Priavte Griffiths VC

Private Griffiths was killed at Isandlwana with G Company.

Was his VC lost at Isandlwana or recovered??



Cheers
DB14

Private William Griffiths, won his VC in 1867 at Little Andaman Island.

Good question DB14. Would he have had his VC with or would it have been left in England.

Looking for DB14's Man and came across this by Major Martin Everett.
Don't Know when he originally wrote this. But I wonder if it was ever establish if Thomas Lane did fight at Isandlwana.

"Private Thomas Lane VC initially served with the 67th (South Hampshire) Regiment, later 2nd Battalion The Hampshire regiment. He was born in May 1836 in Cork, Ireland. Little is know of his early life but at some stage he joined the 67th Regiment, in which he served in the Crimea. For these services he received the Crimean Medal with clasps for Alma, Inkerman and Sebastopol. Following a further period of service he went to China.
     He received his Victoria Cross for distinguished gallantry during the 1860 campaign against the Chinese in the Gulf of Pechili. Together with Lieutenant Nathaniel Burslem of the 67th Regiment, he succeeded in swimming the ditches surrounding the North Taku Fort and during the assault, and before the entrance to the fort had been breached, they enlarged an opening in the wall through which they entered. In so doing, both were severely wounded. They were among the first British troops established on the walls of the fort. The garrison was captured and over 2,000 prisoners were taken. During the assault on the fort, 17 British soldiers were killed and 22 officers and 161 men were wounded.
     Lane’s VC was eventually presented to him on 28 February 1863.
     Lane left the 67th Regiment and went to South Africa where he later served as a sergeant with the Natal Horse during the Anglo Zulu War. He received the South Africa Campaign Medal with the 1879 clasp. Rumours persist that Lane was court martialled for a bigamous marriage and that his VC was withdrawn, however, his records reveal that he was court-martialled for desertion from a unit known as Landry’s Horse at Ladysmith. He was sentenced to four months hard labour on 27 July 1881 as he had also stolen a horse and weapons. Lane was ordered to return his VC to London for erasure but, curiously, no record exists of the medal actually being returned. His VC pension was stopped with effect from 7 April 1881. His South Africa Campaign Medal also appears to have been forfeited.
      For reasons unknown to the author, Lane applied for a replacement VC, and his application appears to have been granted – which resulted in Lane being awarded two VCs although there appears to be no official record of the second issue. The original VC is owned by the Royal Hampshire Regiment but in 1909, twenty years after Lane’s death, a Lieutenant in the Hampshire Regiment purchased a VC with Lane’s name engraved on it for £20 in a South African pawn shop; this medal, presumably the replacement, has been authenticated and is now privately owned.
     Lane died on 13 April 1889 at the Caernarvon Hospital, Kimberley, South Africa. He was buried the following day at Gladstone Cemetery, Kimberley in the RC Section, Row 4 Grave 23. A new headstone was erected on his grave in 1991.
     There have been various suggestions that Lane fought at Isandlwana; this has not been verified. If this is the case, then there would have been two VC holders at Isandlwana, the other being Private Griffiths 1/24th who was killed at Isandlwana.
     Lane’s VC forfeiture was but one of a total of eight recorded. Since 1920 medal forfeitures were discontinued."

Source: By Major Martin Everett

But a VC can not be withdrawn




Cheers
DB14

If you were found guilty of a criminal offence it could. There is a topic on here somewhere covering this.

Ths is what the king said

The King feels so strongly that, no matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear his VC on the scaffold.[



Cheers
DB14

Hi DB14.
As Martin's post suggests '' The Forfeiture of V.C.' S was discontinued from 1920 , whereas before that they were taken from the
recipients .
cheers 90th.



ps. I've posted my thoughts on the Griffith VC somewhere on the Forum . I doubt very much he would have taken the medal
on the Sth African Campaign , it was more than likely left with Relatives or Friends or possibly even the Regt Hdqtrs in the UK.

DB14,

Eight men forfeited their Victoria Crosses, prior to King George V changing the Warrant.

They were: Midshipman Edward St. John DANIEL; Sgt. James McGUIRE; Pte. Valentine BAMBRICK; Farrier Michael MURPHY; Pte. Thomas LANE; Pte. Frederick CORBETT; Gunner James COLLIS & Pte. George RAVENHILL.

Ravenhill forfeited his Victoria Cross a mere twelve years prior to the change of the Warrant, and died a pauper in 1921 without his medal being restored.

kwaJimu1879

Hi all

Thanks for the infomation



Is there anything on Griffiths VC, my dad said medals would hace been carried with the person.



Cheers
DB14

I have heard that medals were always worn, even into battle by soldiers in "the old days."
I don't know the exact date, but somewhere around the end of the 19th and start of the 20thC, an order of wear for medals started to evolve. A little later, medal ribbons were worn instead of the actual medals; this was established at around the same time as the outbreak of the Great War.
It is almost certainly correct that Griffiths' VC was lost on the battlefield. Given that it hasn't shown up in the last 133 years or so like Lane's 2 have, it will most likely remain lost forever.

Hi Tasker .
Is that fact that the ' Griffith VC '' hasnt been seen since 1879 ??. If it is indeed fact , then he may well have had it with him .
cheers 90th.

90th - i was inferring from DB14s original question that it was a fact.
However, a quick search of the internet has revealed that it is in fact held at the SWB museum in Brecon.
No note about it being a replacement, so there is the answer - it is not lost.
He would have been unlikely to have had it on his chest during the battle. It would have been looted for sure, either in the immediate aftermath or in the months following.
If it had remained on his tunic until the 17th Lancers arrived in july that year, it would clearly have identified his body, as his name would have been engraved on the back. He would then almost certainly have been buried individually nearby and his grave would be known. Or would it?
Would he not have been given this honour, as a VC holder?
Another quick search reveals he is buried in an "unmarked grave" or "mass grave" at iSandlwana.
If the VCwas indeed recovered and returned to his next of kin, there would probably be records, stories of who found him and notes of this in existance. We would also need to ask the museum at Brecon how they came by the medal as they would have the info on how they obtained it, possibly donated by the family of Griffiths perhaps.
DB14 - over to you!

PS - another interesting footnote: "VC not awarded for bravery in action against the enemy, but for bravery at sea in saving life in storm off Andaman Islands." (SWB museum)

As I have said many times previously, VC's of later centuries were much harder earned!

Hi Tasker.
Thanks for the post , I was aware it was for his bravery not against an enemy but of mother Nature , something to do with
surf boats or driving them through rough seas or something similar . The medal being in the museum reiterates what I thought
and posted earlier about the VC being left with relatives back in the UK . I doubt very much that anything of any value was taken
on campaign when it wasnt needed to be done so ; ie , Previous Medals etc etc .
cheers 90th.

90th wrote:

Hi Tasker.
Thanks for the post , I was aware it was for his bravery not against an enemy but of mother Nature , something to do with
surf boats or driving them through rough seas or something similar . The medal being in the museum reiterates what I thought
and posted earlier about the VC being left with relatives back in the UK . I doubt very much that anything of any value was taken
on campaign when it wasnt needed to be done so ; ie , Previous Medals etc etc .
cheers 90th.

You might well be right about medals not being taken on active service and into battle, I am not sure either way tbh, but soldiers and sailors were certainly required to wear them permanently when in uniform, "in the old days."
Hence similar old Victorian medals to cavalrymen tend to have a lot more contact wear than those to infantrymen. Perhaps the battlefield was an exception!

Private WILLIAM GRIFFITHS, 7th May 1867, buried in unmarked mass grave, Isandlwana, Natal, South Africa. VC location, South Wales Borderers Museum, Brecon, Wales.

Perhaps Bill can confirm.

Yes, Griffiths' VC is held by the Museum.

Bill

Hi Bill

Thanks for confirming

Do you know how it came to be there, was it a family member??





Cheers
DB14

It was donated to the Museum in 1961, but not directly by the family.

Bill

bill cainan wrote:

It was donated to the Museum in 1961, but not directly by the family.

Bill

Can't Lord Ashcroft be convinced to donate Robert Jones' VC to the musuem, where it belongs?
It would be lovely and it would be right for the full set to be at Brecon.

"William Griffiths (1841-1879) was born sometime in 1841 in Roscommon, County Roscommon, Ireland and enlisted with the 24th Regiment of Foot (later South Wales Borderers) and was posted to India early in his career.



Shortly before the 7th May 1867, at the island of Little Andaman, in the Bay of Bengal, a ship called the “Assam Valley” had anchored, and some of the crew went ashore. Shortly afterwards, news came that the crew had been set upon and murdered by some of the natives, as none of them had returned. In order to ascertain the crew’s fate, a second steamer was sent from Rangoon and landed near the island on the 7th. Some of their crew was attacked by the natives and with a huge storm raging, a rescue mission was organised to try and reach them. With the soldiers in peril on shore, Dr Campbell Mellis Douglas and four fellow members of the 24th including William Griffiths, manned a gig and attempted to reach them.



They very nearly succeeded in their endeavours, but, the boat beginning to fill rapidly, they were forced to retire. They then made a second attempt and were successful in reaching the shore, taking off five men. On these being placed safely on board, the doctor and his four brave men turned once more to the rescue of the rest of the soldiers, and by their strenuous efforts the entire party was eventually taken off the island.



Griffiths alongside his four comrades, was gazetted for the VC on 17th December 1867, and was invested with his medal in Rangoon on 16th April 1868 by Major-General A Faunce, the GOC Pegu. Following his VC investiture, Griffiths continued to serve in the 24th Regiment of Foot, and was eventually posted to fight in the Zulu Wars in South Africa. Griffiths was sadly killed during the Battle of Isandlhwana on 22nd January 1879 and was buried where he fell in a mass grave, which is now only marked by a pile of white stones known as a cairn. His medal is held by the South Wales Borderers Museum, Brecon.



LOCATION OF MEDAL: SOUTH WALES BORDERERS MUSEUM, BRECON, WALES.

BURIAL PLACE: ISANDLWANA BATTLEFIELD, NATAL, SOUTH AFRICA. (UNMARKED"

Dear All,

1. The Times dated 18 June 1924 reported - Three VCs were sold at Glendinings (now today part of Bonhams) on 17 June 1924 - when the collections of the late Mr Duncan of Penarth, came up for disposal. The first of these, which realised £52, was that awarded to Private William Griffiths, 2nd Battalion South Wales Borderers (24th Foot) for gallantry at the Andaman Islands in 1867.

The trustees of the 2nd Battalion made the purchase in 1924. Griffiths' VC then formed part of the SWB Museum collection when it was created in 1934. The whereabouts of his campaign medal is unknown.

2. It was likely that Griffiths was not wearing the VC on his tunic during the battle when he was killed at Isandlwana - but kept secure in his personal pack. In those days soldiers only wore their medals on a 'show' or formal parade.

3. Technically, the VC is classed as a 'decoration' (it is referred as such in the Royal Warrant for the VC) - after all it is senior to all other British awards - so calling it a medal is doing a disservice to the unique standing of this award.