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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorkes Drift roll of defenders
Yes
49%
 49% [ 23 ]
No
4%
 4% [ 2 ]
More research should have been done
45%
 45% [ 21 ]
It was all a publicly stunt
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Doesn't really matter
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 47
 

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SergioD

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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:35 pm

'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
2013-04-04 16:14:05.265 GMT


Jasper Copping
April 4 (Telegraph) -- A soldier who fought at Rorke’s Drift
but whose name was left off the 1879 battle’s roll of honour is
to be included in official records after his family were able to
prove he had been there.
Private David Jenkins survived the battle, at which a force
of just 150 British and colonial troops held off an attack on
their isolated outpost by 4,000 Zulu warriors.
However, when the official list of those who had fought
there was drawn up, just days after the clash, his name was
accidentally omitted.
Curators at the National Army Museum, though, have now
investigated his case and concluded that the solder, who served
with the 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot,
was present at the fighting, on the banks of the Buffalo River,
in South Africa, and should have been included on the roll.
They began their investigation after being contacted by
Jenkins’ relatives, who recognised his image being used in a
picture to promote a new exhibition at the museum.
The pencil sketch, by Lady Butler, a celebrated Victorian
war artist, is captioned simply “Jenkins” and for decades was
assumed to depict another soldier Private James "Edmund" Jenkins,
who was killed in the fighting.
But Geoff Rees, 62, Jenkins’ great-grandson, contacted the
west London museum to identify the man as his relative. He also
provided other evidence, including a bible which the soldier –
along with other survivors – had been given by the women of
Durban.
The family also had supporting evidence from the Brecon
regimental museum, which was able to find references to Jenkins
having fought at Rorke’s Drift.
A spokesman for the National Army Museum said “When his
great-grandson contacted us with irrefutable evidence proving
David Jenkins’ presence at the battle and his identity in the
museum’s sketch book, we set the record straight. Our curators
have looked into it and we accept that he was there, and in
future, we hope, all references will say that he was.”
Lady Butler had been commissioned by Queen Victoria to
commemorate the battle and her painting “The Defence of Rorke’s
Drift” was exhibited in 1880.
It was based on a series of sketches – including that of
“Jenkins” – which she had made when she visited the survivors on
their return to Portsmouth in October 1879 and was treated to a
re-enactment of the fighting. The museum, which holds the sketch
book, does not believe that Jenkins is actually featured in the
painting itself.
Mr Rees, from Swansea, said: “It’s nice that the history
books have finally been corrected to recognise his role.
“What I find most inspiring about the battle is that it was
won by ‘ordinary’ men who outwitted and outfaced the Zulus and
who fought so heroically for one another. How exposed must they
have felt at that moment, how their blood must have run cold, yet
they defended the outpost to a man over a nightmarish twelve hour
period.”
Jenkins was born in Defynnog, near Brecon, in 1846 and
enlisted for the town’s 25th Brigade at the age of 28, being
posted to South Africa in 1874. From 1882, he served with the
South Wales Borderers, becoming Lance Corporal the following
year.
He was discharged in 1888 and settled in Swansea, where he
became a store keeper at the city's docks.
According to research by his family, Jenkins was responsible
for saving the life of Major John Chard, the commanding officer
at Rorke’s Drift, by ducking his head down to miss a bullet. In
Zulu, the 1964 film depicting the battle, Chard is played by
Stanley Baker.
The reason for Jenkins’ omission from the roll is unclear,
but the list was known to have been drawn up by an officer from a
separate unit.
The original roll of honour cannot be revised. But the
museum is to ensure Jenkins’ name is added to any future lists of
those who fought.
The sketch of Jenkins was being used to promote an
exhibition entitled “Britain’s Greatest Battles”. The museum has
run an online poll asking people to vote what what they consider
to have been the country's greatest battles and Rorke’s Drift, on
January 22, 1879, came in the top five.
Eleven Victoria Crosses were awarded to defenders of the
small missionary outpost. Earlier the same day, the massed Zulu
army of 20,000 warriors had massacred the 2,000 British and
colonial forces 10 miles away at Isandlwana.
On April 20, the museum is holding a day of debate at which
historians will argue the case for each of the battles in the top
five, before those attending pick what they believe was the
greatest. The other four in contention are: Waterloo (1815),
Aliwal (1846), D-Day (1944) and Imphal and Kohima (1945).

I guess this sort of thing explains why a 24th SAGS costs £1000 + if you had that medal you have just made about £25-28000

Cheers

Sergio
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:41 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:21 pm

Dave wrote:
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Well, it is good to see that this brave Welshman has been recognised at last due to some concrete evidence. Salute

It would be fascinating to see the sketch of Jenkins by Lady Buller, next to his photograph which his grandson, Mr Rees from Swansea, used to ID Pte Jenkins.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:28 pm

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Photo: Wales News Service
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:39 pm

ZULU (The battle of Rorke's Drift) by Alan Gray

"Zulu's attacking, hundreds Sir" the sentry did report

"Hundreds?" said Bromhead glass to his eye

"Dear chap you missed off a nought !"

So swiftly they came where none stood before

out of the grass they appeared

Big giant fellows muscled and lithe

Banging hide shields with short handled spears

Transfixed by the sight fear in our eyes

the Sergeant cried out "fix bayonets"

"You're British" he said "let's see some pride"

and my heart danced a jig in my tunic

The order "fire !" was barked in our ears

Brave Zulu's fell like Martyrs

Our barrels glowed with bullets expelled

and the Boer said "that's for starters"

Words rang true relentless they came

engulfing the red with the brown

The blood of the brave was spilt on that day

like seeds on hallowed ground

Night brought respite exhausted we lay

nursing our wounds like sick dogs

Zulu's had gone quick as the came

drifting away like a fog

Morning came like a thief in the night

stealing our dreams as we slept

Brave were the men who stood for the fight

so few seemed so inept

For as the sun crept over the hills

and warmed us with his breath

Ten thousand Zulu we espied swathed in silhouette

Hearts they sank from our mouths to our boots

as we looked on with intrepid fear

When an old Zulu chief from afar waved his shield

we sensed that our ending was near

Then strange things occurred, did the Lord intervene

or was it a dream we implored

For the Zulu's turned from the front to the rear


leaving us lonely standing in awe

Up went a cheer gallant men wept

for the pure gift of life they received

"Bloody British" the old Boer muttered

It's heroes they've reprieved, it's heroes they've reprieved...

Hi, wrote this a few year ago. Hope you like it...
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:15 pm

Well done Alan, welcome to the forum and, very nice work.

Have you written very much poetry, do you write mainly war poetry, or on a wide range of subjects?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:20 am

Re ‘The Forgotten Survivor of Rorke’s Drift’ (DT 6.4.13), Pte, Jenkins’s great-grandson is a trifle late in discovering his relative fought in the battle.  Not only did Lady Butler know in 1880, when participants were sent to her to be sketched, but The Times (Oct 1879), the Regimental Record of Services, Jenkins’s own letter home (29.1.1879) which was published twice in local newspapers, and a Times report all record his presence there.  He was also introduced to the King as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post & Herald of Wales, both July 1904).  All this has been known to the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh for some years.  A Roll compiled by Lieut. Chard’s Driver Robson left out at least thirteen men (possibly three more).  Jenkins and the others may all be found in ‘England’s Sons’ available from the Museum (published 2004 - nine years ago!).


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:20 pm

Julian, I am not sure Jenkins' gt grandson was late in "discovering" the evidence that his ancestor fought at RD. I think the struggle he faced was getting it accepted and having him included in any future rolls of RD survivors.
As you say, there may be others, but if there is no descendant who cares to press the evidence and the point, they may never be included in the RD roll.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:43 pm

I am posting this on behalf of The Anglo Zulu War Historical Society as there are always two sides to any story



I think the recent press articles about discovering Private David Jenkins being a Rorke's Drift defender are a bit premature.(Various national newspapers 5th April).

I have been in regular contact with Mr Rees, Jenkins' relative, for about a year urgently searching for one shred of actual evidence to support his claim that this Private David Jenkins was anywhere near Rorke's Drift during the famous battle. Neither I, nor other reputable historians that I have contacted, who are well versed in this aspect of the history of Rorke's Drift, have yet been able to find any actual supporting evidence.

The forthcoming Anglo Zulu War Historical Society Journal, 1st June, investigates this more fully.
Dr Adrian Greaves
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:52 pm

David, are there not a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence as alluded to by JW in his post above?
We all know there were mistakes and erroneous ommissions and inclusions on Chard's and the other RD rolls.
From what I have read, unless what I have read is false or untrue, there seems to be a lot more certainty/ evidence to show that Jenkins was there than say someone, like, Adendorff for example.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:18 pm

Tasker
Jenkins is already accepted and he is already included in rolls. Bill Cainan and Martin Everett before him at the MRW both accepted the evidence.
David Payne
No disrespect but your 'well-versed reputable historians' (whoever they might be) might read the supporting evidence I cited previously. The Regimental Record of Services is enough of an indication by itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:38 pm

Tasker,

The Lady Butler sketch is viewable on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:44 pm

Interesting...
So apart from some authors agreeing Jenkins was at RD. what evidence is there to show this to be true.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:47 pm

Dave
Please look at and read the items listed on my post today at 12.20.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:55 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Tasker
Jenkins is already accepted and he is already included in rolls. Bill Cainan and Martin Everett before him at the MRW both accepted the evidence.
David Payne
No disrespect but your 'well-versed reputable historians' (whoever they might be) might read the supporting evidence I cited previously. The Regimental Record of Services is enough of an indication by itself.

But where's the evidence?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Dave, as JW has suggested already, read back through the thread. His service papers for one are proof in their own right. If you want to see the service papers for your self, you can look up his service records either at the RRW museum in Brecon, or on various websites such as:

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:21 pm

kwajimu1879 wrote:
Tasker,

The Lady Butler sketch is viewable on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

'Jimu


Thank you Jimu Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:22 pm

Dave. "Pte David Jenkings" is covered in Kris Wheatley's Legacy series.

Volume 9 pages 31 - 43 Covers his career indepth.

Read that and you will be in no doubt of his where abouts on the 22nd/23rd Jan 1879.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:51 pm

Thank you gents for clearing that up with Dave - I've been working away for a week and have had no internet access.
Julian
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:16 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:32 am

When you compare Lady Buller's sketch of Jenkins to the man on the bottom left of the painting, it is clear that that the man on the bottom left is Jenkins. Taken in conjunction with the bible, it is right that he is added to the RD roll.
Good work by Rees and Jenkins' family.

Is there any record of what if anything Jenkins said or claimed about his participation at RD, during his lifetime? (Or was he a man who didn'tt alk about it?)
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:13 pm

Hi Folks

I have read all of the comments with great interest however I have the following to add

It was stated in the newspapers at the time Jenkin's unit returned home that ‘amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were “a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….'who had been to the rear with prisoners'. Jenkins wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location which tallies with the words ‘to the rear’. If he had been at Rorke’s Drift, how did he then get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly.

I understand that there is a ledger at Brecon containing names of participants at Rorke’s Drift. One needs to know why it was compiled, and by whom, and further, who entered the name of David Jenkins and why. Curiously, and rather astonishingly, this ledger is not mentioned at all by Welsh historian and researcher Norman Holme, author of ‘The Noble 24th’, who, over many years, collated all known records of the 24th in Zululand. His research was conducted with the full support of the 24th Regimental Museum curator, Maj. Everett who made available the latest contents of the regimental archives and assisted Norman Holme ‘on virtually a daily basis’.
Norman Holme makes no mention of Pte. David Jenkins, other than recording that he was present in Zululand at the time.
Sadly we don't have any independent confirmation, or a convincing reason, for Pte David Jenkins being at Rorke’s Drift, Most of all, we don't have a clear, unequivocal claim from the man himself explaining his movements, or even claiming he was there.

If I can be satisfied that he was at RD I would be absolutely thrilled that he has received due recognition.

David
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:15 pm

Well, that throws a spanner in the works, and all valid points. So was Jenkins at RD?

Quote :
Jenkins wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location which tallies with the words ‘to the rear’. If he had been at Rorke’s Drift, how did he then get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly.

I understand that there is a ledger at Brecon containing names of participants at Rorke’s Drift. One needs to know why it was compiled, and by whom, and further, who entered the name of David Jenkins and why. Curiously, and rather astonishingly, this ledger is not mentioned at all by Welsh historian and researcher Norman Holme, author of ‘The Noble 24th’, who, over many years, collated all known records of the 24th in Zululand. His research was conducted with the full support of the 24th Regimental Museum curator, Maj. Everett who made available the latest contents of the regimental archives and assisted Norman Holme ‘on virtually a daily basis’.
Norman Holme makes no mention of Pte. David Jenkins, other than recording that he was present in Zululand at the time.
Sadly we don't have any independent confirmation, or a convincing reason, for Pte David Jenkins being at Rorke’s Drift, Most of all, we don't have a clear, unequivocal claim from the man himself explaining his movements, or even claiming he was there.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:51 pm

Ledger? What ledger? Where has that come from?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:47 pm

Perhaps Bill can shed some light?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:25 pm

Quote :
Subject: Re: 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:20 am

Re ‘The Forgotten Survivor of Rorke’s Drift’ (DT 6.4.13), Pte, Jenkins’s great-grandson is a trifle late in discovering his relative fought in the battle. Not only did Lady Butler know in 1880, when participants were sent to her to be sketched, but The Times (Oct 1879), the Regimental Record of Services, Jenkins’s own letter home (29.1.1879) which was published twice in local newspapers, and a fellow soldier’s letter home all record his presence there. He was also introduced to the King as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post & Herald of Wales, both July 1904). All this has been known to the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh for some years. A Roll compiled by Lieut. Chard’s Driver Robson left out at least thirteen men (possibly three more). Jenkins and the others may all be found in ‘England’s Sons’ available from the Museum (published 2004 - nine years ago!).

Julian, when you say, the Regimental knew about this years ago. Have you seen the evidence first hand?. Even if this is the case, its not really hard evidence. You say Jenkins is down in you book "Englands Sons" which suggest you were confident that he was at RD. What reference, did you use to establish this.

As David as pointed out.
Quote :
Jenkins wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location which tallies with the words ‘to the rear’. If he had been at Rorke’s Drift, how did he then get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly.


Was you aware of the letter inquestion, and how is it possible for him to get from RD to Pietermaritzburg in that time scale.



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:55 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Re ‘The Forgotten Survivor of Rorke’s Drift’ (DT 6.4.13), Pte, Jenkins’s great-grandson is a trifle late in discovering his relative fought in the battle. Not only did Lady Butler know in 1880, when participants were sent to her to be sketched, but The Times (Oct 1879), the Regimental Record of Services, Jenkins’s own letter home (29.1.1879) which was published twice in local newspapers, and a fellow soldier’s letter home all record his presence there. He was also introduced to the King as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post & Herald of Wales, both July 1904). All this has been known to the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh for some years. A Roll compiled by Lieut. Chard’s Driver Robson left out at least thirteen men (possibly three more). Jenkins and the others may all be found in ‘England’s Sons’ available from the Museum (published 2004 - nine years ago!).

Julian just out of interest, who were these fellow Soldiers who confirm Jenkins presence?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:32 pm

I am still yet to be fully convinced either way, but I am leaning towards the fact he was there.

The letter from Pietermaritzburg is a minor point and is leading some to jump to conclusions; Jenkins may well have written this letter on top of a burnt roof timber on the hospital at RD on the 26th, but due to the absence of a red pillar box at the mission station, this and the many other letters written, would have been transported to PMB for franking and mailing, arriving back in Britain a month or two later.

I think what would clinch it for me, would be at least one recorded story or claim,from Jenkins himself, that he was present during the RD battle. If on the other hand, this man had been trying to fabricate his involvement in the battle, would he not have written and said loads of BS about it? If this was the case, there should be hundreds of letters, notes from the man himself?

I can't see that he would have wanted to, or been allowed to blag his way into the bible presentation, or to sit in front of Lady Buller to have himself portraited, or been allowed to do this by fellow battle veterans, if he had not been there. On the balance of probablities, it is likely he was there.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:47 pm

Re 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins        

In a letter home (in Welsh) dated 28th January 1879 published in The Merthyr Express, 22nd March 1879 and in Welsh in Y Gwladgarwr, 28th March 1879 this 1/24th G coy soldier claimed that he was “one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies” from Isandhlwana.  There is no evidence to support that he was at Isandhlwana – G coy was stationed at Helpmekaar at the time - and the letter may refer simply to the 1/24th men at the Drift having escaped the massacre at the camp by dint of being at the Drift.
The letter does indicate his possible presence at Rorke’s Drift.  The Times (October 1879), on his return home, records his presence there and in the escort, he was in possession  
of a Rorke’s Drift Ladies’ Testimonial Fund Bible (inscribed on the flyleaf), and he is also recorded in the 1/24th Record of Services as having been present at the Drift.  Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to the Times report.  The bible and Record are all in the RRW Museum.  En route back to the Column Roy was admitted to hospital at Rorke’s Drift.  Lady Butler sketched (and named) Jenkins in 1880 as a study for her painting of the defence.  He was also introduced to King Edward VII as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post, 20th July 1904; Herald of Wales, 23rd July 1904).  His inclusion among the defenders solves the riddle of others having seen ‘Jenkins’ both in the hospital and on the wall (confusing this man with 25B/841 Pte. Jas. Jenkins, kia Rorke’s Drift).

I have seen all the information above myself over an extended period.


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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:51 pm

Hi all

The stance of the Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh is exactly as Julian has stated. This was all resolved many years ago. It is not "new" news as the flurry of recent newspaper articles has intimated.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:12 pm

Bill
Thank you.

Tasker and others
His letter is actually dated 28th not 26th. This was due to an earlier misprint, endlessly reproduced.

All
I would seriously like to know where David Payne has got this reference to a 'ledger' of participants' names being at the RWMuseum. No such source is recorded anywhere as Bill will confirm. This sort of spanner-in-the-works mythology never fails to rear its ugly head and, like the misprinted date mentioned above, takes enormous effort to negate. David, wherever you got this reference from, please make every effort to inform the source that it does not exist and never has.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:36 pm

Hi All

The AZWHS have been having correspondence with Martin Everett on this very matter and Martin refers to the following item..

Battalion Digest of Service 1/24th - David Jenkins listed [ledger held at Brecon museum].

Does anyone have a copy of the relevant pages so that we can see what is in the 'ledger'

I am only trying to get to the bottom of this and establish the facts with evidence.

Regards

David
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:44 pm

This 'ledger' is the Record of Services I referred to. Problem solved.
I have seen it. i do not have a copy. E-mail Bill for a scan.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:04 pm

So who and when, added him to the roll.

Julian. Impi wrote
Quote :
Englands Sons" which suggest you were confident that he was at RD. What reference, did you use to establish this

Not sure if you missed this. No doubt you would have used primary sources to substantiate his presence?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:49 pm

Julian, you mention that "Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a letter written by Col. Sergt. Wm. Edwards."
Given that these members of the 1/24th were present at RD and are on the roll, there is now no reason to think that Jenkins was not at RD either with his colleagues who were sent back with the prisoners.
Thanks for the information. Have you seen CS Edwards' letter with your own 2 eyes Julian? If so, that is good enough for me.
100% convinced Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 pm

The second Pte Jenkins on the Chard Roll

Even on the Chard RD roll, in addition to J. Jenkins who was killed, Chard records a second Jenkins on his roll.
Chard erroneously recorded a 1083 M. Jenkins on his roll of survivors, but 1083 M. Jenkins was killed at iSandlwana.
Apart from the assumption that Chard made a "mistake" on his roll by recording 2 Jenkins' one killed, one survivor, it would seem that Chard was probably correct after all - there WAS indeed a survivor of the RD battle by the name of Pte Jenkins.
OK, he mis-identified which particular Pte Jenkins this survivor was, but it is a better explanation .
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PostSubject: The second Pte Jenkins on Chard's Rorke's Drift Roll   Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:00 pm

Is it now accepted that when Chard erroneously recorded the presence of 1083 Pte M. Jenkins (kia iSandlwana) on his roll of RD survivors, in addition to 841 Pte J. Jenkins, killed, that the survivng Pte Jenkins to whom Chard was referring must have in fact been 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins?

See original copy of Chard's RD roll:
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:30 pm

I can only see one "James Jenkins" on this roll. And he was KIA. Roll taken from the RDVC.

"The Roll of those present at Rorke's Drift 22/23 January, 1879

This Roll is compiled from research undertaken by Julian Whybra and Norman Holme and is largely based on the Chard and Bourne Rolls.  Biographical notes on the soldiers of the 24th Foot who were present at Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift 22/23 January 1879 are contained in both 'The Roll Call for Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift' by Julian Whybra, published by Roberts Medals Publications and 'The Noble 24th' by Norman Holme, published in 1999 and obtainable from the South Wales Borderers' Museum, Brecon.

General's Staff

Maybin, G.W. Colour-Sergeant.

Royal Artillery N Battery 5th Brigade

Cantwell, John. Gunner 2076, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal
Evans, Abraham. Gunner 1643
Howard, Arthur. Gunner 2077
Lewis, Thomas. Bombardier. 458

Royal Engineers 5th Company

Chard, John Rouse Merriott, Lieutenant, awarded Victoria Cross
Robson, Charles John, Driver. 12046 (Chard's Batman)

2nd Battalion, 3rd (East Kent) Regiment of Foot (The Buffs)

Milne, Frederick. Sergeant. 2260

1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot

Beckett, William. Private. 25B/135, died of wounds 23 January 1879
Desmond, Patrick. Private. 25B/568
Horrigan, William. Private. 1-24/1861, killed in action 22 January 1879
Jenkins, James. Private. 25B/841, killed in action 22 January 1879
Nicholas, Edward. Private. 25B/625, killed in action 22 January 1879
Payton, Thomas. Private. 25B/372
Roy, William. Private. 1-24/1542, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal
Turner, Henry. Private. 25B/l04
Waters, John. Private. 1-24/447
Wilson, Edward. Sergeant. 25B/56

2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire)

Adams, Robert. Private. 25B/987 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Allen, William Wilson. Corporal. 2-24/1240, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross
Ashton, James. Private. 2-24/913, B Company
Barry, Thomas. Private. 25B/1381, B Company
Bennett, William Private. 25B/918, B Company
Bessell, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l287, B Company
Bly, John. Private. 2-24/2427, B Company
Bourne, Frank. Colour-Sergeant. 2-24/2459, B Company, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal
Bromhead, Gonville. Lieutenant, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross
Bromwich, Joseph. Private. 25B/1524, B Company
Buckley, Thomas. Private. 25B/1184, B Company
Burke, Thomas. Private. 25B/1220, B Company
Bushe, James. Private. 2-24/2350, B Company
Camp, William Henry. Private. 25B/1181, B Company
Chester, Thomas. Private. 25B/1241, B Company
Chick, James. Private. 25B/1335 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Clayton, Thomas. Private. 25B/755, B Company
Cole, Robert. Private. 25B/1459, F Company
Cole, Thomas. Private. 25B/801 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Collins, Thomas. Private.25B/1396, B Company
Connolly, John. Private. 25B/906, C Company
Connors, Anthony. Private. 2-24/2310, B Company
Connors, Timothy. Private. 2-24/1323, B Company
Cooper, William. Private. 2-24/2453, F Company
Davies, George. Private. 25B/470, B Company
Davis, William Henry. Private. 25B/1363, B Company
Daw, Thomas. Private. 25B/1178, B Company
Deacon, George. Private. 25B/1467, B Company, alias George D Power
Deane, Michael. Private. 25B/1357, B Company
Dick, James. Private. 2-24/1697, B Company
Dicks, William. Private. 2-24/1634, B Company
Driscoll, Thomas. Private. 25B/971, B Company
Dunbar, James. Private. 25B/1421, B Company
Edwards, George. Private. 25B/922, B Company, alias George Edward Orchard
Evans, Frederick. Private. 25B/953, H Company
Fagan, John. Private. 25B/969 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
French, George. Corporal. 2-24/582, B Company
Galgey, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/1713, D Company
Gallagher, Henry. Sergeant. 25B/81, B Company
Gee, Edward. Private. 2-24/2429, B Company
Hagan, James. Private. 25B/978, B Company
Halley, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l282, B Company
Harris, John. Private. 25B/1062, B Company
Hayden, Garret. Private. 2-24/1769 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Hayes, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/2067, B Company
Hitch, Frederick. Private. 25B/1362, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross
Hook, Alfred Henry. Private. 25B/1373, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross
Jobbins, John. Private. 25B/1061, B Company
Jones, Evan. Private. 25B/1428, B Company, alias Patrick Cosgrove
Jones, John. Private. 25B/1179, B Company
Jones, John. Private. 25B/970, B Company
Jones, Robert. Private. 258/716, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross
Jones, William. Private. 2-24/593, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross
Judge, Peter. Private. 2-24/2437, B Company
Kears, Patrick. Private. 25B/972, B Company
Keefe, James. Drummer 2-24/2381, B Company
Key, John. Corporal. 2-24/2389, B Company
Kiley, Michael. Private. 25B/1386, B Company
Lewis, David. Private. 25B/963, B Company, alias James Owen
Lines, Henry. Private. 2-24/1528, B Company
Lloyd, David. Private. 25B/1409, B Company
Lockhart, Thomas. Private. 25B/1176, B Company
Lodge, Joshua. Private. 25B/1304, B Company
Lynch, Thomas Michael. Private. 25B/942, B Company
Lyons, John. Corporal. 25B/1112, B Company
Lyons. John. Private. 2-24/1441, A Company
Manley, John. Private. 2-24/1731, A Company
Marshall, James. Private. 25B/964, B Company
Martin, Henry. Private. 25B/756, B Company
Mason, Charles. Private. 25B/1284, B Company
Maxfield, Robert. Sergeant. 25B/623 G Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Meehan, John. Drummer 2-24/2383, A Company
Minehan, Michael. Private. 2-24/1527, B Company
Moffatt, Thomas. Private. 25B/968, B Company
Morris, Augustus. Private. 25B/1342, B Company
Morris, Frederick. Private. 25B/525, B Company
Morrison, Thomas. Private. 25B/1371, B Company
Murphy, John. Private. 25B/662, B Company
Neville, William. Private. 25B/1279, B Company
Norris, Robert. Private. 25B/1257, B Company
Osborne, William. Private. 25B/1480, B Company
Parry, Samuel. Private. 25B/1399, B Company
Partridge, William. Private. 25B/1410, G Company
Pitt, Samuel. Private. 25B/1186, B Company
Robinson, Edward. Private. 25B/1286, B Company
Ruck, James. Private. 25B/1065, B Company
Savage, Edward. Private. 25B/1185, B Company
Saxty, Alfred. Corporal. 25B/849, B Company
Scanlon, John. Private. 25B/1051 A Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Sears, Arthur. Private. 2-24/2404, A Company
Shearman, George. Private. 2-24/1618, B Company
Shergold, John. Private. 2-24/914, B Company
Smith, George. Sergeant. 2-24/1387, B Company
Smith, John. Private. 25B/1005, B Company
Stevens ,Thomas. Private. 25B/777, B Company
Tasker, William. Private. 2-24/1812, B Company
Taylor, Frederick. Private. 25B/973, B Company
Taylor, James. Lance-Sgt. 25B/82, E Company
Taylor, Thomas Edward. Private. 25B/889, B Company
Thomas, John. Private. 25B/1280, B Company, alias Peter Sawyer
Thompson, John. Private. 25B/1394, B Company
Tobin, Michael. Private. 25B/879, B Company
Tobin, Patrick. Private. 25B/641, B Company
Todd, William John. Private. 25B/1281, B Company
Tongue, Robert. Private. 25B/1315, B Company
Wall, John. Private. 25B/1497, B Company
Whetton, Alfred. Private. 2-24/977, B Company
Wilcox, William. Private. 25B/1187, B Company
Williams, John. Private. 25B/1395, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross, alias John Fielding
Williams, John. Private. 25B/934, E Company
Williams, Joseph. Private. 25B/1398 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879
Williams, Thomas. Lance-Sergeant. 25B/1328, died of wounds 23 January 1879
Windridge, Joseph. Sergeant. 2-24/735, B Company
Woods, Caleb. Private. 25B/1316, B Company

90th Light Infantry

Graham, James. Corporal. 1123, alias Daniel Sheehan

Army Service Corps

Attwood, Francis. Second Corporal. 24692, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal

Army Commissariat and Transport Department

Byrne, Louis Alexander. Acting Storekeeper, (civilian attachment), killed in action 22 January 1879
Dalton, James Langley. Acting Assistant Commissary, awarded Victoria Cross
Dunne, Walter Alphonsus. Assistant. Commissary

Army Medical Department and Army Hospital Corps

Reynolds, James Henry. Surgeon. BA MB ChB, awarded Victoria Cross
Pearse, Mr., Surg. Reynolds's servant
Ludding, Thomas. Private.
McMahon, Michael. Private. 3359, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal
Miller, Robert. Corporal.

1st Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

Adendorff, James. Lieutenant
Mayer, Jessy H. Corporal.
A native of Mkungo's tribe, killed in action 22 January 1879

2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

Anderson, Michael. Corporal. , killed whilst deserting 22 January 1879
Doughty, William. Corporal.
Scammell, Carl. Corporal.
Schiess, Ferdnand Christian. Corporal., awarded Victoria Cross
Wilson, John. Corporal

Natal Mounted Police

Green, Robert S. Trooper.
Hunter, Sydney H. Trooper., killed in action 22 January 1879
Lugg, Henry. Trooper.

Acting Chaplain to the Volunteers

Smith, George. The Reverend
The Rev Smith's native servant
Daniels, Mr

Not included in these figures are those who did not remain to assist in the defence viz.  Stevenson's Natal Native Contingent detachment, Henderson's fugitive Natal Native Horse from Isandhlwana, Otto Witt and his native companion, Lieutenant Thomas Purvis 1st Battalion, 3rd Regiment, Natal Native Contingent - a hospital patient - who accompanied Witt to safety, Chard's native voodooper, Chard's native waggon driver who hid In a cave on the Oscarberg throughout the attack, and all those fugitives from Isandhlwana who stopped to give a warning and rode on.  Of all the latter only Adendorff remained to assist in the defence and is thus the only man to have fought in both the Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift actions.

I may have missed the other Jenkins, happy to be corrected.

So the question still remains. " Who Added Jenkins to the Roll Call
"

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:37 pm

Quote :
Is it now accepted that when Chard erroneously recorded the presence of 1083 Pte M. Jenkins (kia iSandlwana) on his roll of RD survivors,

There is no "M Jenkins" recorded on Chards Roll scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:49 pm

Impi,

I would hazard a guess and say that the roll of Defenders on RDVC hasn't been updated for a while.

For example we now know what Mr. Daniells' initial was...

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:08 pm

Thanks Jim. Do you know who up dates it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:34 pm

Try looking at Chard's original roll, not the one that historians have corrected.

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The two Jenkins' are numbers 11 and 17 on Chard's roll.
Number 11 is the second surviving Jenkins to which the title of this thread refers. (1083 Jenkins is Pte Matthew Jenkins who was in fact killed at iSandlwana)
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:39 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:48 pm

I read it as being Major Martin Everett who added Jenkins to the roll. Personaly I don't think there are a primary sources available to substaiate that David Jenkins was at Isandlwana or Rorkes Drift.
The link above shows a sketch of a soldier, recognised as being David Jenkins. scratch When was that sketch made. To me he looks like every other soldier that took part in the Zulu War.

PS I have highlighted the section regarding the ledger spoke of by David Payne, now confirmed in writing by Major Everett.


Quote :
""The letter mentions the deaths of Sergeant Instructor of Musketry George Chambers who married Elizabeth, daughter of Isaac Lewis of Brecon, in January 1877 and her brother Gunner Thomas Lewis of Royal Artillery, who was involved in the fighting at Rorke’s Drift which took place some 12 hours after the disaster at Isandlwana. George Chambers’s name is remembered to this day on his father-in-law’s headstone in Brecon Cemetery and in the Regimental Museum where a coalport mug given to George and Elizabeth as a wedding present is on display.

David Jenkin’s letter suggests that he was one of the fortunate survivors of Isandlwana. However, only 10 men out of nearly 600 men of the regiment escaped and their handwritten accounts prepared, but not used, in the subsequent Court of Enquiry, are held in the regimental archives. There is no report from 295 Pte. David Jenkins of Defynnog. Furthermore, we know that David Jenkins was in G (Rainforth’s) Company 1/24th which was held in reserve at stores depot at Helpmekaar, some 20 miles from Isandlwana. The actual whereabouts of David Jenkins during the period on 22/23 January 1879 was not clear.

After 127 years, Mrs Gittoes was able to solve the mystery with tangible evidence – a Rorke’s Drift Testimonial Bible presented to each of the gallant defenders by the ladies of Durban. The name of the soldier is inscribed in the flyleaf of each bible. This bible containing David Jenkins’s name was identical to others held by the Regimental Museum; there was no doubt over its authenticity.

We knew of the possibility of two soldiers named “Jenkins” from 1/24th being at Rorke’s Drift and the various rolls were not able to shed light on the matter. A soldier named 841 Pte. James Jenkins was a patient at Rorke’s Drift but had been killed by the Zulus as they plundered through the hospital building and his name appears on the memorial at Rorke’s Drift; Colour Sergeant Bourne, the redoubtable senior NCO, at Rorke’s Drift, mentions 1083 Pte. M Jenkins but he was killed at Isandlwana. This prompted a search through the Regimental Archives and we were able to find a reference to Pte. David Jenkins 1/24th being at Rorke’s Drift in the handwritten ledger containing the records of the 1st Battalion. So with some confidence, we were able to add David Jenkins’s name to the roll of Rorke’s Drift defenders. Interestingly, in his letter David had quite naturally concentrated on telling his family of his lucky survival from Isandlwana when many local men had been killed – Rorke’s Drift on the other hand was not yet news as the announcement of the award of Victoria Crosses to the eleven defenders was published much later"

Martin Everett Curator of The Royal Regiment of Wales Museum, The Watton, Brecon. Write's

Source: Hanes News Letter."
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:51 pm

Ok so where is "Pte James Jenkins" KIA RD.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:02 am

Dave
I've forgotten when exactly it was accepted that Jenkins was at RD - some time ago - 2002 or 2003 - that's why the sudden newspaper and belated family fuss all seems a bit late.  All a bit, been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt!
Tasker
Yes, I have seen the Times report with my own eyes.  So has Bill, so has Martin.  For me it's a clincher because it provides independent corroboration that Jenkins was with the prisoner guard party that returned from Isandhlwana.
Impi
On the official Roll there WERE two Jenkins - the second one is usually excluded because it was thought to refer accidentally to the Pte. Jenkins kia at Isandhlwana.
All
Can we please stop calling the Records of Service, the 'ledger', as this will cause endless confusion if referred to in subsequent posts, other threads, etc.  It is NOT a list of participants at RD as someone has stated; it contains records of service personnel in the 24th.


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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:40 am

Julian Whybra wrote:

On the official Roll there WERE two Jenkins - the second one is usually excluded because it was thought to refer accidentally to the Pte. Jenkins kia at Isandhlwana.

A lesson here perhaps for all historians. DON'T TAMPER WITH THE PRIMARY SOURCES.
Chard was there! Chard probably spoke to the soldiers who had survived the battle of Rorkes Drift, on asking the name of one of the 1/24th party, he was told "Private Jenkins" . Chard wrote down the name. He heard what he heard. Subsequently, the wrong Pte Jenkins of the 24th was noted on the roll, yes Chard made a mistake here, but not an unreasonable or inexplicale one.

I wonder if 1083 Watkin Jenkins and 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins himself were related in any way, brothers perhaps?
They were only 2 years apart in age and both enlisted at Brecon. It is not inconceivable that Sgt Edward Wilson, maybe, if he knew the two brothers, would easily mistake one for the other. When Chard asked him to clarify the first name and number of the Pte Jenkins in his party, that he named the wrong "Private Jenkins."
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:47 am

impi wrote:
Ok so where is "Pte James Jenkins" KIA RD.

Really?
The two Jenkins' are numbers 11 and 17 on Chard's roll. Here is a photo of Chard's roll:

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Number 17.
It is on the roll where it says: 841 Pte Jenkins (KILLED).

The second Pte Jenkins is number 11 on the roll where it is written: 1083 Pte Jenkins.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:48 am

Tasker
Remember that it may well have been Cantwell who compiled the list, not Chard himself, so even more room for errors to creep in, and there are plenty of those in the 'Chard' Roll. And don't be too harsh on 'historians', the regtl. no. was given for the Jenkins who was kia Isandhlwana, so, that his inclusion was an error was a natural assumption to make. Nevertheless, you ARE right, the 'Chard' Roll compiler was aware that there were TWO men called Jenkins 1/24th at RD on 22-23rd Jany.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:57 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Tasker
Remember that it may well have been Cantwell who compiled the list, not Chard himself, so even more room for errors to creep in, and there are plenty of those in the 'Chard' Roll. And don't be too harsh on 'historians', the regtl. no. was given for the Jenkins who was kia Isandhlwana, so, that his inclusion was an error was a natural assumption to make. Nevertheless, you ARE right, the 'Chard' Roll compiler was aware that there were TWO men called Jenkins 1/24th at RD on 22-23rd Jany.

Hi Julian
I wasn't trying to be harsh on historians, you all do a great job! Your hours, decades of painstaking research certainly make the life of us keen amateurs a whole lot easier, doing the hard yards for us!
In retrospect however, it does seem odd - and I realise it is always easy to say with the benefit of hindsight - that no one questioned or gave much thought as to WHY 1083 Pte Jenkins' name was erroneously included on the Chard roll - and Bourne's for that matter, other than to assume it was just some scatter-brained inclusion error from a not very bright, mediocre officer of the RE, until Rees, David Jenkins' gt gt grandson came along and picked up the baton. Chard was there. I understand Chard didn't finalise the official roll, but his list of men present, must have been based on his first hand jottings of who was there.
My old training section cpl always used to warn, "when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME."
I know he didn't invent the term, but as a young man, it made an impression on me!
Tasker Salute
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