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 Norman Lister Black. NNC

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:01 am

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Norman Lister Black born 1857 first Military appointment was as Sub Lieutenant of 33rd Lancashire Rifle Volunteer Corps on 12 May 1875 and by 1876 had been
promoted Lieutenant. At some point in 1877 he left for South Africa and obtained a position in the Colonial Engineer’s Offices. 7th December 1878 Norman was appointed Lieutenant in Colonel Durnford’s 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment NNC, specifically Captain Nourse’s ‘D’ Company. Colonel Durnford, who’s brainchild the NNC was, quickly appointed the best recruits to his own Battalion. Many men who had had previous Military Service or Son’s of local farmers and gentry who spoke Zulu were what he was after and the Natives themselves were from tribes Durnford personally had worked with before and knew their worth.

On 22nd Jan 1879 Colonel Durnford and his Natal Mounted Contingent of Natives,along with the Rocket Battery under Major Russell R.A and two Companies of 1st
NNC under Captain’s Stafford (’E’ Company) and Nourse. Joined Pullien’s force at Isandhlwana and at once the troops of the Natal Mounted Contingent were sent out to
reconnoitre. Durnford took two troops and the Rocket Battery along with him and Captain Nourse’s Company of NNC as protection for the Battery . Captain Staffords
Company had been ordered back along the path they had come to hurry up the baggage.

After going several miles from the camp it was found that the Mounted troops had way out paced the Rocket Battery and NNC and the sound of volley firing could be
heard from the direction the other Mounted Troops had gone. Russell had also heard the sound of gun fire and had changed direction he was going towards this sound in
the hope of catching the enemy but due to the uneven terrain the Company and Battery became somewhat disorganised. Soon after this a large formation of Zulu’s
were sighted at very close proximity and the order to prepare for action was given. Apparently only one rocket was fired before the battery was overwhelmed and Russell
was killed. Captain Nourse and men from his Company made a stand before either being killed or retreating. Captain Nourse was picked up by Durnfords Mounted troops on their own retreat on the camp along with a few survivors of his Company. It is not yet known if Lt Black was with him, only the perish at the camp or during the retreat down ‘fugitives trail’ or if he was killed during the initial stand.

Account of Captain W.H. Stafford, Natal Mercury, 22nd January, 1929:

"After placing Lieutenant Andrews in charge of a fresh picket, the rest of the evening was spent over a game of cards. The popular games in those days were "Twenty five"
and "all Four". A chap, by name Lieutenant Black, who had not been long out in this Country was the looser [sic] and I remember that officer staking his farm in Zululand
against his opponent's prospective piece of ground. I jokingly told him that the only plot of ground he would ever get in Zululand [was] one measuring seven foot by four
feet. There is many a true word said in jest and, sad to relate, the poor fellow fell from a Zulu Assegai about thirteen hours later at the Massacre of Isandhlwana."
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black   Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:24 am

Hi all .
Thought some would be interested.

http://www.jagermedals.com/South%20Africa%20Campaigns%20from%201799/jw145.html

cheers 90th.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:00 pm

"Lieutenant Norman David Black of the 1st Battalion 1st Regiment of the Natal Native Contingent, is confirmed as being one of the 600 Officers and Men of the Regiment present at the Battle of Isandhlwana. An English Officer, his family lived in Lymm in Cheshire, and his name is commemorated on a family Grave Stone in Lymm Churchyard."
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Phill



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:39 pm

Hi All,
BLACK, Norman David, (Lieutenant) N.N.C.
Born in 1858, second son of the late James Black (1825-1877) of Lymm, Cheshire, England. Appointed Sub Lieutenant in the 33rd Lancashir Volunteer Corps, 12 May 1875, promoted to Lieutenant 1876. Certain sources give the Corps as the 2nd Manchester Volunteers. Immigrated to Natal in 1877 taking a position with the Colonial Engineers Office. Appointed Lieutenant 1st Battalion/1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent. "D" Company. Killed in action at the battle of Isandlwana, 22 January 1879. Listed on the Medal Roll as serving in the re-organised 1st Battalion. Medal for South Africa 1879 with clasp.

Regards Phill.
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Fri May 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Been searching on D Company, 1st Battalion, 1st regiment movements and engagements and came across this:
http://www.wellingtonauctions.com/November2016AuctionList.pdf
Lot 48 is a "renamed" medal to Norman Lister Black
Haven't heard of Wellingtons Auctions before but there were quite a few nice medals for sale.
Regards,
Chas
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sat May 27, 2017 8:33 am

When researching Skottowe I came across mention of Black. He and Skottowe had an agreement that if one was killed the other would take his possesions. Skottowe commented that Black was seen leaving the camp and died either on the trail of in the water.
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Mon May 29, 2017 10:13 pm

Frank,
Thanks for posting your response. So, is it the case that the officers in D Company 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment NNC were Captain Nourse and Lieutenants Black and Skottowe? The reason I ask is that I have come across forums stating that the lieutenants were "Norman D. Black and Joseph Lister". It seems that it may be the case that Norman Lister Black's name has been split into two surnames.
Very interesting that Black and Skottowe had an agreement before the battle - was this common practice? Almost like gambling!
Thanks for the information, Frank - much appreciated.
Chas
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Mon May 29, 2017 10:17 pm

Frank,
The picture at the top of this thread actually states that the Lieutenants were Black and Lister, posted by Littlehand.
Chas
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black NNC    Tue May 30, 2017 4:39 am

Hi Chas
Regarding your query I can tell you the following is from David Jackson's ' Hill Of The Sphinx ' I've set it out as per the book.
State Of The Troops Present At The Battle Of Isandlwana
1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent ( detachment )
1st Battalion , Companies '' D '' and '' E '' .
Captains C. Nourse ( D ) , W.H.Stafford ( E ) , D.M.Smythe ( ? )
Lieutenants W. Erskine ( E ) N.D.Black , J. Lister
Cheers 90th Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black NNC    Tue May 30, 2017 4:55 am

I read the first post from Littlehand seems he made an error , it isn't Norman Lister Black , it should be N.D. ( Norman David ) Black , Lister is a another person .. Joe Lister . Before the war Joe Lister was a Storekeeper of Umduduta , Lower Umkomas he was KIA Isandlwana , Norman David Black KIA Isandlwana , Aged 22 , had lived in Sth Africa for 2 years prior to the war . Formerly a member of the 2nd Manchester Volunteers . Prior to the war he held an appointment in the Colonial Engineers Offices .
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Tue May 30, 2017 7:32 am

Jackson missed out Skottowe. It was incidently Skottowe that got Erskine to safety at Helpmakaar.
Black was E company, Skottowe D Company, both attached to the RB.
Skottowe breaks down the officer compliment as: I x Captain, 2 x Lieutenants, 4 x Non Coms.

I would agree with 90th, its ND Black

Letter Skottowe to his brother Willie from Fort Cherry Feb 8th 1879.

Cheer
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black NNC    Tue May 30, 2017 1:27 pm

Hi Frank
Seems Julian has missed Skottowe as well as David Jackson ? , I've had a QUICK look through ' England's Sons ' and ' For God , Queen & Colony ' as well as the Forsyth Medal Roll , no mention of a chap by the name of Skottowe ??? , strange to be missing from everything , maybe JW can shed some light ? . Shocked
90th Shocked
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Tue May 30, 2017 1:54 pm

It will be in Julians update of 'Englands Sons', far as I know theres maybe three or people know about him.
Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Tue May 30, 2017 1:57 pm

Sorry should have added, very recent discovery. Wink
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black NNC    Tue May 30, 2017 2:04 pm

Thanks Frank , that certainly helps to explain him missing from everything else . You need to study mo
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Tue May 30, 2017 2:04 pm

Check your e mail in 5 minutes.
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black NNC    Tue May 30, 2017 2:06 pm

Salute
90th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed May 31, 2017 12:04 pm

90th
Have a chat with forum member Chas. He has Skottowe's medal.
Heres a link to the discussion.
http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t9385-unrecorded-survivor-of-isandlwana-and-rorke-s-drift-defender

Cheers Mate
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90th

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PostSubject: Norman Lister Black NNC    Wed May 31, 2017 12:48 pm

Cheers Frank Salute , Now that's a nice medal to have ! .
90th Shocked Shocked
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed May 31, 2017 1:52 pm

Its one I would be happy to own ! In particular because his story is soon to be told. He has really been the forgotten man.
The rest I will leave to Julian
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed May 31, 2017 2:30 pm

There are two references to Scottowe in the Sutton Diary's.
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed May 31, 2017 7:21 pm

Thanks Frank and 90th.
Forgive my late response, I am flitting to Wales and back this week. No internet or phone signal there and the kids have to actually talk to each other.

I'm going to have to get copies of some of these books you guys have mentioned - I only have The Silver Wreath by Norman Holmes and some general books on Victorian campaigns. I used to collect Victorian campaign medals until the kids came along - i.e stopped abruptly 16 years ago. Still read around Victorian military history, though. I've got a few SA medals - a few to the RN, all HMS Active though only two have bars.

Frank - impressive how you have dug out original sources. Was there any particular reason that you were looking for Skottowe or did you come across his name by chance and then pick up the lead?

xhosa2000, Are the "Sutton diarys" published?

Chas
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed May 31, 2017 8:06 pm

Hi Chas.. privately published by Pearl Scotney 2010.
a quick look on abe book's say's there is one copy
available for £25.00 plus shipping from RSA. i have
the image's ready to post.. when pb decides to work.

Andy, thank you.. i'm looking seriously to your
alternative. xhosa

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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Wed May 31, 2017 8:27 pm

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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:49 pm

Dear Xhosa2000,
Thanks very much for the information and for directing me to Abe's books. I have just ordered their available copy. Expected delivery date is late August, so something to look forward to.
Looks like an interesting book.
Chas
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:23 pm

No problem Chas.. The mail from South Africa is usually reliable.
you have purchased a ' niche ' and uncommon item, enjoy!.
xhosa2000. Les.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:11 am

I just tried to buy that ! Sod it ! Very Happy Very Happy
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:53 am

Xhosa
Do the references on the pages in the index refer to our Skottowe?  He and his brother stayed in SA and there was quite a large family of descendants who were involved in a number of conflicts.  Interestingly Skottowe was related to French aristocracy.
Skottowe is in the next edition of England's Sons with all the various references to him.
Littlehand
Black's forenames were definitely Norman David.
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:47 pm

Afraid not Julian, just two references to a Skottowe along with
other people including Mr and Mrs Moodie and Pretorius, he
attended political meetings at Frere and Estcourt, the time is
the mid eighteen eighties.. looking forward to ES's and will
be very interested in seeing the fruits of your and Frank's
endeavour's.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:42 pm

xhosa
I rather think that those references might be to his brother who was more active in that regard.
Admin
Might the subject of this thread be altered to Norman David Black, as the existing one might mislead readers?
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:11 pm


xhosa
I rather think that those references might be to his brother who was more active in that regard.


Thank's Julian.. i just wanted to contribute.. the Sutton Diaries are interesting, lots of reaction
post Isandhlwana including the construction of the Howick Laager, which cost £77.7/6. George
Sutton sending the account to a Major Boycott.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:04 am

Skottowe's brother WAS living in Natal at that time whereas he himself came out to SA only in late 1878.
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:59 pm

Hi All,
I've found this free ebook (Google) which is an official record of Natal Taxes, Duties and Fees for the Colony of Natal, 1875. Here is the link:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Mb81AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=skottowe&f=false


This ebook is searchable and names the Skottowe brothers on five pages.
EB Skottowe was a ferryman on the Upper Drift, Little Tugela River - appointed by the Lieutenant Governor of the Colony in September 1871 and on an annual salary of £24 per annum paid from the Colonial Treasury.
His brother - WR Skottowe was the postmaster at Curry's, also appointed by the Lieutenant Governor but in January 1875 and paid £10 per annum from the Colonial Treasury.
This ebook might be of interest to members of this forum in tracking down the occupations of a number of NNC officers and NCOs.
Chas
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:17 am

Chas
That's interesting but I think Edmund must have come back to the UK for a while and came out again later.
The ferrymen doc is one I've not seen before. Does it contain any info at all re Daniels, the ferryman at Rorke's Drift? An initial even?
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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:17 pm

Julian
I looked through that the last time the Daniels issue cropped up, got quite excited when I saw a Daniel at the Sundays River Ferry then looked further and found out it was Daniel Munger

Cheers
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:59 pm

Hi Julian and Frank,
I've just been reading the posts on Daniels.
I searched for Daniels in the document that I posted the link for - nothing at all (tried some deliberate mis-spellings as well). Of course, this was 1875 so it doesn't rule anything out.
I have found similar documents - "Departmental records" Colony of Natal - for 1878 here's the link below with the search for Daniels - one entry a "preacher". unfortunately doesn't give location and just a clip of the page.:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_esc=y&id=28A1AQAAMAAJ&dq=Natal+skottowe&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Daniels

I searched for Skottowe in this 1878 copy of "Departmental records" and only his brother came up so, looks like you're right, Julian, he must have left his post as ferryman after 1875 and then returned in time to enlist in the NNC.
Chas
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Chas



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PostSubject: Re: Norman Lister Black. NNC   Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:03 pm

Hi Again - just found an even better link to Natal Colony "Departmental Records"
This covers 1877, 78 and 79.
EB Skottowe is not in any of them but his brother is
The only Daniels I can find is a "Native Preacher"


https://books.google.co.uk/books?q=editions:OCLC48648976&lr=&id=Mb81AQAAMAAJ&sa=N&start=20

Chas
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