Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?

I see a new film is getting released in the cinema called Immortals, filmed in exactly the same way as 300, allowing the necessary scale - regarding terrain, buildings and numbers of warriors involved, as well as looking fantastic ! This style of filming technique isn't to everyone's taste, but personally, I could live with it, if it led to the making of Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift films. I say, let's get back to the time of the historical epics, albeit filmed in a very different way.

I agree that there should be new versions of both Zulu Dawn and Zulu made, and this time get them more historically accrurate.

But I am not too sure about the filming of them in this type of format (if that's the correct name for it). From what I saw of 300, it looked far too much computerised, you couldn't tell if you were looking at real people or computer generated images, and it looked too dark and brown, the colours didn't look right.

I am all for the remaking of Zulu Dawn (which would correct the inaccuracies that appear in it), and especially keen on the remaking of the film Zulu, and this time they could correct the deliberate mistakes (or should that be "artistic licence") made in the earlier version, and give the world the real name of the 24th regiment that fought at RD.

So yes, remake both films, but I am not too sure of the style of filming that is used in 300, it looks far too much computerised and sort of too brown looking and 'uncolourised' for my taste.

Regards.

Mr. C., thanks for replying. Modern times demand modern methods, and competition is extreme nowadays, so films have to be vastly different than in the days of both Zulu films. Trying to get the portrayal of an historical event into the mainstream cinemas, has to match appeal-wise, the incredibly long phase of sci-fi and zombie horror films, that seem to have been the most regular types shown for years. Films need to have much stronger main characters and action scenes that keep your attention from beginning to end. The sort of brown colouring that stems from the movies Immortals and 300, I imagine is to give a more older, sepia (is that the right word?) feel to the films, instead of blinding bright colours and blue skies, as seen in the old technicolor days. I'd love to see a version of Isandhlwana using this film technique, with the main characters much more dominant on the screen, with hugely memorable lines and fight choreography.

Zulu- Blu-Ray.

The Special Features are:

Feature commentary with film Historian Sheldon Hall and Zulu's Second Unit Director Robert Porter

The Music of Zulu.

Zulu: Remembering an Epic.

The Making of Zulu: 'Role of Honour'.

The Making of Zulu: ...And Snappeth The Spear in Sunder.

Theatrical Trailer.

Teaser Trailer.

Impi, thanks for the details, but I think your post was meant for the other topic.

Hi Colin

I can see what you mean mate, but it's the 'brown/sepia' look with the lack of colour, and the computer generated people, they just don't look right to me somehow. OK, yes, it's what some folk like these days (mainly the younger generations), but I would rather see proper colours and real people, and also the real colours of the sky and landscape. Maybe it's because I was brought up when most films were black and white, then along came the magic of colour and WOW! what a difference that made, yes, it went through some teething troubles, but once they were sorted out it was fine, so I am not too keen on this computerised, almost colourless, brown/sepia way of filming, somehow (to me anyway), it just doesn't look right. But I do agree that both Zulu Dawn and Zulu should be remade, and remade more accurately than the earlier versions (especially Zulu).

Regards

Martin.

Hi Mr.M.Cooper .
I'm with you , I'm not big on the sepia movie look , it does look to computer generated for mine . Give me the
outdoors with sun , real actors etc etc .
cheers 90th.

Hi 90th

Thanks for backing me up on this.

I think that films are a lot better done in the 'normal way', rather than the brown/sepia look with people that look like they are computer generated, as in 300, but I suppose that it's up to individual taste, or as we used to say 'each to his own'.

I still enjoy the good old black and white films, there were some classics done in B&W, but the sepia look just doesn't appear right somehow.

Regards

Martin.

Martin/90th, yes I fully agree in what you say about the older films, but it's the new film-making techniques that are taking over now, especially when they need a larger scale, as in buildings and numbers of extras that would be required for battle-scenes, and the actual building of huge sets would take a great deal of the film's budget. It just might not be possible now, other than the creation of them by CGI. As I say, they are following the same mood and grittiness, being used in many films nowadays in various action movies, including 'stand-out' characters, which if using the more older methods, may just not appeal to the modern audiences. The scale of Isandhlwana itself in numbers of people, as well as creating an identical battlefield, could only be by CGI. Of course, these new Zulu War films are most unlikely to happen, which is unfortunate, as then they could be compared and discussed on the forum to the 1964 and 1979 movies. Ah, well....

Hi Colin

Yes, I can understand what you mean with the larger scale, all the extras, buildings, battle scenes, and all the buildings, etc, being done by CGI, but do they really have to film it in this brown/sepia and almost colourless format, and with computer generated people that all seem to look like 'he man', could they not use more 'normal' looking people with ordinary looking bodies, and with proper colours rather than the colourless sepia look? Unfortunately I think you may be right about the 64 and 79 films being remade, but if they were, it would most likely 'bust the myth' of the 64 film, and not before time in my opinion.

Yes, it would be a good to compare the films and discuss them on the forum, there could even be a poll as to which versions were the best in the members opinions. But like you say, Ah, well......

Regards

Martin.

As a bit of a side hobby connected to the possibility of Zulu War films, I've been collecting various books, on what could be added to or used as reference, of how to create a new film version of Isandhlwana. Nothing in writing, just ideas at present. I wish somebody could take this notion further by developing a detailed paper (thesis?) on how it could be constructed, inclusive of footnotes and further reading. This might motivate someone to 'take the bull by the horns' (do you like the Zulu connection? :) ) enough to draft a screenplay. It'd be a start anyway, ideas-wise, I think.

Obtained 300 on blu-ray today, to see if it enhances the film more than on my other dvd. Also, acquired the Immortals soundtrack cd, to hear if it has a similar type of music as the former.

It would be amazing to have Zulu re-filmed with real actors and the correct Regiment but would cost millions to make. And the soldiers portrayed as the original men were, ie beards, mustaches, correct height etc not 6ft 6inch. And definitely not in sepia.

And who would be in line to become director/screenwriter of such an immense task? Spielberg? or perhaps Zwick who made
Glory in 1989 also a historical movie but I gather also not 100% correct. Would they be williing to untertake something like this. Perhaps there are numerous other directors with experience in battle scenes. Perhaps Ridley Scott (Blackhawk down) who is English I believe. But he is ancient as well.
He popped into the world (in 1937) when Colour Sgt. Bourne was still around.

Hi Stefaan
I hadn't heard from you regarding the email I sent you about Private Waters ... I assume you received it ?
90th

90th wrote:

Hi Stefaan
I hadn't heard from you regarding the email I sent you about Private Waters ... I assume you received it ?
90th

Hello 90th, Yes I received it thank you very much. Sorry for the belated answer.

All good Stefaan , was just hoping you received it .
90th

I don't suppose these films (zulu dawn, zulu) will ever be remade, however, if they are, let's just hope that they are made more factual, and that the films will show that the regiment was an English County titled regiment, ie; the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and not the name of a regiment that did not exist at the time of the Anglo-Zulu War. And also that the remade films will show that the vast majority of the men of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment were from England, and that the regimental tune was called 'The Warwickshire Lad', then, with a bit of luck, this might help to put an end to the anti English Myth that was created by the almost fictional 1964 film.

That said, I was rewatching ZD on a wet afternoon, last week and there is a surprising amount of accurate detail in it - some of which is unnecessary for the films narrative.

Such as Harfords hobby of invertebrate collecting, Noggs leading the crossing into Zululand, "The orders of the great Queen" exchange (albeit with a different character), Milnes Naval telescope, the background to AWDs charater and Miss Colenso etc, to name but a few.

There are obviously one or two howlers but it's a film not a documentary - perhaps "info-taiment" and I'm not sayin its 100% accurate but unlike its more famous predecessor - it can be watched and the viewer is not mislead, in a major way.

One final interesting scene, is when Lord C returns to the camp - there is a British soldier, tied to a frame, obviously taken prisoners and killed....artistic licence perhaps but with current research probably correct.

Sime
I think its an event that did take place but taken a bit out of context.  Smth Dorrien built a frame to stretch leather strips into reims. A zulu was stretched out on it at some point and SD was blamed and had to deny all knowledge. So again a touch of history re imagined for the dramatic effect.
Martin, never knew that! 
Cheers

Hi Frank

I'm not saying that a soldier was tied in that actual way but I believe that 'British' were captured and killed (presumably tied/restrained).....I'm sure there was a a contemporary sketch showing some restrained bodies,
I will have to look in my Zulu War book.. ....unless of course the Zulus followed the 'rules and conventions of war'

What was it that GBH said about 'savage war'

Perhaps the producers thought that a drummer on a meat hook would be a bit over the top.....a bullet from Birmingham had already done for one.

Cheers

Sime

It was a sketch by Trooper Nelson of the NMP.

Or perhaps Sime the producers didn't put drummer boys on meat hooks because they didn't want to perpetuate another myth of the AZW.
Kate

I thought my drummer boy quote would flush someone out...

At what point does something become a myth? Maybe when it's proven to be false.....I'm not sure what the accepted status was of drummer boys and meathooks was in the late 1970s - unheard of, 'fact' or myth?

The producers did cut a number of scenes to obtain a lower age rating for the movie - especially the fighting in the camp - something about blood splattering on tents, if I recall correct.....

One part of book that thankfully was not used on the film was Major Russell had a medieval sword that he used....quite what Mr Enfield was on, I don't know....unless of course........

Damn fell for that one hook, line and sinker Sime.

Though if we believe the films the Zulus wouldn't have used a Hook as we are told by a certain sergeant that they were no good..
Kate

Yep, another myth perpetuated by Zulu......"you're no good, Hook"....

I used to go to wargames shows/conventions putting display and participation games - Rorkes Drift, the Alamo etc (not in the same game.....) and its amazing (and vexing) how many people stick to the ideas from movies - and will they be budged....even IJK couldn't shift them

It is a particularly 'bee in my bonnet' (metaphorical bonnet, for sadly, I do not own a bonnet), that the closest majority of people come to history, are films....and whilst the film should be entertaining (imagine the 'real' Zulu - no class struggle between Bromhead & Chard, teetotal Hook, no Ulla Jacobsen and most of it gunfire at night), I always think that the producers owe it to try and get the basics correct.....

Simon,

We all know that there were NO DRUMMER BOYS at iSandlwana, because all the Drummers were adult soldiers. However the following were ranked as BOYS in the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment: Daniel Gordon; James Gurney; Thomas Harrington; Joseph McEwan & Robert Richards.

Add to their number Boy Green, the servant of Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd, Army Medical Department.

From memory - as I cannot access my files at present - one of the Natal Carbineers casualties was a teenage.

Add to those a number African teenage voorloopers.

Who alive today can prove or disprove the circumstances of their deaths? I would venture no-one. Unlike some I don’t simply dismiss this as a myth.

Again I quote from A Zulu Boy’s Recollections of the Zulu War published in Natalia December 1978. “At daylight we came back again, we saw some boys who had died in a tree, underneath it. They were dressed in black clothes…” What tree, or could a wooden frame work have been misinterpreted as a tree?

JY

Whenever I watch the charge of the Light Brigade films I always think the 1930s one has the closest line-up/formation to the real thing (but the story is bosh) and the 1960s one has an incorrect line-up (and a reasonable but exaggerated story).

Hi John

Yes perhaps using 'drummer boy' was ill advised - I should have known better, having read various posts/threads on this forum.....it just sort of slipped out.

I to believe that there were 'goings on' immediately after the battle - age or gender was not a shield in Zulu conflict.

Hi Julian

As I recall the Flynn version has a very strange timeline putting the Indian Mutiny before the Crimea if I remember right.

I did once read that Nana Sahib (or someone?) visited the Crimea (sightseeing) but I don't know if this is true.

The 60s version has the Charge of the Heavies, which sadly ended up on the cuttingroom floor (there are some stills on the Internet)

No truth in the visit to the Crimea I'm afraid but I didn't know about the Heavies footage.

Wow! Heavy!

gardner1879 wrote:

Or perhaps Sime the producers didn't put drummer boys on meat hooks because they didn't want to perpetuate another myth of the AZW.
Kate

Another Mythstake.

I never knew you had a lispth Frank......

Subject: Drummer Boys.

There are numerous 'eye- witness' accounts of drummer boys' demise.
A soldier of the 24th, W. Sweeney, himself a drummer, wrote home to his parents after
the battle, his letter being published in a local paper recounting the dead---quote.

" Two drummers, Anderson and Holmes, and five little boys of the band about fourteen
years of age, were butchered most awfully indeed. One little chap named M'Every (sic)
they hung up by the chin to a hook."

Peter Quantrill

Boys not drummer boys. There are 3 eye-witness survivors' testimonies, 20 from LC's Reconnaissance including several from the the last to leave the field (E coy), and 13 from the burial parties which record the fact.

This is all described in great detail on another thread but just to put things into context a basic re cap:-

1/ Survivors who escaped.
Although they escaped at various times towards the end of the battle these are the only people who could possibly have witnessed anything actually happening (and I appreciate some left earlier than others)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          250-450

Number who witnessed and made a record of acts of torture against boys                                                                                                                                         3             

2/ Number of men in Lord Chelmsford's coloumn who passed through the camp, who once again could possibly have witnessed something.                                2473
Number of witnesses who left a record of "drummer boys on meat hooks"                                                                                                                                          20

As I've said before the burial parties cannot be used as witness evidence due to the lapse in time bewteen the battle and their arrival.
Anything could have been done to the corpses during that time. But here are the approximate numbers anyway
3/ Burial Parties                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        200
Number of witnesses                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 9

If we take point two above wouldn't you think that if an act as dreadful as "dummer boys hung up on meat hooks" (their words) had occurred that a few more men would have mentioned it.
The basic numbers speak for themselves.
Kate

I do wish I had been more careful about a 'throw away line' in the post about ZD

I feel that the two parties in this debate will never be reconciled unless further evidence comes to light to prove the events. Obviously it is very unlikely that future evidence will come to light to disprove it.

Sime

SRB1965 wrote:

I never knew you had a lispth Frank......

Two, top and bottom. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

A couple of hundred years ago we did a forced march from Aden (Yemen) across to the Trucial Oman states to counter a potential attack from UAR. Over 40 units in total, we were extreme left flank and arrived with two very large legs of meat from an Adax. Not one of the other cars saw it have its accident (ran into a few .30 Browning rounds). Would that be classed as a mathematical improbability Kate?
Cheers

Strange that, I recall another tale of when you or brother ran over someone's goat and you had to check if it was dead, by eating it.

Sort of a Dingo killed a goat....David Attenborough narrate that one....

We got hungry quickly.

gardner1879 wrote:

This is all described in great detail on another thread but just to put things into context a basic re cap:-

1/ Survivors who escaped.
Although they escaped at various times towards the end of the battle these are the only people who could possibly have witnessed anything actually happening (and I appreciate some left earlier than others)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          250-450

Number who witnessed and made a record of acts of torture against boys                                                                                                                                         3             

2/ Number of men in Lord Chelmsford's coloumn who passed through the camp, who once again could possibly have witnessed something.                                2473
Number of witnesses who left a record of "drummer boys on meat hooks"                                                                                                                                          20

As I've said before the burial parties cannot be used as witness evidence due to the lapse in time bewteen the battle and their arrival.
Anything could have been done to the corpses during that time. But here are the approximate numbers anyway
3/ Burial Parties                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        200
Number of witnesses                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 9

If we take point two above wouldn't you think that if an act as dreadful as "dummer boys hung up on meat hooks" (their words) had occurred that a few more men would have mentioned it.
The basic numbers speak for themselves.
Kate

Oh my word… drummer boys/boys #insertshakesheademoji


100% Kate… add to this 2 simple questions/points:

1) why on earth would the Zulu do that?

Through culture or indeed tradition (which let’s face it the Zulu are pretty keen on) there’s absolutely nothing that would make them want to hang a boy up by his chin.

Young boys (udibi) had been on the battlefield since the first days of the zulu empire, on occasion they’d be killed and dealt with in the same manner of disembowelling as any one else. Why would a warrior part from that tradition when it centres around him as the killer (for want of a better phrase) not being troubled by the dead man’s spirit.

If the Zulus wanted to torture someone they knew how… a sharp bit of ironwood in the anus knowing the victim would live in agony for days before an eventual painful death.

2) please re-cap on basic physics and basic anatomy…

What happens if you hook a jaw and suspend a humans weight on it? Simple… the jaw is ripped away from the skull and the body falls to the ground. There is relatively little strength in any species jaw to brace when open (by design the force is required to bite/chew) therefore it works in the opposite direction. Go speak to any butcher… if you want to hang a
Body with a hook… between the ribs in the chest muscles (that’s the only place that will suspend the weight).

So why the drummer boys story… well the 24th had been annihilated, shattered, routed with nowhere to run, setting a new British military low of losing their colours for a second occasion… the survivors need to explain how that happened, how awful the enemy they faced was. Those who camped on the field with Chelmsford in the aftermath in the dark with the stench of blood, urine and excrement than mass death brings will I suspect not slept a wink, terrified, listening to the various tales of horror.

It takes one person to elaborate, be mistaken or just plain lie and others will grab to that story. It’s a wonderfully convenient tale when alls said and done and sadly at the time it’s not a detail which people
Would need to clarify or be pressed on.

Hi Gavin
That is  a really interesting point about the anatomy of the jaw and body.
I had not considered it before.
If its okay with you I have cut and pasted it on main thread about this topic
Thank you
Kate

gardner1879 wrote:

Hi Gavin
That is  a really interesting point about the anatomy of the jaw and body.
I had not considered it before.
If its okay with you I have cut and pasted it on main thread about this topic
Thank you
Kate

Please do Kate,

It’s actually a very regular injury pre hospital thanks to young lads and their love of climbing spiked railings… only ever one result, a catastrophic dual dislocation and the spike tearing out of one side of the mouth.

Ribs, armpits etc and the body stays put…

We both know that an argument is pointless so I shall not be drawn (we have been through the holes in the argument before). For whatever reasons you can manipulate statistics to suggest whatever you want. You can choose to ignore or argue against the evidence. But you can't remove it.

From a 'basic physics and basic anatomy' point of view it is perfectly possible to hang a body from a butcher's hook under the ear. Without wishing to be gruesome, prisoners at Buchenwald were placed on butcher's hooks. How is explained on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Julian Whybra wrote:

We both know that an argument is pointless so I shall not be drawn (we have been through the holes in the argument before).  For whatever reasons you can manipulate statistics to suggest whatever you want.  You can choose to ignore or argue against the evidence.  But you can't remove it.

From a 'basic physics and basic anatomy' point of view it is perfectly possible to hang a body from a butcher's hook under the ear.  Without wishing to be gruesome, prisoners at Buchenwald were placed on butcher's hooks.  How is explained on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Julian, my reply was to Kate not yourself just for the record.

I was quite happy in a scenario just talking to the other members of the forum as you suggested previously, I don’t have issue with standing behind my post as it is both relevant and factual. As a HCPC myself and being sat in a room with a paediatric consultant wife (aka drummer boy anatomy specialist) I will maintain my point but importantly also the others concerning Zulu culture which I will freely admit come from the considered works of Knight, Laband etc

In terms of your post which I presume is to rubbish the reality that a meathook passed through the chin of a human can’t hold their weight, I’ve had very brief read through, a few salient points:

1) the drummer boy claim is both graphic and precise (almost deliberately so #goodforthepapers)… strung up with a meat hook under his chin (so under the jaw, through the mouth, tongue etc (let’s face it a highly illogical place when common sense says if you’re determined to have a graphic display bang it trough the chest and up and under the sternum - commonplace in medieval torture btw)

2) “prisoners lost 40% of their body weight”… so if hooked up we are talking for want of a better phrase, someone akin to a severe later stage anorexia patient… wearing pyjammas, also already dead so bowel, bladder etc evacuated.

3) “the prisoners where garrotted and hung up on meat hooks 8’ off the floor” (see a mock hanging on the right of the photo). So basically they used the hooks to attach a noose to as shown in the photograph… look at the hooks, they are tight to the ceiling 8’ in the air. People weren’t lifted and impaled on them. They were hung (as in rope noose) from them.

In short, it’s a very poor piece of evidence to support the claim. It describes an entirely different mechanism and one conducted on bodies at the extreme of weight loss.

If you want a more simple thought process however, every leading academic and historian surrounding the AZW has with all the evidence we all have access to and x decades of experience decided to rubbished the poor drummer boy claim… why have they done that.

Regards
Gavin

P.S. I am also eager to avoid wasting my time on an argument over such a ridiculous subject so please just refrain from commenting or indeed attempting to belittle my post which is made with good knowledge and good intent for consumption by those who I enjoy constructive discussion and mutual learning with. Thank you in advance.

Quote by Julian Whybra:-
"We both know that an argument is pointless so I shall not be drawn (we have been through the holes in the argument before). For whatever reasons you can manipulate statistics to suggest whatever you want. You can choose to ignore or argue against the evidence. But you can't remove it."

Well not sure where that has come from Julian. I never mentioned you once in the posts above.
I was just sitting in the pub having a chat with Sime about the AZW films and made a comment about the myth of "Drummer boys"
No one asked you to join in.

You were the one who turned up at our table and started quoting statistics.
I merely responded to your post using your own statistics which apparently looking at other contributors to the thread are, when I use them, of a dubious nature.
Then Gavin turned up and with his expert medical knowledge raised some interesting points which made all of us put down our drinks and think "hmmm I'd never thought of that."
Now if you want to join in the discussion then pull up a chair, you are more than welcome but if not then go and buy a packet of nuts or play on the pin ball machine. Its your choice.
Now then Sime its your round I believe
Kate

ps and if you think I am talking nonsense check out this comment here:-
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability   durnford - Durnford's Level of Culpability - Page 3 EmptyMon Oct 23, 2023 6:01 pm

Kate
250, 2473, 200 are not my statistics.  you provided them and they are irrelevant to
the argument.

GCameron
If one is going to set out an argument, then one has to give the text more than a "brief read through".
I suggest this is done.  The post can then be edited.