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 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal

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littlehand

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PostSubject: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:13 pm

Anyone know which company this was, or who the men were.
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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:42 am

LH.

Is this the incident?

"according to Safford, one shell burst over the head of Roberts's amaNgwane troop as it decended; Lt Roberts of Pinetown,, had managed to get his men into a cattle kraal on the ledge of the ridge. I heard subsequently that this officer and his men had been shelled by our artillery, and that Roberts had met his death as a result of this blunder".
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:56 am

Martin, I did look at that one, and it possibly coud be. A while ago someone ( Springbok) I think mentioned remains being found, which were inturned in St Vincent's.??

The chances are, I have got this all wrong.

But thanks anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:41 am

LH. Didn't this has something to do with the remains found a few years ago. in an around the same area. or the missing road repair unit.
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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:43 pm

Just had a look through Ian Knight's 'Friendly fire incidents on the Anglo-Zulu war battlefields', and the only incident mentioned near or in a Kraal is the one involving Roberts.

I do seem to recall that there were some bones found later and inturned in St Vincent's, but not sure if they were British soldiers or zulu warriors.

Some of my AZW books have been packed away by 'Mrs Shifter', so I will have to have a look for them and see if I can find anything about it, but in the meantime, maybe some other member might know about this.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:12 pm

Pretty sure this refers to the 20 men of H company under Wolfe that were most likely a rear gaurd for the rest
of the company, its been discussed on the forum before.



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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:28 pm

Was Roberts in the 24th.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:32 pm

NNH officer possibly killed on the Spur when E and F Coys retreated off it.



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:55 pm

DB Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:48 pm

This why I asked the question..

SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR—THE FIELD OF ISANDHLWANA.
HC Deb 26 February 1880 vol 250
MR. A. M'ARTHUR
Asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether his attention has been called to a letter published in the "Natal Witness" of January 4th, in which the writer, Mr. W. E. Bale, states that on recently visiting the battle field of Isandhlwana he was horrified to find, for two miles, the dead bodies of numbers of the English force either lying unburied, or so imperfectly buried that their remains were exposed to view; whether his attention has also been called to another letter from the same writer, published in the "Natal Colonist" of January 16th, in which he states that the Chief Hlubi men have found, at a kraal near Isandhlwana the remains of a number of soldiers of the 24th regiment; and, if these reports should on inquiry prove to be correct, whether he will take immediate steps to secure for the unburied dead, wherever they may be found, decent interment?

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH
I have not seen the reports which the hon. Member has quoted; but I have written by to-day's mail to Natal to make inquiry on the subject. If they are correct, I do not doubt that steps have already been taken for the decent interment of any bodies left unburied. But I 1442 cannot think that they are correct; for in a despatch received early last July, and published at that time, the hon. Member will find an account of the steps that had been taken for the interment of those who fell at Isandhlwana. The bodies of the soldiers of the 24th Regiment were left, at the request, I think, of the Colonel of the regiment, to be buried by their comrades, a party of whom were, I believe, subsequently engaged for a fortnight in this work. I have heard from a gentleman connected with the War Office, who went out to Natal last summer on an official mission, that he visited Isandhlwana about the end of October, and rode all over the field of battle with the express object of seeing whether the dead were properly buried, as General Clifford had asked him to do so. He saw no unburied bodies. As the grass was then short, he must have seen them if there were any; and, in his opinion, the interment had been properly carried out.
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PostSubject: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a Kraal   Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:36 pm

Hi All .
DB is correct , this has been mentioned before and I dont think its Roberts or his men as they were NNC up on the Ridge from memeory . Check the Alfred Boast Burial reports which are on the forum , I think they may show the Kraal or mention it in his report . Try the search box .
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 am

LH

I'm pretty sure that report is wrong, according to Jackson, Hlubi had found 2 companies of the 24th in a kraal
on the Spur.

We know however that this is imposible as E and F coys retreated off the Spur with hardly a loss - lots of winesses to back this up, Essex ect.



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:23 am

DB. Please show how you came to the conclusion that Jacksons is right and the report is wrong
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:36 pm

Quote :
Natal Colonist" of January 16th, in which he states that the Chief Hlubi men have found, at a kraal near Isandhlwana the remains of a number of soldiers of the 24th regiment; and, if these reports should on inquiry prove to be correct, whether he will take immediate steps to secure for the unburied dead, wherever they may be found, decent interment

Chief Hlubi, may very well have found some remains. As stated above. But being as this was published on the 16th Jan, I doubt very much there was any connection with Isandlwana. Which was fought 6 days after the report.

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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:45 pm

Chard this was debated in the commons HC Deb 26 February 1880. So we can assume that, it was the 16th Jan 1880.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:27 pm

Not getting involved Fair Point LH.

The truth is no one can know the exact movements of all of the 24th that day, there many have been many breakaway groups, this particular one may have been trying to reach the kraal, possibly to afford or so they thought, some sort of defence. I guessing this is the same Kraal that was hit with artillery, so guessing again, we're they thinking that the Kraal had been cleared of enermy.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:24 pm

Totally agree Chard, we can never know the movements of every member of the 24th Regiments. Essex gives a good account, but he could have been all over the battlefield. The accounts given of the Battle will only ever be really true, in the minds of those that escaped. We will never know if those accounts are true, the gaps are filled in for us. Wether we choose to beleive those who have filled in these gaps is down to personal preference. Everything about Isandlwana is based on one massive coverup, from the top to the Bottom, from those that were there and escaped.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:37 pm

impi wrote:
DB. Please show how you came to the conclusion that Jacksons is right and the report is wrong

Impi

Read my post, i did. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:02 pm

There is the remains of several stone Kraal which do appear on some of the contemporary sketches and lie off the main current day recognised "fugitives trail" , these do remain but are buried in the undergrowth and are hard to find.

Interestingly three mass graves are adjacent to both structures, which are stone based. Myself and Mike Snook inspected them in detail last year, dates cannot be property ascertained, but we both commented on the composition of the walls. which were very large boulders, not the usual Zulu shale construction and do point to an earlier type of contruction. Google earth

28 deg 21' 37.69s 30 deg 38' 36.17e

the smaller kraal is 15 meters to the right. note the three lines of ciarns.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:30 pm

That's Neil. If not a company, who remnants of what company do you think made it to this location.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:50 pm

CSG
No evidence can be gleaned, Anstey was most likely, as he passed by this point, but however I offer only my own interpretation of the potential lines of retreat over the Nek, the alignment of the graves points to two or three large long burial pits with multiple small cairns on top, rather than one large ciarn, unlike the others which are just dotted here and there.

The strata here is interesting and worthy of note, the kraal and its immediate area is sited on a solid rock base, however, ten meters away, where the graves are is rich sub soil, and erosion around the area proves this to be as much as a meter or so deep, so it "appeared" to be the only place a spade would go in, and naturally the place that bodies could be interned. The fact these graves are where they are, does suggest a grouping, in quantity of troops, close by in life and in death.

Myself and Mike took a close look at the kraal, it was interesting that he freely admitted of all the time he'd spent there he'd not come across the structures, (I only found it as I detoured as I nearly bumped bang into an aggressive slithery friend causing me to retreat faster than a Italian tank with nine reverse gears) they appeared to be for livestock, but as we both agreed, a veritable fortification of solid rock and an anchor point for rearguard. The question is though as to their age, but as I mentioned they were made from large rocks and built directly on the hard base.

So there's three possible conclusions as to their use

1) a mini redoubt in the final retreat over to the Manzimyama
2) A base for the collection and burial teams of large numbers of bodies from the surrounding area
3) A post AZW structure sited close to the grave site.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:37 pm

Neil Aspinshaw wrote:
CSG
No evidence can be gleaned, Anstey was most likely, as he passed by this point, but however I offer only my own interpretation of the potential lines of retreat over the Nek, the alignment of the graves points to two or three large long burial pits with multiple small cairns on top, rather than one large ciarn, unlike the others which are just dotted here and there.

The strata here is interesting and worthy of note, the kraal and its immediate area is sited on a solid rock base, however, ten meters away, where the graves are is rich sub soil, and erosion around the area proves this to be as much as a meter or so deep, so it "appeared" to be the only place a spade would go in, and naturally the place that bodies could be interned. The fact these graves are where they are, does suggest a grouping, in quantity of troops, close by in life and in death.

Myself and Mike took a close look at the kraal, it was interesting that he freely admitted of all the time he'd spent there he'd not come across the structures, (I only found it as I detoured as I nearly bumped bang into an aggressive slithery friend causing me to retreat faster than a Italian tank with nine reverse gears) they appeared to be for livestock, but as we both agreed, a veritable fortification of solid rock and an anchor point for rearguard. The question is though as to their age, but as I mentioned they were made from large rocks and built directly on the hard base.

So there's three possible conclusions as to their use

1) a mini redoubt in the final retreat over to the Manzimyama
2) A base for the collection and burial teams of large numbers of bodies from the surrounding area
3) A post AZW structure sited close to the grave site.

Neil

I do feel I have to stand up for my fellow Italians. As a an expert n the arms and armament of the Zulu period - i assume you have not had much time to investigate the gear system of the Italian tank. If you had you would have found that not only does it have nine reverse gears (to aid in retreat) it also had the all important one forward gear!! After all you never know you may be attacked from behind Very Happy

As MrsD (who is a teacher) would say - I am not angry , just very disappointed Wink

Merry Christmas
Sergio
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PostSubject: Stone cairns   Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Hi Neil,

Most interesting.
However, did you check the identifty of the slithery fellow?.
Not an mFezi by any chance? ( Hemachatus haemechatus).

regards

barry
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:48 pm

The report states a Kraal near Isandlwana, how many are there near Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:20 pm

Ha ha Sergio, no offence meant, Barry, whilst I did not happen to enquire as to the identity of my slithery friend at the time in my normal friendly manner and pass idle conversation, I can honestly say it was Mr Hemachatus haemechatus who was acting rather unpleasantly , my hat is still up there, hovering above Isandlwana.

I had a similar "meeting " at the rear of isandlwana lodge walking up to the Telehane Ridge, this time I was reliably informed it was a African Black Snake, never the less it could of been polka dot, I was off...... the local kids went legging after it.. barmy?. I can still hear Colin Feilding laughing, now I now why he's always at the back!.

I am over 3rd March-9th if yourself and Springie are local, a quick half looking over the battlefield might be in order.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:40 pm

Neil. Never been to the Battlefield. Could this be the Kraal in-question.

Brickhill states.

The mounted white force now went down to their assistance and these together held the plains so determinedly that the Zulu lines actually swerved once, and sought to mass together under cover of a kraal. A well-placed shot from one of the field pieces caused considerable havoc and scattered them from there. A general forward movement was now made by the enemy from the kraal just named, right away from the northern nek.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:58 am

LH
Not that one, Brickhill is referring to those dotted on the plains in front of Isandlwana. These are on the fugitives trail approx 1km from the saddle.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:24 am

In the one mentioned by LH, is it not possible, that the artillery shells put pay to some of the 24th.
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PostSubject: Visit to Isandlwana.   Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:18 am


Hi Neil,

Ok, I am on. Dates look good.
I will pm you.

regards,

barry
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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:41 pm

LH.

Could this be what you are looking for?

The book 'Hill of the Sphinx' (Jackson), mentions that,

"Colour Sergeant Wolfe, of Wardell's company, was cut off with twenty men in the rocks above a kraal which he may have been holding with this detachment".

If you have the book, it's in Chapter Six, page 41.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:39 pm

Martin

I'm sure you have it right there, no other body of the 24th was posativly identified near a kraal other
than Wolfe's section.



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:20 pm

Hello Sam.

Thank you, I have searched for anything regarding troops killed at or near a kraal, so when I found the above in 'Hill of the Sphinx' I thought that might be what LH is trying to find.

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas Sam, and that 'Santa' will bring you plenty of AZW material. Merry Christmas

Salute
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barry

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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi All,

This incident begs a number of questions. They are, in terms of the best info available ;

1) how many men were there killed at the kraal with Sgt Wolfe ?
2) were they indeed killed by friendly fire from a 7pdr RML mountain gun.?
3) if so, this must have been quite early in the development of the battle, and if that is correct ;
4) why was this group of men some 1200 metres away from the main defence lines of the camp and at a
position bearing 241 deg from the car park and almost on the Fugitives Trail. All of which suggests this
was not he ridge which Lt Roberts NNC was on, but rather a mass burial place for those dead found on the
trail

regards

barry

PS ; the mind boggles at the alternative to a friendly fire incident here


Last edited by barry on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:37 pm

"'Hill of the Sphinx' who's the author, not heard of this one...
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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:39 pm

Hi Barry.

According to Jackson's HOTS, there were 20 men with Wolfe. Regarding FF, I don't think they were hit by FF, it seems that they were overwhelmed by zulus, so that would rule out 3. The line of thought is that they were supposed to have been a rear guard, but I don't know if that is fact or someones suggestion.

Salute
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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:40 pm

CTSG.

F.W.D. Jackson.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:42 pm

His he new on the circuit. Does anyone have this book.
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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:52 pm

CTSG.

He is one of the best on the subject. His book can be obtained at the museum at Brecon, PM Bill and he will give you the details. I think it's about £12 or £13. Great book, great read, and great value.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:01 pm

CTSG. You know perfectly well who Jackson is. Just another one of your silly games, that ends up taking the discussion of topic. Give it a rest for Christ sake!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:03 pm

littlehand wrote:
CTSG. You know perfectly well who Jackson is. Just another one of your silly games, that ends up taking the discussion of topic. Give it a rest for Christ sake!!!!

Salute

Jackson's work is the best, all the sources are easy to find and there is no speculation, just hard
fact and a great read.


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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:05 pm

DB, don't need that to follow, what I said comes from me, and that's it.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:21 pm

Hi LH.

Do you think that might be the men of the 24th that you are looking for? It does look like they were indeed killed near to a kraal, but I can't find anything other than what I first posted (Roberts), regarding any sort of friendly fire incedent.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:28 pm

It could be, but I'm trying to establish, if it is possible these chaps were killed by friendly fire! Looks like Barry is looking along the same lines. But I still don't think it will be easy to establish who they were, based on we will never know the exact movements of some indivuals, we're they a few straggles from various companies that had banded together?
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm

Yes, that is what I first looked at. But like I said, I did go through Ian Knight's write up about friendly fire incedents, and the only one I could find that stated a kraal was Roberts being shelled by FF. There must have been quite a lot of lead flying about, so it is not impossible that there were quite a few FF incedents, but you would think that a group of 20 men getting hit by FF would have been witnessed and spoken of after the battle, but did the witnesses survive to tell the tale? I will keep looking through the books I have, and if I come accross anything I will post it up for you.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:09 pm

But was we aware of this prior to LH posting. Remembering these remains we're found a year later.

Do we have an approx time when the Kraal was shelled by the Artilliery on the 22nd Jan 1879.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:05 pm

Only people surposed to be killed in a Kraal were Lt. Roberts of the NNH, no one of the 24th were ever reported to have
been killed by friendly fire at Isandlwana.



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:23 pm

So we thought?, but obvisouly it was reported, ie littlehand post that started this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:42 pm

Quote :
Posted by DB

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:59 pm
Some figures from Jackson.

From the upper part of the 1/24th camp to the road: Durnford, Wardle, Dyer, Scott, Bradstreet
Hitchcock, one officer of the 24th unrecognisable and 150 men of the 24th.

Slope of Isandlwana above the Artillery camp: Younghusband, two officers of the 24th unrecognisable and 60 men of the 24th.

Nek, on south side of road under Blacks Koppie: around 100 white bodies.

Among the rocks on the bastion, just above a Kraal full of Zulu dead : Colour-Sergeant Wolfe found surrounded by 20 men of the 24th,

This is the only mention I can find to do with members of the 24th and Kraal, and dead Zulu's no doubt from Artilliery fire. Does anyone know when Wolfe and company were buried.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:45 pm

I'm pretty sure september, thats when Mainwaring i think marked were they died, if anyone has Jackson's book
its covered in there.


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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:48 pm

Puzzling. These remains we're found months after. scratch
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