WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Rorke's Drift
Today at 2:54 pm by xhosa2000

» Farnborough Hill
Yesterday at 2:10 am by 90th

» Captain Walter Stafford NNC medals
Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:04 am by 90th

» Gerald French, liar or not?
Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 pm by Frank Allewell

» A bit more fun research!
Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:22 am by rusteze

» Trooper H. Boik (NMP) and Dartnell patrol Isandlwana, 22 January 1879
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:55 am by whizz-bang

» Norris-Newman
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:52 pm by Kenny

» Some fun research
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:47 am by Frank Allewell

» Isipezi Hill
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:19 pm by ALLENG

» Zulu shield question
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:03 am by SRB1965

» Buyer beware!..
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:47 pm by xhosa2000

» Colonel Farquhar Glennie
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:48 pm by SRB1965

» A number of SAGS for Sale at C Dixons
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:38 pm by xhosa2000

» Zulu Arts & Crafts Event.
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:50 pm by 24th foot

» Sir Henry Evelyn Wood VC, GCB, GCMG
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:37 pm by xhosa2000

Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards. killed at Hlobane
[Mac & Shad] Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards --killed at Hlobane (Mac and Shad) (Isandula Collection)
Rob Caskie at a Showcase Event 2014
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
90th
 
xhosa2000
 
Frank Allewell
 
rusteze
 
John Young
 
Tee
 
SRB1965
 
24th foot
 
ALLENG
 
Kenny
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Zulu spies

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Zulu spies   Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:50 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We know Zulus were hung and shot accused of being a spies. 
Was it just a case of those Zulus found near a British camp,were spies and shot! 

Or are there any records that show, Zulus being accused of spying being found guilty in the correct eviroment ( A millitary court of sorts) and then sentenced to death. Did the Zulu get a chance to defend themselves?
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Zulu Spies   Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:20 am

Hi Littlehand .
I'm happy to be corrected but I cant remember reading where there were any courts / trials etc etc . It was a case of your a spy and that's that ! .
90th.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Zulu Spies    Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 am

I forgot to add there is a book about Spies and Espionage during the AZW , Sorry, but I dont have it .
90th Salute 
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:42 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand .
I'm happy to be corrected but I cant remember reading where there were any courts / trials etc etc . It was a case of your a spy and that's that ! .
90th.
Yes, in his memoir Smith-Dorrien recounts how the gallows he originally had built at Rorke's Drift to stretch out reims (tack for the oxen) were used to hang three (if memory serves) Zulu who were accused of being spies. Although he doesn't make any specific accusation, he strongly implies it was unjustified vigilantism.
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:48 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand .
I'm happy to be corrected but I cant remember reading where there were any courts / trials etc etc . It was a case of your a spy and that's that ! .
90th.
Yes, in his memoir Smith-Dorrien recounts how the gallows he originally had built at Rorke's Drift to stretch out reims (tack for the oxen) were used to hang three (if memory serves) Zulu who were accused of being spies.  Although he doesn't make any specific accusation, he strongly implies it was unjustified vigilantism.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:50 pm

Hi, littlehand,90th,6pdr, page 19 MOF8HS.

" and there was my wagon some two hundred yards away, riddled
and looted; and there was the reim gallows i had erected the previous
morning. dead annimals and cattle everywhere-such scene of devast-
ation! to my young mind it appeared impossible that order could ever be
restored, but i set to work,and next day.whilst sitting in my wagon, i
saw two Zulus hanging on my gallows and was accused by the brigade
major Clery of having given the order. i was exonerated , however,when
it was found that it was a case of lynch law performed by incensed men,
who were bitter at the loss of their comrades, other incidents of the sort
occurred in the next few days before law and order was re-established.
cheers xhosa
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:27 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Hi, littlehand,90th,6pdr,   page 19 MOF8HS.

"...it was found that it was a case of lynch law performed by incensed men,
who were bitter at the loss of their comrades, other incidents of the sort
occurred in the next few days before law and order was re-established."
Even more strongly worded than I remembered...especially the last bit about it taking days to reestablish "law and order." I don't think there was a scintilla of official recognition of any of this...but I doubt that was all that unusual (see Breaker Morant.) I wonder if there was any link to the lurid accounts of how the British dead were stripped and mutilated that some reporters reported later or it was just a form of hysteria? One thing that strikes me...this doesn't quite fit with Mr. Snook's portrait of perfectly disciplined, red coated automatons he claims inhabited the battlefield.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:33 pm

"Judge, Jury, Executioner"




 I have been looking for the a particular incident, where some Zulus were put in the charge of a Sgt, who misunderstood what was said to him, and he hung them. Anyone recall reading this. Question 
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:42 am

"Judge, Jury, Executioner"

littlehand.who,expand please,
cheers xhosa
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: zulu spies    Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:17 am

Hi Littlehand .
Yes it certainly happened , it was the day after the battle of RD and it took place at RD. From memory it's on here somewhere , I'll try and find it again .
Cheers 90th .
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Zulu Spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:56 am

Littlehand I found the following in ' Rorke's Drift By Those Who Were There ' by Jones & Stevenson .
This appears to have been from Col Sgt Bourne talking to a ' Sunday Express Reporter ' 22nd Jan 1938 .
'' One zulu who was alive had been left for dead . Later in the day Lt Bromhead sent for me and said , very
urgently . '' Where's that man who was just here with a prisoner ? Find that man and bring him here '' .
I went round asking , '' Who's the man who's got a prisoner ? ''. They said . 'Ashton , of course '. Ashton was a lusty Irishman. I found Ashton. '' What have you done with your prisoner ? '' I said. He pointed to a tree from which the Zulu's body was hanging. '' I took him to Lt Bromhead '' , said the innocent Irishman . '' And he told me to get the hell out of here with him , and I did .''

Found this in Harford's Journal , it may be another zulu ????.

In front of the fort and some 600 or 700 yards down the slope of the hill , a scaffold had been put up by the Comm Dept on which the carcasses of the cattle were hung up previous to issue , and one morning Maj Black and I were sitting outside , warming ourselves in the sun and chatting , when we saw a most extraordinary looking object suspended on the scaffold , and wondered what on earth it could be . Presently , a Pvt of the 24th came up from that direction , and Black asked him what the thing was and he said that it was a Kaffir spy that had been hanged . '' Good Heaven's '' , said Black , '' By whose orders was he hung ?'' , '' Capt Harford , Sir '' . Was the reply , so we went down at once to look into the matter . The poor wretch , who was an old , wizened - up , grey headed native , had apparantly been dead for some hours , and must have been hung some time during the night , but by whom it was never discovered . Every possible enquiry was made , but not a soul knew anything about it and nothing was known of the native or where he could have come from .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo 


Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:49 am

Hiya 90th,well dug out mate,
i had forgotten about the
Harford account,
cheers xhosa
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: zulu spies    Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:48 pm

Hixhosa.
Salute 
cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:59 pm

90th wrote:
Found this in Harford's Journal , it may be another  zulu ????
I can't help thinking of the coincidence that Smith-Dorrien and Harford traveled to S. Africa not only on the same ship, but sharing the same cabin. Both of them then go on to mention a Zulu hanged after RD...and both say the lynching was (falsely) attributed to them. Is it possible that these two acquaintances (perhaps friends) shared the story and then both owned it? Obviously that needn't be true...but it's a pretty odd coincidence that the teller is accused of being the perpetrator in both instances...and we have little other corroboration. Just something to ponder...
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:00 pm

6pdr wrote:
90th wrote:
Found this in Harford's Journal , it may be another  zulu ????
I can't help thinking of the coincidence that Smith-Dorrien and Harford traveled to S. Africa not only on the same ship, but sharing the same cabin.  Both of them then go on to mention a Zulu hanged after RD...and both say the lynching was (falsely) attributed to them.  Is it possible that these two acquaintances (perhaps friends) shared the story and then both owned it?  Obviously that needn't be true...but it's a pretty odd coincidence that the teller is accused of being the perpetrator in both instances...and we have little other corroboration.  Just something to ponder...
Now that is a very good point!
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:08 pm

Interesting point, well found.
Salute 
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1283
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:20 pm

To add to the interest George Hamilton Browne alleges that he captured a spy whilst at Rorke's Drift.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Turn the pages and discover that the blame is again placed on an Irishman.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:06 pm

John Young wrote:
To add to the interest George Hamilton Browne alleges that he captured a spy whilst at Rorke's Drift.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Turn the pages and discover that the blame is again placed on an Irishman.

John Y.
Yes that is interesting because Maori uses it as almost as stock tale (with him at the center of course, like all of Browne's recollections.)

When I think of how long after the war Smith-Dorrien wrote his memoir...and all the doubt around the "my kingdom for a screwdriver" ammunition boxes and reversing the names of the quartermasters...well...it just makes me think...hmmmm.

I wish that Maori had said he and Harford and Smith-Dorrien shared a cabin on the way HOME from South Africa, because then we'd really have something to kick around! Wink
Back to top Go down
John

avatar

Posts : 2528
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 55
Location : UK

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:44 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
From Shiyane, Lloyd had used his binoculars to create an intimate sketch of Isandlwana, depicting Zulu warriors still wandering through the abandoned wagons and the decomposing body of a wagon driver crumpled on a rock. His sketch of Rorke’s Drift included a butcher’s scaffold where Zulu prisoners had been hung the day after the attack.

I'm not sure if this is the sketch in-question, or if it's just a section of the sketch. I have inserted a red-line showing what I think could be the scaffold in-question ?? comments welcome!!!
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:18 pm

John Young wrote:
To add to the interest George Hamilton Browne alleges that he captured a spy whilst at Rorke's Drift.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Turn the pages and discover that the blame is again placed on an Irishman.

John Y.
Thanks John. That is the account I recall!
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:30 am

Wasnt there a case of Browne riding over the drift to shoot a couple of sangomas that he thought were spying?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Zulu Spies    Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:53 am

Hi Springy .
'' Maori '' certainly mentions in his book something along those lines , he also talks of interagating prisoners or prisoner
and stops short of saying they were executed , but he does say it in a roundabout way ! . I assume that makes sense .
Cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
Ray63

avatar

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-05-05

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:46 am

I think, the two Zulus you mentioned appeared everyday on a hill. Watching the British and were sending smoke signals to the Zulus. Browne and another waited for them one day and shot them, I think he mentions that one was an old hag Question
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: zulu spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:13 am

Ray63 you may be right , that does jog the memory . I certainly remember him dealing with an old hag as he describes her .
90th.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:41 am

Wish I could shoot the old Hag that hangs round my front door begging for food, cant because my wife is fond of her mum. Not getting involved 
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Zulu Spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:57 am

Hi Springy .
Like it ! Very Happy  Very Happy 
90th Salute 
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:42 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Springy .
'' Maori '' certainly mentions in his book something along those lines...
Maori mentions a lot of things. Personally, I don't believe a word until somebody else has corroborated. But here is an interesting little exercise. On the bottom of page 157 he talks about ammunition that was buried near Sandspruit in the wake of Isandlwana. He says the markers were then washed away by a storm and it was never found. Provided nobody knows differently, why doesn't somebody local set out with some metal detectors and see if they can find i! I'm sure it would be worth a tidy little sum on eBay if you could (legally) claim and sell it.

Don't all volunteer at once!
Back to top Go down
Ulundi

avatar

Posts : 554
Join date : 2012-05-05

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:15 pm

There's is something on the forum relating to this. Is was buried to prevent it falling into enermy hands. But agree it shouldn't be to hard to find considering the amount and technology today.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9274
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Zulu Spies    Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:33 pm

Fairly certain I may have posted that article a couple of years back ! . So it is on here somewhere .
90th
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:22 am

" Maori mentions a lot of things. Personally, I don't believe a word until somebody else has corroborated"....fair point till you consider.
he was there!! he was amongst the first to think.oop's,
think about it...he was there.did he salute Pulleine?.whatever.
what a personality. cheers xhosa
Back to top Go down
6pdr

avatar

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:20 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
" think about it...he was there.
Yes. He was there. And at the Little, Big Horn too. Think about it. Suspect 
Back to top Go down
John

avatar

Posts : 2528
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 55
Location : UK

PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:28 am

And he ate a child!
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   

Back to top Go down
 
Zulu spies
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: