Welsh victory.

Why did Rorke’s Drift go down in the History books? As a Welsh victory. It doesn’t bother me, but just wondered why.

South Wales Borderers

Mr G. In 1879 The regiment was know as the 24th Regiment of Foot which became part of the South Wales Borderers and then the Royal Regiment of Wales.

The Regimental Depot had been established at Brecon, in South Wales, in 1873, By 1879 there was a considerable increase in Welsh recruits within the ranks. Like every regiment in the British army - recruits were signed on at recruiting depots across the country, and the 24th consisted of men from England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

This led to a somewhat higher proportion of Welshman in the ranks.

Nonetheless, a search of the regimental roll can find only 19 men of B Company, 2/24th, with any sort of Welsh association making a total garrison of about 140. So the Welsh deputation encompass no more than 15% of the entirety.

See the regimental stories thread on here started by Neil
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Subject: Regimental Stories Tuesday 20th Sept Sat 17 Sep - 21:16

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Just to let you know, BBC 4 at 20.30 Regimental stories is showing, and the first in the series is the Royal Welsh. Hopefully the footage they took with Bill at the Museum at Brecon, then with myself and Keith on the range at Stennybridge with the squaddies and Martini's is featured. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


IN THIS DOCUMENTARY, THE NARRATOR STATED THAT 1 OUT OF EVERY 3 MEN IN B COMPANY 24TH, WHO DEFENDED RD, WAS A WELSHMAN.
If we assume that the research in this excellent documentary is reliable (and I am not nearly expert enough to verify this) then there is your answer.
After the Carden reforms, this regiment recruited solely from Wales, as opposed to Wales AND elsewhere, so at the time, this was the nearest the Army had to a "Welsh Regiment."
If we are to get pinickity over this as a Welsh Victory, then we will need to be equally pinickity over the Scots' Victory of their thin red line tipped with steel at Balaklava, and credit Her Majesty's Army's Victories from the Napoleonic Wars onwards, not as British, but as Irish victories in the main.

Mr Impi, what history books have you been reading ? no such thing as a " Welsh Victory ? the 24th Regiment of Foot was the ( 2nd Battalion Warwickshire Regiment ) at the time of Rorke's Drift, not until 1881 did it become SWB.

It was an English Regiment with a few foreigners from Wales in it.

Hi 

Mr jgregory have you noticed the dates of the posts above.

jgegory -  respect to all whoever served under the name, but it was the Warwickshire regiment in name only by 1879, no matter what figures you come up with. 
Guest -  there were over 32 Welshmen present, so a much higher percentage than you say, and by the way, you are talking about a single Company of men, not the whole regiment.
Even Lt Colonel Degacher, the Commanding officer of the 24th, said it was fought mainly by your Countrymen in his letter to the Brecon Council in 1879.
Now this has been done to death and things got a little heated, with warnings the last time this subject was raised, so be polite and understand that everyone has right to a view, right or wrong. That includes Welshmen.

If anything, it was a British victory, as there were many nationalities involved.

A British victory.  No question.  Please DON'T rake up anti-Welsh, anti-English antagonism.  It doesn't become us.

Ahem! And American please gentlemen.!

Hmmmm....Frank....just who was Yankee Dan (I think its was?)?

Ps don't forget the Swiss contribution to the victory....

Oooooops! I left the DON'T out of my last post. Makes a hell of a difference to its reading! I've just edited it to read aright.
P.S. And the German contribution.

Hi Julian 

German? Are you referring to a man, or a voice Symon's refers to in his diary, or was Schiess, Witt or someone else a German?

Think about it!

Don’t forget the man from Versailles!

John Young wrote:

Don’t forget the man from Versailles!

Gonny B......

Julian,

Was the German one of the original Village People?

JY

Ok Eddie, Warwickshire by name only by 1879. Lets talk about the actual 24th Regiment not a Battalion not a Company but the Regiment. How many Welsh were actually serving, does anyone know ? how many Welsh at Isandlwana ? was it a Welsh defeat there or what if it had been a victory would the Welsh claimed that as well. I do have Welsh friends so I am not being difficult.

Hi Julian/All 

I don't think Adendorff was German, so I'm not sure.

Jgregory - it was a British defeat at Isandlwana. You know my view on the regiment, that was exactly the point I was making, the regiment in 1879, not a company. 
For the record, no Welshman was claiming any victory.
You can go on facts, as in regimental archives, literature, newspaper archives and logic, take your pick. Your entitled to any view you have. Also please list any factual information you may unearth, everyone would welcome to learn of anything new. Cheers.

Eddie,

South African born, but of German extraction the family originated from Adendorf, Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen, or if you prefer it Adendorf, Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia.

JY

Hi John 

Thank you, I knew he was born in South Africa, but as you say, of German decent. For some reason, I had Austria in my mind, perhaps I have read that somewhere.
Also Bromhead was born in France I believe, died in India very young, so very sad. Many a sad story of survivors in later life.

Eddie
A decent German of German descent.
jgregory
England's Sons pp. 92-96
All
Corp. Miller was a kiwi. Corp. Key and Sergt. Wilson were both born in British India.

Hi Julian 

Yes but he was I agree.
I quote William Jones VC, claimed as an English VC recipient born in Bristol, but his parents were Welsh from Monmouth, who went to Bristol to work.
You refer jgregory to English Sons, but what he reads there does not change the fact that the regiment was English in name only by 1879. You can take the Monmouthshire men out of the Welsh total as much as you wish, that still don't change the fact.
No one can say what nationality an individual person was, or where a person's alleagence stood. Some of the  English soldiers listed had Welsh parents or grandparents, and the same for others, may have had English parents.
With respect I don't agree with your interpretation of the numbers you publish, at the end of the day you and I can only assume a persons affiliation, with a few facts that we may have. Do we go by where a person was born, by his parents or by the male parent, who knows what they believed. 
William Jones VC stating they all fought like Englishmen does not mean he saw himself as such, all fought for the English Crown and referred to good old England, yes they did.
Anti Welsh, Anti English antoganism you quote above, then you wonder where it stems from.
Respect.

Sime
Yankee Dan was the Pontman / Ferryman Daniels... who was by all reports was American , hence the Monika ' Yankee ' . Sgt Milne
2/3rd but serving in the Mtd Inf had been Volunteering to operate the Pont with Daniels , both offered to moor the Pont midstream and defend it , Chard refused the offer .
90th

Hi Gary,

How's things?

You recovered from the Fiji score yet?

Re Yankee Dan: I was just wondering if anything more had been unearthed about him in, during the time I have been less active and before I go into hibernation again..

Cheers

Sime

Hi Sime
Yes Mate all good here as I hope you are ? . Not a rugby fan , only found out it was the Union World Cup yesterday , I did think we'd lose as I saw on the news that we have plenty out injured . I'm from an Aussie Rules State ( Victoria ) where Rugby isn't really a thing , although we do have Melbourne Storm who play in the Rugby league Competition here in Australia , but I don't even think Union is played here in Victoria !? , from memory it's only played in Queensland and possibly slightly in NSW ? .
90th

Really Eddie?
Quote
Yes but he was South American, of German decent, not German as stated." ?

Cheers

Sime
Rather ask Gary about the one day series?

Cheers Mate

Hi Frank 

I realised my mistake, thank you, amended.

I think he's sulking about the ODIs - plus I didn't want to upset his day.

I often snigger when I see a blue plaque saying "so and so was born here" - you can choose where you live, you can choose to some degree where you die (in so far as your home) but you don't have much choice where you are born.

When did modern passports come in, I know the origins of the 'pass port' letter but I'm referring to to the official document - could Bromhead have had joint citizenship?

What makes your nationality your place of birth or place of upbringing....

In the 1870s (for example) could you just get on a ship in, say, France and pile out in London docks without anyone checking?

Ta

Sime

I do not get this idea that the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment was English in name only in 1879. We all know that there where 20/30 Welsh at Rorke's Drift, depending on who wrote the list. Who can say how many Welsh officer's, senior nco's and other ranks where in the regiment prior to 1879.

Eddie
"the regiment was English in name only by 1879":
I think you mean 'battalion' rather than 'regiment'.
And it wasn't.  It was a British regiment.
"With respect I don't agree with your interpretation of the numbers you publish":
At the time I included this section in the book there was a lot of controversy about English-Welsh origins of the men involved.  I decided to simply record the countries of birth as KNOWN.  I did this by place of birth, where possible.  In 1879 Monmouthshire WAS politically, administratively and geographically in England, which is why it appears where it does.  Even so, I was careful to make a special note regarding its position.
You are free to disagree with an "interpretation of numbers".  So count them differently, justify each one rationally, and publish them.
"William Jones VC stating they all fought like Englishmen does not mean he saw himself as such":
I'm afraid it does. one has only to read their letters to see how often they referred to themselves as English or being in the English Army.  This can be read two ways - first that English was simply used as commonly as British and meant the same thing - secondly that they viewed Wales then in much the same way as Cornishmen view Cornwall today.  I think the reality lay somewhere between the two.  The Welsh then, much as it may pain some people today, were not as conscious of 'nationality' as they are today.  Perhaps the expert in this field is Paul Bryant-Quinn (also a member of this forum) and I suggest you pm him for more on this subject.
"Anti Welsh, Anti English antoganism you quote above, then you wonder where it stems from":
I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not but I really dislike the whole notion of it.  How wonderful is it that a united kingdom like ours can put to bed age-old resentments for past battles, rivalries and wrongs and combine for the greater good.  What an example to the world!  We, as a people, are better than to be engaging in trivial niggling.
I take your point about Welshmen moving to England and still being Welsh, but the movement went both ways.  My wife's grandfather was from Co. Cork, fought on the N.W. Frontier and the Boer War in Irish regiments, moved to Glamorganshire to be a miner, volunteered for WW1, fought at Gallipoli in the Munster Fusiliers, joined the RAF as an engineer post-war in Surrey, returned to live in the Free State, came to work in England on the railways in WW2 and is buried in Leicester.  All his life he was a proud Irishman but also a West Briton and thoroughly believed that we are stronger together as a United Kingdom.  The breakdown of numbers I give in England's Sons simply underlines that point.  Rorke's Drift was a British victory won by a British regiment.

Maybe one question we should be asking is - how were the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish represented in other 'English' Battalions.

Brings to mind this rather good Scotish rugby team with a Van Der Merwe, Steyn, Nell and Schoeman, not to mention Pieter De Villiers. But its a Scotish team,.
My giggles come about with the Labuschagne's around the world, Aussies call him LAB A SHANE and the Japanese are even better with LABAS SHAG ME. Whilst in RSA it rhymes with James Cagney and the Scots have stopped picking him because they cant pronounce it at all.

SRB
From what I've seen the same is true, although a lot depends on WHEN one is looking.  But generally speaking:
Scottish battalions are predominantly Scottish with a considerable minority of English, and smaller ones of Welsh/Irish.
Irish battalions are predominantly Irish with smaller elements from the other three nations.
English battalions, much more of a mixture, the mixture increasing or decreasing depending on the locale.
Welsh battalions about 60-40 in favour of Welsh, the smaller half being English.
I must emphasize the WHEN.  I would say the above is an approximation for the 3rd quarter of the C19.

Frank
Precisely.

Frank Allewell wrote:

My giggles come about with the Labuschagne's around the world, Aussies call him LAB A SHANE and the Japanese are even better with LABAS SHAG ME. Whilst in RSA it rhymes with James Cagney and the Scots have stopped picking him because they cant pronounce it at all.

Lavatory Chain....
.

Julian,

I wonder if that is because of less social movement from England to Ireland, Scotland and Wales, than the opposite direction.

The migration of the Irish (worldwide) is well documented and maybe Scotland had less opportunities than industrialising England.....I believe Dr Johnson commented on something similar (which I am not going to repeat on this August forum)

Cheers

Not necessarily. People moved where the work was. My relative kia at Isandhlwana came from a tiny village near Coggeshall, Essex (itself a tiny village). How he came to enlist in the 1st battalion 24th is a mystery. Another relative ended up in the RW Fusiliers. Yet the family has no connexion with Wales.
I think there was a lot of movement across the Scottish and Welsh borders where 'identity' was not so clear cut so a Geordie joining a Scots Border regt was a frequent occurrence whereas joining a Highland regt was not. Englishmen in Irish regts was not so common because of the Irish Sea and the nature of the work in Ireland but it did happen nevertheless.

Julian,

Don’t forget that prior to the establishment of the regimental depot at Brecon, it was at Warley, so some twenty-five miles as the crow flies from Coggeshall.

JY

Hi Julian 

Battalion maybe.

I did say in my post above, people's movements go both ways.
On Jones VC I disagree, in my opinion he was expressing exactly what you refer to, that he saw himself, not as English, but being a member of the English Army, just as we refer to the British army today.
On Welshness , you only have to look at the Merthyr boys letters in the newspapers of the day and other articles that express patriotism to see where their affiliations lay.

To a Welshman, your interpretation of the numbers and the way they are achieved, can be seen as a manipulation of the facts to imply a larger English presence. It is clear to see. 
With respect, you produce really detailed works for which I admire, but all this is open to interpretation on what evidence is available, who are we to say where a persons nationality lay, and by what measure, as I mentioned above

Also, as you know, the depot was established in 1873, and the regiment recruited from around Wales and its borders, six years prior to the war, it also recruited from the South Wales Borderers militia a few years prior to the war, hence its name change to just that in 1881.

This will be debated forever and a day and we will be no nearer to the truth. We all agree that they were all very brave men, and as you say, it was a British victory.

John
Of course! I'd overlooked that. That's perfectly possible.
Eddie
Battalion certainly. A 'Welsh' influx can only really be recognized in the 2nd Bn. The 1st Bn. had been abroad too long to be seriously affected.
"who are we to say where a persons nationality lay, and by what measure":
Well exactly! But if we have to gauge nationality surely isn't place of birth the best yardstick, in the absence of other information and to provide uniformity of information? Is there a better gauge that can uniformly be applied? I can't think of one. If I had, I would have used it. If you can, and I agree with it, then I'll happily amend the next edition.