to change his mind yet again.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:53 am

impi/springy/martin
Telling someone immediately afterwards that they are not to write an order but that the man in the next tent will do it himself (because he's of the requisite rank) does not mean that the first man was present while the second man at some later moment actually wrote the order.
martin
All we can say is that in the order that Crealock wrote there was no mention of reinforcing the camp. Come to what conclusion you will...
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:04 pm

Hi Julian, yes, I have been saying that the order of the 22nd did not have those words all along, however, others have interpreted it differently.

And if the pincer move between Durnford and Bengough had been cancelled, then why didn't Crealock say this in the order I wonder? As the way it is worded, it would give the impression to Durnford that it is still going ahead, ie; Bengough's move, and LC being about 10 miles distant, and I would think that Durnford took it to mean just that.
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2312
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:36 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Impi
Few posts back Julian was asking about a phrase you came up with re Crealock, any thoughts?

Cheers

Springbok look at my post Yesterday at 6:12 pm
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:40 pm

impi, I have posted it for you, Springy and Julian have read it, they have replied (see above).
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2312
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:41 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Impi yes it does. Julians point however is that after that conversation and Clery had left the tent then a continuum between Chelmsford and Crealock produced a different result.


Cheers

What source do we have that shows the conversation continued after Clery left the tent. . Or we talking reading between the lines or in hinesight.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:42 pm

Thanks impi
Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:43 pm

impi
That's the question the eminent Mr Whybra is going to have to answer. Most probably in his essay.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:00 pm

Well, something must have been said between LC and Crealock, maybe that's why the order never contained the words reinforce or strengthen, and maybe that is why nothing was said to Durnford about cancelling the pre planned pincer move, who knows?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:09 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Well, something must have been said between LC and Crealock, maybe that's why the order never contained the words reinforce or strengthen, and maybe that is why nothing was said to Durnford about cancelling the pre planned pincer move, who knows?
In your scenario martin then why did Durnford ignore the 'preplanned pincer movement' ? I personally have never ever seen an order or communicate that mentions a 'pincer movement'. Only that Durnfords column would be required to assist, nothing more than that.
For Bengough to cross at Elands would have been a good strategic move, but why then in view of a 'preplanned pincer movement' was the final order to join up in the (mangeni) valley. Surely that would negate your theory? Even if Durnford jaunting of up the Quabe valley doesn't?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:11 pm

Or maybe, it was just forgotten! in the sudden movement, and recalled
post Massacre, when focus on all things suddenly went into sharp relief.
my comments for Chelmsford's state of mind remarks can be found in
various book's and comments, " Fire Faster" . maybe i'm way off the mark
here, but i doubt it..i will dig around a bit..FA cup third round today. xhosa

Jaunting Springbok?..
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2312
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:16 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Well, something must have been said between LC and Crealock, maybe that's why the order never contained the words reinforce or strengthen, and maybe that is why nothing was said to Durnford about cancelling the pre planned pincer move, who knows?

Neither did it say Take Command. Going by previous orders issued by LC the were to the point, so why would he sent and order just move to the camp, without further explanation. He would of at lease stated await fresh orders. I personally don't think LC knew what Crealock had written.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:20 pm

Les
Jaunting yeah, you got cross when I said 'Poncing'. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2312
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:23 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Well, something must have been said between LC and Crealock, maybe that's why the order never contained the words reinforce or strengthen, and maybe that is why nothing was said to Durnford about cancelling the pre planned pincer move, who knows?

Martin, I think you put to much faith in Keith Smith's work. Albeit good.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:26 pm

impi
Clery said in a letter written much later talking about obvious instructions that: 'One doesn't tell a friend to remove his hat when visiting ones sister.' In other words senior officer in camp automatically takes control, army tradition of hundreds of years. Even when the senior is a genuine prat, that happened at helpmakaar.
But as you say, what LC said could have been anything, what Crealock wrote could again be anything. But and it is a big but, Crealock was a pretty meticulous writer and at that time ultra loyal to Chelmsford so its odds on that he communicated exactly what the General wanted. Im interested in waiting for JWs essay. Should prove highly controversial indeed.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:31 pm

Springy.

I have found the original conversation between Julian and myself on Thursday November the 12th 2012, however, with the topic being locked I cannot insert the 'quote' to show you what Julian said. But if you look in the search you should find it, a quick run down is that Julian said.

"Bengough's battalion was one arm of the pincer, Durnford the other, with Chelmsford in the centre waiting to crack whatever nut appeared. The orders of the 22nd endorse those of the 19th and follow on naturally (or so it must have seemed to Durnford). It's one continuous narrative and would have been all perfectly in keeping. No fresh orders means stick to the plan as dicussed. And so he did"

Salute
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:35 pm

impi wrote:
Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Well, something must have been said between LC and Crealock, maybe that's why the order never contained the words reinforce or strengthen, and maybe that is why nothing was said to Durnford about cancelling the pre planned pincer move, who knows?

Martin, I think you put to much faith in Keith Smith's work. Albeit good.

I don't have any of Keith Smith's work? scratch
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:36 pm

Springy, that should be November the 15th (caught the wrong key). Shocked
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:36 pm

Frank. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6289
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:42 pm

martin I agree, loosely, with what Julian said, but there was a plethora of movement orders that to my mind ensured that concept was still born long before iSandlwana. Plus of course in our climate of demanding source material, Julian isn't, that was his opinion. And he is of course entitled to that. However where does one stop stringing orders together and when does one start? The final orders to Bengough once and for all destroyed any concept of a pincer movement. It was rather a procession along a single road, and that decision was made on the 20th. Look at those orders carefully and Im sure you will agree there seems to be a distinct lack of any strategic plan.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2090
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:43 pm

The following is sheer speculation on my part, it has no basis whatsoever in evidence, either primary or secondary. So feel free to take it apart.

Frank mentioned something in passing a couple of days ago that prompted some thoughts about Chelmsford's intentions for Durnford.

Frank spoke about Durnford's mounted force forming a flanking screen for the rest of the camp, when it moved to join Chelmsford at Mangeni (perhaps later on the 22nd or the day after). I could buy that as a legitimate use of Durnford's assets.

Remember, Chelmsford had no thought for the defence of the camp at that early hour of the morning, he thought it was secure. He left no orders for Pulleine at all (neither did Glyn) He was focussed entirely on attack.

Now the order from Crealock never said protect the slow moving second half of the column, we know. But they would have been very vulnerable (much more so than in the camp) and we are trying to fill a gap in the information we have.

When Durnford reaches the camp, as ordered, something totally unexpected begins to unfold. But it's not a problem, the General wants the Zulu force to be engaged at all costs. Then it appears to Durnford that the Zulus are retreating. So, thinking they may slip out of his hands, Durnford pursues.

The rest is history, as they say.

Steve


Last edited by rusteze on Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:43 pm

impi wrote:
Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Well, something must have been said between LC and Crealock, maybe that's why the order never contained the words reinforce or strengthen, and maybe that is why nothing was said to Durnford about cancelling the pre planned pincer move, who knows?

Neither did it say Take Command. Going by previous orders issued by LC the were to the point, so why would he sent and order just move to the camp, without further explanation. He would of at lease stated await fresh orders. I personally don't think LC knew what Crealock had written.

impi. If you had ever been in the Army you would know that by Army protocol the senior officer is deemed to be in command, so Durnford would be deemed to be in command while he was at the camp, however, as soon as he left, command would be with Pulleine.
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:56 pm

Springy, Not long ago you posted a simple 'worker-Boss- stores' scenario. It was easy to see what you meant, that Durnford had other fish to fry rather than stay at the camp. Therefor, you must think that Durnford did have another agenda to follow, and that this had been arranged by LC. Or am I missing something?
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2554
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:59 pm

His agenda was his reputation.
I am down because I am left behind. But we shall see.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2090
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:06 pm

I think there is some truth in that. But you can take it as a positive or a negative influence. It can be said of many.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:06 pm

Steve.

The report did say that the zulus were retreating in all directions, however, it also said that one large group were heading in the direction of LC, to which Durnford said, "If they are heading towards the general, we must stop them at all hazzards". If these zulus were indeed heading towards LC, they might have been trying to cut him off or attack him, and with Durnford's men being mounted, he had to try to see what they were up to and try to stop them.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2090
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:09 pm

Yes Martin, I agree. another reason to leave the camp (but not with the Rocket Battery before someone raises it).

Steve
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:15 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
His agenda was his reputation.
I am down because I am left behind. But we shall see.

Yes, he was rather miffed at being wrongly blamed for BRP, and he must have felt that he was being overlooked by LC. He was also given an unfair rebuke by LC for doing what LC had previously given him permission to do, so really, he must have felt that his reputation was very unfair, and that is why he wrote that he was down.
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:18 pm

I just cannot understand the reason why the RB was attached to Durnford's column in the first place. scratch
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   

Back to top Go down
 
Durnford was he capable.5
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 20Go to page : 1, 2, 3 ... 10 ... 20  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: