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Zulu.Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Younghusbands Retreat

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Younghusband

Younghusband

Posts : 57
Join date : 2010-08-17
Location : Southampton

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 10, 2014 11:43 am

Yes, good suggestion - hadn't considered that and would make sense - it was clear that the majority of soldiers felt that their best chance lay in staying and fighting together - Younghusband's remaining few would have seen - more than most in their elevated position - that there was no escape down the hill, through the nek towards fugitives drift as the whole area must have been swarming with Zulu.

What goes through a man's mind at this point God only knows!!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 10, 2014 12:42 pm

Younghusband wrote:


What goes through a man's mind at this point God only knows!!

A Knobkerrie?
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Guest
Guest



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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 10, 2014 1:16 pm

with provenance!  Very Happy 
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6pdr

6pdr

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Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 10, 2014 1:28 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Younghusband wrote:


What goes through a man's mind at this point God only knows!!

A Knobkerrie?

 Joker   Salute 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 7:40 am

The start of this thread was my thoughts on Younghusbands retreat. When I was writing it I looked through all the Zulu statements made and something about the Mehlokazulu report from the the 27th September 1879 seemed odd.
A question was put to him: Where there any soldiers in the camp then.
They were at this time in the camp having come back from the front, all but two companies, which went onto the hill and never returned-they were every one of them killed. They were firing on the two wings of the Zulu army while the body of the army was pushing on...............
This statement has always been seen as referring to Mostyn and Cavaye. I would however contend that it could refer rather to Younghusband and Shepstone taking post on the slopes of iSandlwana, the Hill.
In a separate question.
Were the bayonets of the two companies who were killed fixed?
Yes: The men formed back to back. Some Zulus threw assegais at them others shot at them...........

This second question doesn't refer to the main defenders on the saddle, Mehlokazulu refers to them in a prievious answer so 'the two companies on the hill' has to refer to either two companies climbing Malhabamkosi ( Blacks Kopie ) or iSandlwana. There is no evidence to suggest that any troops climbed the koppie, in fact the left horn charged over and around it.

My contention would be therefore that this statement does confirm the presence of a large number of men on iSandlwana. And would answer the long held confusion over the 'missing companies' debate. It could also shed some light on why the two horns never closed the gap at the rear of the mountain allowing the escape of the fugitives

Just some thoughts.
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barry

barry

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PostSubject: The missing company   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 8:23 am

Hi Frank,
Indeed, sounds both feasible and plausible. Could very well be the explanation for the "missing company".
However one should not put too much into the location of the cairns as to markers where the men actually fell, as human remains were collected up into hessian bags some months post the battle and taken to central collection points. These places were marked with cairns, now white painted.

regards

barry
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 8:34 am

Morning Barry
Couldn't agree more but knowing exactly how economical with energy squaddies the world over are I cant see them carrying heavy bags uphill, more probably downhill. So the cairns on the lower and upper slopes could very possibly be the central areas of collecting. More area indicators than specific locations I would say.

Cheers
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 10:58 am

90th View of Younghusbands Retreat from his camera.

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Looking back from Main Y'husband Cairn.

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From Y'huband's Cairn to Conical Hill & Ithusi Heights

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From Y'huband's to the Colonial Cemetery

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From Y'huband's to Black's Kopie

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Y'husband retreated toward the camera

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Y'husband Retreat path which is toward the camera

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Path of Y'husband retreat toward the camera , Inyoni Ridge background

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Y'husband area

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Y'husband area

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from Y'husband to the ' Cave '

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Down the path from Y'husbands

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Down the path from Y'husbands , right of previous pic

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Looking back to Y'husbands Cairns

Camera change coming up
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 11:19 am

Camera 2

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Younghusband's position

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Younghusband's position

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Younghusband's position

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From Younghusbands

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Younghusband Positional Cairn

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Younghusband positional cairn

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Younghusband's to the Cave

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Younghusband Position

agree
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 1:14 pm

Gary. Excellent!
Graves. Thanks very much.

Steve
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's Retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Thanks for the compliment Steve Very Happy

Graves
Thanks mate for posting the pics , as always very much appreciated Salute Salute

Cheers 90th agree
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 3:12 pm

Well done Gary so glad to see you didn't spend all your time in the bar. Very Happy Great photos
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's Retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 11:19 pm

Thanks Frank ' Hicup ' LOL , well we won something albeit the ODI series , after the Ashes debacle I'll take anything ! Joker Joker Joker Joker
90th
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's Retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 11:23 pm

I'll send the pics from my Fugitive Trail walks in 2014 , and from May of this year along to '' Graves '' when I find some time . I doubt I'll do it again , but , never say never ! scratch scratch
90th agree
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2015 4:22 pm

I appreciate that there have been many arguments made both for and against the possibility of Younghusband making a charge through a heavily bouldered area but my own thoughts are that Younghusband probably didn't have time to think about what was under his feet. I believe he would have been more concerned about what was ahead and to the sides of him, from the reports that we have, he was surrounded, he was being attacked on all sides. My interpretation is that he did run possibly waving his sword above his head (its was his way of saying, get back, stay away from me) he probably lashed out at anything that he perceived as a threat. To the onlooker this would have appeared as a charge but to my mind it was nothing more complicated or desperate than a man  fighting/running for his life. It makes sense to me that he would try to head back to the main body of the 24th 'safety in numbers'. In a nutshell, Younghusband led a charge of sorts but not in the sense that we would understand, it was more likely to be an everyman for himself situation. That would at least explain the shaking of the hands, a ' I will see you chaps down there', kind of thing.

nje umbono wami
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Ray63

Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2015 11:50 pm

Essex say's the men didn't have time to fix bayonets?

Is there any reason why Bayonets weren't fixed when it became obvious, that the camp was going to be attacked. " If the last order heard was "Fix bayonets, and died like British soldiers do" then there must have been a reason why they waited until the end was near before doing so.
I take it a MH Rifle is able to fire, with a bayonet fixed ?

Was Younghusband and his men forced into a wagon park?
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2015 12:30 pm

Ray63

I don't think that it was immediately obvious that the camp was going to be over-run. In Zulu Rising, Ian knight states,  'Brickhill observed that the battle 'was about to roll up and engulf the tents.' he then goes onto say, ' Essex saw the 24th officers struggling to keep their men under control; the men became unsteady. A few fixed bayonettes.'- Lieutenant Stafford of the 1st NNC heard one officer calling on his men to 'Fix Bayonettes'.'


The Martini Henry can be fired with a bayonet attached but I'm not sure if the additional weight has an effect on accuracy.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2015 5:57 pm

The Zulus had a great respect for the bayonet, there are a couple of references to it being used.
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