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 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)

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JHughes

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PostSubject: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:47 am

This is my first post here in 1879zuluwar.com so please redirect me to the correct forum if im posting this in wrong one.

At Intombe Drift battle, there was a 80th of Foot John Hughes Regimental#1499 killed March 12, 1879.

I'm posting to see if anyone has "claimed" him as a decendent, and/or knows his age.
Some war memorials list age, however the Intombe battle field and Lichfield Cathedral do not list age.

The same Regiment has a George Hughes Regimental #525 (Which I would like to think is my Great grandfather)

G-Grandfather's son told a story that George told him "his brother was killed next to him while they were in South Africa", and that his father George "Has a sabor scar down his left side".  

George Hughes born Kings Norton, Birmingham England Sept 26, 1862
John Hughes born Pattington, England abt 1857

It would be great to remember them, or to eliminate them from this battle at least and I'll continue my search else where.

Thank You!!!
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PostSubject: 80th Foot    Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:34 am

Hi J.Hughes
There are 9 Hughes named in Robert Hope's work titled '' A Staffordshire Regt In The Zulu & Sekukuni Campaigns 1878-79 ''
George Hughes 525 Private , Born ; Sallyoak , Worcestershire , Enlisted at Birmingham 29/6/75 , Aged 18 yrs 2 mths , Joined Regt at Singapore 17/11/76 , Description ; Eyes Blue , Hair Brown , Complexion Sallow , Height 5ft 5 1/4 inches , Trade Labourer , Transferred To Army Reserve 30/6/81. Entitled to the Campaign Medal with Clasp ' 1879 '
George Hughes is in D.R. Forsyth's List but not on the Medal Rolls .

John Hughes 1499 Private , Born ; Liverpool , Lancashire , Enlisted at Liverpool 1 / 12/ 70 , Age 18 Yrs , Joined Regt at Belfast 4/12/70 , Eyes Hazel , Hair Light Brown , Complexion Sallow , Height 5ft 5 1/2 inches , Trade Labourer , Religion C of E . Served in F Co ( Muster Roll & Pay Book ) and B Co ( Major Tucker's Report ) . Killed In Action 12 / 3 / 79 , Intombi River , South Africa
Entitled to the Campaign Medal with Clasp ' 1878-79 '

The Book also lists 9 Survivors , that can be confidently identified , as being known to have survived with the information which is currently available. No Hughes among them , but he may well have been , just no records to verify it . Hope this is of some help ?
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:51 pm

Here is 525 George Hughes 80th Foot on the medal roll, entitled to the 1879 bar for engagement against Sekukuni. Not against the Zulus (so not Intombi). Just out of interest there is also a 524 George Hughes 80th Foot in the Chelsea Hospital records who was invalidid in 1876. Might be just a coincidence that it is the preceding regimental number.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:24 pm

Fascinating, thank you very much for that information!  You really do have a treasure of resources!
Although i can tell that these same name soldiers where not my relationship, I know now where not to look.

Forgive the length of this posts, I got carried away.  I’ve been haunted 25 years trying to find these two brothers story, and I’m obviously not very good at my research.

I guess I got what I paid for with the Birmingham researcher, but ive been at a dead end for many years and it really sounded plausible what he sold me here, but without ages/birthdates it is obviously not a connection.  I am still at a dead end.  I very much appreciated your help, before no one is left to tell their story.

I only have an old newspaper article found in his house, rumors, and this picture of George to go on.  

Im not sure why the article was full of half-truths and not true at all, it must of been near the end of his life and his memory of dates and events were worn:
The subject of our sketch this month will appeal strongly to our members at this time because of his military career.  Born in Benares, East India, September 26, 1862, while his father was serving in the English army. Brother Hughes was brought up in the environment of army life and so we find him joining the South Staffordshire regiment as a drummer boy in 1876 at the age of fourteen years, and seeing active service under Lord Roberts in 1878 and 1879 in India.  Brother Hughes joined the Manchester Unity in 1880, being initiated into the Good Intent Lodge, Burton on Trent, England.From there, he went to Egypt under command of Sir Garnet Woolsley's in 1882.  In 1885 he re-enlisted in the 76th Hindoostan regiment and completed his service with this famous company.

George was NOT born in India, and from 1861 on: his father was a brewer laborer in Birmingham.   I know from marriage, immigration, and birth Certificate:
George Hughes was born King’s Norton, Birmingham England Sept 26, 1862. Middleton Road.  
The 1861 census shows parents John & Hannah, with a son John Hughes 3yrs (abt 1858).  

The mystery has been; by the 1871 census, the two brothers; George and John are gone, but parents are still there, in same house, raising new children!

The newspaper article says George “joined the South Staffordshire as a drummer boy at age 14” (1876). Before 1881 South Staffordshire regiments would be either 80th or 38th.   I lean toward the 80th from the mention of service in South Africa, but I really don’t know.  

When I spoke to George’s son in 1985, he told me the rumor of his father "George’s twin brother being killed next to him in battle abt 1880, and that he (his father George) had a scar down his side from a saber”.  The newspaper article says George “joined the Good Intent lodge 1880” and re-enlisted with 76th (The Dukes after 1881).  Service was 7yrs colours, 5ys reserve, not counting until he was of age (18?) would they have let him “resign” from injury or trauma of his brother’s death?

I can only imagine that these two brothers would not be separated, and they would join the same regiment somehow.   Did he desert? Is George Hughes really my Great Grandfathers name? What happened to his brother? Does 1861 cenuse have wrong name or age.? There must be some truth in the article.  I got him at birth, and when he came to Nova Scotia as a Duke of Wellington (Profile Picture), but ive spent 25 years on trying to find his story (and his brother John’s in between.)

Thank you again for your time and effort, it is very much appreciated.

Any suggestions?
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:43 pm

Here's another piece of evidence that supports the old newspaper article. 525 George Hughes' of the South Staffordshire Regt.(80th) entitlement to the Egypt Medal 1882 (the "No" column means he was not present at the Battle of Tel el Kebir).
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Keep looking!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:18 pm

Unfortunately, member 90th list 525 George as:
"18 yrs, 2 mo. In 29/6/75 when he enlisted at Birmingham" that would make his Birth month/year : April /1857 Sallyoak Worcestershire.

My George is born Sept 26, 1862 Kings Norton, Birmingham Sad

I would love to make the connection, but it just doesnt seem to add up, unless he lied about age/bd when joining so he could be with his older brother John (abt 1857) making the connection to "twins" rumor.
But even that 1499 John member 90th list he was "born Liverpool, Lancashire", and my John Hughes born Paddingtion abt 1857 scratch
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:59 pm

Quite a mystery. Which regiment is he with at the time of the photo? Looks as though you might be able to see the helmet badge.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:45 pm

SOUTH AFRICA 1877-79


80th Foot

Killed in action at Intombe River 12 March 1879 (unless stated otherwise)

459 Colour Sergeant Henry Fredericks - Missing in Action

Sergeants:
1271 W. Johnson - killed in action at Isandhlwana 22 January 1879
2081 H. Thompson - killed in action at Isandhlwana 22 January 1879
1630 H. Watts - killed in action at Ulundi 4 July 1879

1627 Lance-Sergeant G. Sansom
544 Lance-Corporal E. Johnson
733 Lance-Corporal John McCoy
1647 Drummer John Leather

Privates:
546 Jonah Adey
585 John Anthony
203 Arthur Banks
943 John Banner - Missing in Action
745 George Broughton
48 James Brown
488 Henry Brownson
1290 John Chadwick
1377 J. Chesteron - killed in action at Isandhlwana 22 January 1879
1797 James Christie
1042 Alfred Day - Missing in Action
953 John Dodd - Missing in Action
260 J.H. Dutton
1028 William Farnell - Missing in Action
222 William Findlay - Missing in Action
1892 Joseph Floyd - killed in action at Ulundi 4 July 1879
1465 William Fox - Missing in Action
1925 John Furniaux - Missing in Action
500 Edward Gittings
1696 Joseph Green
526 George Hadley - Missing in Action
227 George Haines
2008 Julian Hart - Missing in Action
999 Eli Hawkes - Missing in Action
783 Thomas Healey
1021 Henry Hill
709 Thomas Hodges
1433 E. Holman - killed in action at Isandhlwana 22 January 1879
1499 John Hughes
902 John Ingham
1919 Henry Jacobs
1865 John Lafferty
996 Ralph Leese
1931 Henry Lodge - Missing in Action
559 W. McDonald - killed in action at Isandhlwana 22 January 1879
1378 Bernard McSherry
590 Henry Meadows
2063 Arthur Middow
1976 George Mitchell
2048 Robert Moore
1032 William Moran
1926 Henry Night
220 William Phipps
2085 Charles Pritchard
1163 Arthur Pummell
1974 F. Ralphs
259 John Robinson
2070 Henry Ruffle
695 William Seymour
615 Michael Sherridan - Missing in Action
1770 Joseph Silcock - Missing in Action
510 Henry Smith - Missing in Action
587 Joseph Tibbott
1291 Richard Tomlinson - Missing in Action
1705 George Tucker - Missing in Action
104 Thomas Tucker
370 Joseph Vernon
60 J. Whitehouse - killed in action at Isandhlwana 22 January 1879
1605 Herbert Woodward - Missing in Action
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:06 pm

The information on 525 George Hughes, in the book quoted by 90th, is taken from the 80th Regiment's Nominal Roll held at the Regimental Museum, Whittington Barracks, near Lichfield, Staffordshire. It might be worth getting it checked with regard to his age. "Sallyoak" is clearly Selly Oak (perhaps said with a Birmingham accent!) which is only a mile or so from Kings Norton.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:44 pm

Littlehand - Thank you for that list, is there a List of "Living Soldiers" that were in that company???

Rusteze Steve - Thank you! did not know there were so close, i have contacted someone at Straffordshire museum, hopefully they will contact me back... Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:51 pm

Rusteze Steve - Oh the picture of him, has written on the back, West Indies and was in a sea shell frame, assuming that he did joined the 76th Hindoostan Regiment, which became The Dukes of Wellington after 1881. sent to Halifax Nova Scotia (Where he met his wife), West Indies, then U.S. where he was said to arrive May 1, 1890, married July 1, 1893, immigration paper June 3, 1895.

I'd love to know the height of the pit helment, that would give me a idea of his height :)
The chevron on his lower left sleeve was awarded for two years' good conduct which tells you that he had at least been in the army that long when the photo was taken. I think the picture may be inverted.
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:56 pm

The 2nd Battalion Duke of Wellington's Regiment (old 76th) were in Bermuda (West Indies) from 1886-1888.

This is their Cap badge and Elephant collar tags.
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Steve
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PostSubject: 80th Regt John Hughes 1499 KIA Intombi Drift 12/3/79    Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:33 am

Hi JHughes
See my original post , last paragraph about survivors , seems many of the records were destroyed in an Air Raid during WW2 ! No No Suspect
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: 80th of Foot John Hughes 1499 Intombe (First Post Here)   Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:29 pm

awww, got ya, thanks 90th
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