Charlie Harford

Hello. Mr Payne.
Harford was know as the Beetle collector, because he colleted various specimens. Do you know what happen to his collection? I have on many occasions tried to locate this through various websites with no joy. I was thinking maybe it remained in the family and not on display to the public.

hi Chard1879.
I think some of his collection is possibly in the Talana Museum in Dundee Sth Africa , I may be wrong but I have read
there were other bits and pieces donated to other museums , one possibly in India ! . Hopefully David knows their
whereabouts .
cheers 90th.

Hi Folks

Charlie Harford donated masses of items to the Durban Museum and he was still sending bits up until 3 months before he died. The item that he sent in December 1936 was the boot that was lost when the camp was taken at Isandlwana.

The museum at Durban presented him with a scroll as a thank you for everything he had done and presented to them.

I have not been to the Durban Museum as I have been told the various items are no longer on display or for that matter still there.

I know that he donated some items to the British Museum that he collected whilst in India. I have been to the Natural History Museum store and seen some of the exhibits that he donated - the exhibits are not filed by donor but are filed by species - it makes the search quite interesting. The image of one of his insects, which is so rare and the specimen is in such good condition that the Natural History Museum sometimes use it on the Home Page of their website.

When I work out how to upload images I have masses of images - including the ammo box that Johann refers to.

I do not know at present of any donations to Indian Museums but that does not mean to say that he did not.

I am at present working on volume 2 on Charlie and that will be concentrating on his bug hunting activities and as I research and read some more of the material I have then I will let you have some more information.

Hope this helps.

David

hi David.
Looking forward to whatever you may post on this wonderful subject , I dont have your book but seems I should .
Cant wait for the ammo box photos , I have been looking to purchase a box but havent found one . I know some
make them from scratch but I dont happen to know who they are . . There was one sold on ebay uk a
couple of years ago and foolishly I didnt bid for it .
cheers 90th.

This is an original ammo box and definetly not for sale!! Just to make your mouths drool !!

Hopefully David can give us some further details with regards to the reason for this visit.

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Adrian and myself with Emmanuel and the Rev Umbatha’s wife.

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Picture outside of the church after the presentations.

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The three of us went to a wire making place and we are discussing the colour schemes to find out if there are any stories in the designs.
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Various bowls.

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Adrian and I out for a walk towards the M and C Grave at Fugitives.

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entombe flood family grass.

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Ian. Knight. Ammunition Box.

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The outside dining area at the Harford Library – Fugitives Drift lodge


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Adrian Emma and myself called in at a local school to make another donation to them.
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Another picture from the school.

A dance demonstration at the Village supported by Adrian and myself at Rorke’s Drift.
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The above Photo’s supplied by David Payne.

David. Great Photo's. I did not know there was a school at RD. And Welcome to the forum. Those kids certainly look a happy bunch.

sas1

Agreed with sas1. Great photo's. Ian. Knight. Ammunition Box. Can we have some more information on the back ground behind this particular ammo box. Please!

Looking forward to more photo's on this trip. What is the opinion of the School Kids on the Zulu War. Are they aware of what took place a Rorkes Drift.

And was Ken Gillings involved.

Before I leave. (What are those bowel made of) I wouldn’t mind having one of those.

Anyway back to by Gatling Gun Project.

Great Photo's as already said. David what were the presentations about?

Photo 2 Picture outside of the church after the presentations.

hi all.
Thanks to David for sharing the great photos , well done pete for posting them .
cheers 90th.

Hi David! Good work with the photos! Well I shall tell the story of the ammo box! It was found in Umbellinis caves on the Tafelberg mountain which can be seen in the rigthand top corner of the photograph, It is held by Ian Knight and Mark Filter. Mark is the present owner of the farm on which the caves are located. The box was discovered by his grandfather Christian Filter, probably in the 1920's and had been stacked away somewhere in a shed and was recently found by Mark when clearing the shed!! It is a well documented fact that Umbelini retired towards these caves after the massacre at Entombe. We also know that some of the wagons contained ammunition and were looted. So here we have an original dating back to the 12 March 1879! Mark's grandfather, Christian was a grandson of The Pastor Filter of Lüneburg and Heinrich Jnr would have been his uncle.

Hi Impi

This year the awards were presented to prominent local zulus who had gone beyond their remit to help the local community.

The recipients of these awards are determined by the Anglo Zulu War Historical Society in conjunction with Prince Buthelezi.

These awards have been discussed for several years with Prince Buthelezi and it was when Adrian and I met Prince Buthelezi at David Rattray's Memorial Service at Southwark Cathedral that it was decided that the time had come to start the presentation of the awards.

Included in the first presentations were posthumous wards for David Rattray and Stanley Baker. The presentation was very well attended in the officers mess at the RLC by emminent people from all around the world.

David

Hi Sas1

There are three schools that we go to in the vicinity - yes they do know there history.

Do not ne fooled by the location of the schools - the standard of education is just as good as it is here. I have seen their exercise books and watched the teachers at work.

The school children are always smiling and waving to us as we drive around. They are also immaculalely turned out.

David

Hi John

The bowls are made of wire. Each weaver is given the same quantity of the different colours of wire and the design is down to the weavers. This is one of the reasons we went to the place as we are trying to uncover the stories behind patterns and colours.

David

Well whatever you doing out there seems to be working. johann thanks for bringing us up-to-date with the story of the ammo box.

hi Johann.
Love the ammo box history , would love the box even more :lol!: :lol!: . I just salivated on the keyboard
Great history and a story worth sharing and knowing .
cheers 90th.

Hi Johann,
Can you tell me what the lid of the ammunition box is made out of? e.g. Metal, wood.

Great Pictures, what I wouldnt give for that box! :lol!:

thanks joe

Unfortunately the lid of this particular box is missing, but from the construction it can be assumed that it would have had a wooden lid that would slide in a groove and then be tightened with a screw. The inside would have been lined with a copper or similar foil to make it more weather resistant

Thanks Johann,
Does anyone know about how many cartridges a box would hold, just an estimate?

thanks joe

In LOck and Quantrill's book Zulu Victory there are some nice close up shots of ammo box page 128 and on page 322-325 they discuss the ammo controversy. They say that a box contained 600 rounds and had a tin foil lining!

Thanks again Johann,
What you cant you use tin foil for? :lol!:

Thanks for the info

Joe

Could this ammo box have been taken from Isandlwana? By the Zulu's.

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johann. Are there any markings on the box held by Ian Knight.

Tin foil. If I remember correctly in a scene from Zulu dawn. Two soldiers were breaking open an ammunition box, one using his bayonet to remove the tin covering. It would be interesting to know just how thick the foil was and how it was sealed.

hi John .
In regard to the ' Tin Foil ' lining the ammo box , I am not 100% sure but I would liken it to opening a tin of Sardines ,
I know there was a handle which was pulled back to expose the cartridges packed in their brown paper wrappers .
cheers 90th.

Yes there are markings stencilled into the wood. Some dates that I can not remember, but I know that Ian and his crew took carefull note of them. Why think of Isandlwana with Entombe on the doorstep?

hi Johann.
I'm with you , the box was more likely to have come from the Ntombe River debacle .
cheers 90th.

Mark. Has sent some photo's of the ammunition box that was found in the cave. Scroll Down.

Mark. The marking is not an A. Its the War Department marking.

From Mark.
"
I have just joined this forum. I am farming near the Entombe Battlefield. I joined Ian Knight's tour group at the Entombe battlefield a few weeks ago. I showed my Ammo box to the group and was amazed at the interest generated by the box. Johann Engelbrecht mentioned that photos of the box were posted on your forum."

Question. "Doe's anyone know what wood this would have been and how this wood would have been treated. I am amazed at how good the wood has been preserved."


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Stencelling on the wood - "RAL V 1878" Do you know what the RAC means, I have also seen it on a Rifle action I found in one of the caves?

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The RAL again on the brass strips reinforcing the box.

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Tin sealing on the opening and inside. Also note hole at top which must have been where the one screw would have been.

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Ink stamp on the box, not very visible but looks like "79 lbs GROSS"
Photo's By Mark Filter.

Hi Mark. Welcome to the forum. (Nice Photo's) Is this the same ammo box that has been post in this thread above.

Hi Mark.
Welcome to the forum , and giving us a classic first up . Many on here would love that box .
I can imagine it would sell for plenty on ebay :) . From what I remember reading the boxes were made from Mahogany or Teak
and did weigh in at a little under 80 lbs . Thanks for sharing the photos and thanks pete for posting them

cheers 90th.

Hi Mark! Good to have you on the forum! Excellent photos!!