Pte 922 George Edwards (Alias Orchard) and Pte 2744 Charles Moore

Going through a box of odds and sods in my collection I came across this from the Journal of the South Wales Borderers, April 1940:-

"No922 25th Bde Private G. Edwards (alias Orchard) died at his home, Paulton, near, Bristol on 14th February and was buried there on the 18th February. Mr Orchard was one of the survivors of the Defence of Rorke's Drift, and joined the Regiment on the 24th Nov 1876, being discharged at Brecon on November 1886. He was 84 years of age.
During the South African War, he joined the Royal Defence Corp in March 1900 until March 1901.
A Firing Party, bearers and buglers were supplied with his funeral by the Gloucestershire Regiment, and among the wreaths were:-
(a) From B Coy 2/24th Regt. (his old Coy.)
(b) From the survivors of the action -
Lt.Col.F. Bourne, Dr P. Hayes, Ptes W. Cooper, J. Dunbar, T. Lockhart and J. Thomas.

Mr C. Moore, another Zulu veteran, died at Norwich on 18th February and was buried there on the 20th February. He was 81 years of age and joined the Regiment at the age of 16 in 1875. He also served in the South African War 1899-1902 and joined the Home Defence Force during the Great War"

As a RD defender there is plenty about George out there.
The other man, I'm assuming, is Private 2744 C. Moore of 2nd Battalion though it seems his first name is unknown as it is not shown in any medal rolls. Anyone any idea of his first name?
Kate

Kate,

Are you becoming an American?  What is with this ‘Pvt’ business?  Don’t you mean Pte.?

JY

There is also a reference further down the page to:-
"Lt.Col. Alfred Godwin Godwin Austin who died at Surbiton on the 11the December aged 95 and was buried at Brookwood Cemetery on the 14th December, He transferred to the Regiment as a captain from the 89th Foot, 22/5/75; Major 1/7/81; retired 30/5/85.
His son A.R. is still on the active list and received congratulations on his promotion in our last number"

Kate

Y’All come back now!

With apologies to our American forum members...

JY

Ive seen the 'Toon' play, reminds me very much of the Dallas cheerleaders.

In fact their is quite a bit about Zulu War 'personalities' in this edition that I might try to post up when I get time.
Kate

And they play some good music!  Going Home by the legend that is Mark Knopfler...

JY

Page 9 has details of Glyn, Henry Degacher and George Paton C.M.G who was on Sir Bartle Freres staff.
Kate

Kate, can you try and stay on topic.

Hi All, According to BirthsMD a Charles Moore dies Norwich district age 81.
Rai KLH

I'm not a member of the website from where this information came from. But there is some information. Click here link to website.

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Both possibles good work
Kate

Charles Moore buried Earldan Cemetery Norwich Ref v/655, listed with same address 120 Churchill Rd Norwich, he is buried with a Rebecca Moore died/buried 8 Feb 1951 aged 86, probably his wife.
Rai KLH

Fantastic work Rai.
I will post his full name in the title of the thread for future reference.
Kate

25B/2744 Pte. Charles Moore enlisted 24/08/1876 Norwich into 1/9th Regt (31B/1285) transferred to 104th Regt 01/09/1877 (70B/1006 or 1106). Transferred to 2/24th 27/05/1877 on payment 2/24th 17/07/1879

Charles Moore was my great great great grandfather. Going through some of my dad's pictures I found an article from 1987 regarding a relative on a different branch of the family trying to locate the whereabouts of the meddles of Charles. I've not heard of this relative before to be honest, only started looking him up after finding the article.

If anything else has been found about Charles, I'd love to hear it to pass on to my dad

Hi Jdurrant

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Sale 100 24–26 Jul 2012 Hotel InterContinental Sydney
SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL 1879. 2744. Pte C.Moore. 2-24th Foot. Engraved. Extremely fine.
Estimate $500
SOLD $730

Charles Moore, age 18, enlisted at Norwich, 31 Bde Depot; 1Oct1876 to 1/9th Foot; 01Jul-31Aug1877 in Dublin (in cells from 4-10 July and absent from 29 August and transferred to 104 Regt); 01Sep1877 to 104th Foot; on furlough 01Dec1877-14Jan1878; in detention from 01-04May1878 & 19-25Jan1879 (Battalion in Curragh until March 1878 when it moved to Belfast); 17Jul1879 to 2/24 Foot in Natal; present with 2/24th in Gibraltar 01Jan-11Aug1880; in India from 01Oct1880-27Jan1883 and then returned to England. With photocopy of a pay list and roll page confirming medal entitlement with no clasp.
https://noble.com.au/auctions/lot?id=292571

Andy

Hi Jdurrant

Hope this is helpful

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Andy

Hi JDurrant,
Sorry to disappoint you but the newspaper article seems to be dressing up Charles Moore’s involvement in the Zulu War I believe (as reporters often did sadly). He certainly was not a Rorkes Drift defender during the battle on 22/23rd Jan 1879, although he may well have passed through there at some point. That said the medal roll says he was entitled to to South Africa Medal without clasp which means he did not cross over the border into Zululand and probably served in Natal somewhere in the latter stages of the war. If he was only on the 2/24th pay strength from 17/7/1879 the war was all over bar the shouting by then.

Nevertheless a great photo of your relative. He deserved a medal for sporting a moustache like that!! :)

Regards. Phil.

Herbie wrote:

Nevertheless a great photo of your relative. He deserved a medal for sporting a moustache like that!! :)

Hi Herbie

And well into later life as well!

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Andy

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Western Mail - Wednesday 21 February 1940

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Somerset Guardian and Radstock Observer - Friday 23 February 1940

First article states Drummer Hodges as a Rorke's Drift surviver?? 
Every other member of the group of survivers mentioned with Lt col Bourne are RD Survivors, but there is no surviver listed as Drummer Hodges on the Roll.

The article lists the six remaining survivers at the time of print 1940 who combined sent a signed wreath (article: and the wreaths, including one from the six remaining survivers).
This seems to suggest that Lt Col Bourne has arranged for this wreath to be sent on behalf of the remaining defenders at that time.

This author has actually looked at the wreaths sent, as they usually do, and has written the names that are on that card.
Why would a non defender be included on a wreath meant to be from surviving defenders.???

Eddie,

The article is at fault, it should read Drummer Patrick Hayes as mentioned by Kate in her 24th October 2021 entry.

JY

John I don't see anything that you mention 21Oct, 2021 by Kate. Is it on another thread?
Was there a Drummer Hodges anywhere else in the 24th?

Eddie,

In this thread dated 24th October 2021:

"No922 25th Bde Private G. Edwards (alias Orchard) died at his home, Paulton, near, Bristol on 14th February and was buried there on the 18th February. Mr Orchard was one of the survivors of the Defence of Rorke's Drift, and joined the Regiment on the 24th Nov 1876, being discharged at Brecon on November 1886. He was 84 years of age.
During the South African War, he joined the Royal Defence Corp in March 1900 until March 1901.
A Firing Party, bearers and buglers were supplied with his funeral by the Gloucestershire Regiment, and among the wreaths were:-
(a) From B Coy 2/24th Regt. (his old Coy.)
(b) From the survivors of the action -
Lt.Col.F. Bourne, Dr P. Hayes, Ptes W. Cooper, J. Dunbar, T. Lockhart and J. Thomas.”

JY

Thanks for that John. 
I can see Hayes has been typed in replace of Hodges, and maybe it was a mistake. But if it wasn't, I was wondering if there was ever a Drummer Hodges in the company or regiment? 
We can not assume because there is another drummer with an H in his surname that he is the person mentioned. With that said, I'm sure Kate would have checked.
Thanks Eddie

Eddie,

If you look at the above report from the Somerset Guardian & Radstock Observer of 23rd February 1940. The self same reporter has shown Frank Bourne’s Distinguished Conduct Medal as a D.S.O. So their reporting is clearly not without error.

JY

Hi JY
Not much has changed in the land of reporting ! , many errors from back in the day.... but , information , was far more difficult to obtain , and was more labor intensive compared to todays click of a button !
90th

Thank you JY/90th

With respect, we cannot always assume. D Jenkins has taught us that. Are we assuming because Drummer Hayes was a RD defender that the author meant him, without checking if there ever was a Drummer Hodges in the 24th or attachments?

I have seen other authors besides this one state the DCM the DSO, why?, I don't know. Perhaps at that time back in the day they referred to it as being Distinguished Service??

To my original question: Was there a Drummer Hodges in the 24th or attachments at that time?

There is no Drummer Hodges in the AZW 24th Regiment medal rolls.

Thank you, that was what I was questioning.  
I wasn't implying you hadn't checked previously in my post, I was just making a point.

Do not believe all you read in newspapers - always take what you read with a pinch of salt as they say.  Do the research before you waste time posting.  

If you read the SWB regimental Journal No 17 dated April 1940:

The following were present at Pte Edwards (alias Orchard) funeral on 4 February 1940:
Lt Col F Bourne, Dmr P Hayes, Ptes W Cooper, J Dunbar, T Lockhart and J Thomas.

Dmr Hayes died 4 October 1940 which was reported in Journal No 19 dated April 1941.

Thank you Kenny. Nice introduction 

Thank you for your advice it is much appreciated. However, I spent 23 years in the forces being told what to do, I really don't need it now.

Initially I was asking a question, then, making a point about assuming information in the article to be that what you believe to be the norm, without double checking all other avenues first. Admittedly without having the information you have kindly provided.
The newspaper article above did not state the defenders were present, only that they had provided a wreath, containing an incorrect or new name as a defender, hence my initial question.

I have mentioned this before, D Jenkins has taught us not to take what we read or see with a pinch of salts, and I will not do so. I will continue to ask questions, and question the evidence to gain the facts.

We all have an interest in a subject, in many cases a passion, but we all started out with the basic knowledge, just as I have.
There are many members with many years of hard study and research behind them. Many being well known historians having probably studied in university to take up such a career, some of us chose a different career. I take my hat off to some brilliant historians and authors on this site, who better to gain knowledge from, ask questions of, and learn from.

With respect Eddie