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Zulu Dawn Lt Col Pulleine Lord Chelmsford assures us that there is no way the Zulu can get around us without our knowing. Col Durnford Zulu generals have a nasty habit of doing the unexpected It might be wise to picket the hills
 
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The Prince Imperial of France--rare pose.
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 iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 8:40 pm

John from your image, any idea what this is! and is it still there?

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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 8:51 pm

CTSG,

It is a battlefield grave marker normally made of metal.

I've certainly never seen one of them on iSandlwana.

I imagine it disappeared sometime ago. I have seen them elsewhere in South Africa still intact.

John Y.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 8:56 pm

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Would be interesting to get an actual date of your photo. There are no cains in the back ground unlike this one. What date did A Boast carry out his task.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 9:10 pm

Boast 12TH OF FEBRUARY 1883
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 9:12 pm

John Young wrote:
CTSG,

It is a battlefield grave marker normally made of metal.  

I've certainly never seen one of them on iSandlwana.

I imagine it disappeared sometime ago.  I have seen them elsewhere in South Africa still intact.

John Y.
Bonsoir,

Nice photo.
The cairns are not yet paint in white...
It seems to me that the grave of Lt Pope was marked with a "iron cross"?
What is the "thing" on the slope of the mountain, on the right of the photo?
Regard
Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 9:15 pm


What is the "thing" on the slope of the mountain, on the right of the photo?

A wagon?
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Hi John.
Dont think I've seen that one before , have seen some old ones from memory , but dont remember seeing a Wagon in them.
Good one .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo 
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 06, 2013 11:47 pm

John Y,

The memorial on the left, I believe, is the one to George Ernest Hitchcock (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) - in affectionate remembrance of my beloved husband.....
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 4:29 am

Possibly this could help to date it John

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Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 7:12 am

The beauty of that photo is that it positions the old traders road and puts the 1/24 camp area into perspective. To many commentators are taking the, now defunct, road down to the hospital as the historical road and putting the 1/24th way to far to the South.

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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 7:40 am

Springbok9,

The Stabb/Bowker visit with Jabez Mofile in 1880, butterfly-nets on the battlefield.

I have found another print of the photograph, it is in Neville Edwards' book The Transvaal in Peace & War published in 1900.

See the link below: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Edwards it appears was a photographer as well as an author.  He was living in Southampton in the late 1890's and corresponding with Henry Rider Haggard.  He apparently became a local councillor and council leader in the early 1900's.  Question is when was he in South Africa?

I think my original assessment of the date isn't too wide of the mark.  It might be a matter of trying to finding out when the memorial which Kenny has mentioned to George Hitchcock was erected.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 12:50 pm

John
Just to the left of the iron cross is a light colored rectangle. Is it possible that it could be the base of the Blaikie memorial? It is a marble slab on a base.

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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 2:26 pm

Springbok,

Look at I would say yes, do see the upright directly behind the slab? Is that the Archbell memorial?

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 3:00 pm

The Archbell monument is further to the left, probably 5 paces or so. Had a careful look at that upright but cant make it out. Ive been checking through trying to put a date on any of the memorials, so far no luck. Ive gone through the JJ Oberholster, Im just checking through the bits and pieces from George Chadwick but so far nothing.
As a wild thought could this photo be connected to Woods and the pilgrimage of the Empress?

Cheers
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Springbok9,

No I don't think so as the ground would been the same as it was in the Stabb, Bowker & Molife photograph which was taken by G. T. Ferneyhough of Pietermaritzburg just prior to Wood's visit.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 3:21 pm

As a further thought, the iron cross, is it possible that it could have been the cross planted by Archdeacon Underwood? There is today a simpler iron cross in the same location. Smith does say it was mounted on a cairn.

Cheers
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 10:32 pm

Just for confirmation, are we saying the image posted by CTSG was taken roughly from the same location as the one posted by John Y
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySat Dec 07, 2013 11:09 pm

I was thinking along the same lines 24th, I think John's image was taken much further back.
 
 
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySun Dec 08, 2013 12:09 am

That's the area where I would have said JY image was taken.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySun Dec 08, 2013 4:32 am

LH the 24th memorial was dedicated in 1914 so doesn't appear in both photos. I reckon the photos were taken within metres of each other, only real difference is the parallax ox the lens. Theres a lot of intriguing things though with Johns photo:
the road position,
that stubby little stone cross,
the incomplete Blaikie grave
and looking half way up on the right there is a straightish line almost like a dust cloud behind a moving car.
Is there two wagons there?
Also around the Hitchcock grave is the stone wall, part of it is still there.

Fascinating photo, also gives a great idea of the space taken up by an Ox Wagon, now imagine two hundred and twenty of those together.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySun Dec 08, 2013 10:52 am

Over-layed. You coud be right.

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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptySun Dec 08, 2013 7:56 pm

The large column Monument, in Johns photo it shows obvious signs of weathering. Do we know when the stones were first white washed?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 7:17 am

Impi
Just of centre to the right is a light coloured rectangle, that is the position of Blaikies grave. Just above that is a light coloured stub ( I think its a stone cross ) keep on traveling up and around half way between the top of that stub and the top of the photo is a small dot. That's the cairn, his stand is a little higher against the 'cliff' wall. The cave is in the same vicinity.

Cheers
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 5:44 pm

Next to Blakie's memorial, there is one to John Philip Archbell, Sergeant Conductor, of the Native Contigent - Killed at Isandhlwana 22 Jan. 1879 - His duty nobly done for King and Empire.  [in my notes I have underlined King]. Archbell also appears as one of seven names on the PMB High School memorial erected in 1969 near 24th memorial.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 6:15 pm

Hi Kenny
The King and Empire has always been a bit of a mystery, presupposes I would assume that the memorial was erected after the death of Victoria.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 6:59 pm

Having a little play with the JY photo!

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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Springbok9

I am awaiting Ken Gillings' new guidebook to the AZW Battlefields. Have you seen it? I encouraged him to follow the format of the Holt's Guides to WW1 Western Front and Gallipoli. This may hopefully solve some of the queries raised in this topic and become a vital reference book.
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 7:39 pm

littlehand wrote:
Having a little play with the JY photo!

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That's food for thought LH  agree 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 6:21 am

Kenny
Has Ken updated his guidebook? He wrote a Guide to the Battles of Natal around 12 to 13 years ago, One came up on Auction a couple of weeks back but I was outbid.
Nicki Von Der Heyde has just released her Battlefields guide, but that is a tourists book.
Let me know on Kens Book.

Cheers
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 7:54 am

Springbok9

The details I have are:

Discovering the Battlefields of the Anglo-Zulu War

Published by Chris Cocks of 30 Degrees South
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 8:05 am

Hi Kenny
This is the original, I will e mail Ken and see what hes conjured up.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 8:28 am

Hi Kenny
Thanks for the heads up. Ive just ordered it.

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cheers

90th

Looks a far better read than the other 'guide' we have been discussing.
 agree 
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John Young

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyThu Dec 12, 2013 11:51 pm

Now a Magic Lantern slide of the same image, written on encased glass plate are the words: Battle-field of Isandula.

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Battle-field of Isandula
John Young Collection

A few things become slightly better focused in this version, if I can get hold of a light box I try for a better image - better still a Magic Lantern to project it!

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 13, 2013 6:21 am

Now that its crisper the shape of Blaikies memorial becomes abundantly clear. Also Im more convinced than ever that the stubby structure just above/behind Blaikie is a stone cross. Great pity its no longer there it would have identified another of the defenders.
A lot more bedrock is exposed today around Chelmsfords tent area than in that photo.


Nice one John.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 13, 2013 6:21 am

Still the big questions would be, when and by whom?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 13, 2013 8:16 am

Springbok,

Yes it is a cross. Also a lot more detail on the battlefield grave marker.

There's engraving from 'Pictoral World' circa 1882/3, which might hold a further clue. I have just got find where Mrs Y. has hidden it!

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 13, 2013 9:26 am

John
Ive just been looking through some photos and after enlarging came across something Ive never notice before. On the site of the small white cross is a grave marker ( circled) can you recall it at all?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyFri Dec 13, 2013 10:26 am

Managed to enlarge the area


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John Young

John Young

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyTue Feb 25, 2014 11:31 pm

Springy,

Eureka!

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The graves at iSandlwana, engraving taken from The Pictorial World, 1883
John Young Collection.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 6:12 am

JY
Brilliant!
That looks like Melsop has been busy again!

Ive spent years now chasing down sources for cairn positions. One of the key motivations was George Chadwicks thoughts on cairns on the ridge. He as we know produced a report when he rebuilt the cairns, that I believe is in Durban in a box of other files donated by his estate. Ken Gillings has had a look through and not managed to locate the photos that George took as part of the report. I have however come across a reference to another file, unfortunately in JHB. Im looking at flying up there in a couple of weeks to get access to it. The other reference of course is Major Southey. So maybe I will get lucky at last.

Cheers
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Ray63

Ray63

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 10:00 am

John Young wrote:
Springy,

Eureka!

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The graves at iSandlwana, engraving taken from The Pictorial World, 1883
John Young Collection.

John Y.

That iron marker appears a lot in early photos.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 10:21 am

Hi Ray
Its a standard grave marker used throughout Zulu land
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Cheers
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Ray63

Ray63

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 11:51 am

Thanks Springbok. Who's the Isandlwana marker dedicated to.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 12:11 pm

Theres no name on that cross and the small adjacent headstone is worn smooth. It is in the area of the Colonial and H company stands but no way of identifying. Theres also the possibility that the cross there was presented by the Bishop of Natal.
JY or Ken will probably contribute with the givers ID.

Cheers


Last edited by springbok9 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 7:00 pm

Springbok, who's this chap "Melsop" what's his background?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7256
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
PostSubject: Re: iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's   iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 7:11 pm

He was a stone mason in civilian life but was serving with the 2/24th. He carved the RD memorial with a couple of broken bayonets then went on to carve the headstones at Helpmakaar. He was discharged in 1880 and stayed on in Natal opening a stone masons business in Pietermaritzburg. But he was obviously a better mason than businessman because he was declared insolveny in 1883. After that he disappeared from view.

Cheers
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iSandlwana battlefield late 1880's Empty
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