Durnford was he capable.5

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:47 pm

As a matter of interest this is the area shown on the map.
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Guest

Yeah Frank, agreed, although only 50 years ago it seems
so dated now!, but bless Smail, i have a lot of his work's
and there are as you know some really historic photo's
you never see in modern publications.. i will nip into the
Central library in city centre manchester and photocopy
the full map, that's if i can find anything ever again after
it was re-opened a few months ago after a 3 year refurb,
they moved all the ref books, tens of thousands, to some
underground ex saltmines in cheshire..all the bound copys
of the ILN's and the Graphic and most of the nineteenth
century periodicals, nothing is where it was, the systems are
completely changed, lots of new staff, i will have to find the
time to start from scratch, and guess what, every thing is
price linked..charging, for what belongs to us all! i'm all
for them recovering admin charges, but they have put a price
on every thing..money grubbing philistines..end of rant. Very Happy

xhosa

Great photo mate, looks so peaceful and benign..

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:59 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:: springy

Thanks for the clarification of your post. See my post of 2.02.

You are quite right, I agree, that at the time Durnford was called to Isandhlwana his column had been split quite significantly to a point where referring to it as a column was stretching the truth. However, the fact remains that it WAS still an independent Column as demonstrated on the 22nd by Crealock being designated as being the staff officer with sufficient rank to give orders to an independent column commander and NOT Clery. It is also demonstrated by Durnford's actions on arrival at the camp and on leaving it.

Thus my position is that there was no de facto amalgamation/hostile takeover AT THAT POINT certainly not in Durnford's mind (though a future one - even an imminent one - may have been on the cards and in Chelmsford's mind). I do not feel that the later remarks by Crealock that you quoted indicate any takeover (de facto or de jure).

I also totally agree with you re the 'taking his whole command to deal with 400 Zulus'. He precisely did not do that.

Fair enough. What however do you make of those points I isolated from Crealock, The position he expected Durnford to be in, his adding in Durnfords force to the defenders
As he, I would have assumed, was responsible for drafting the instructions for Durnford to move up to Rorkes Drift he would have been fully aware of his position. I just find it curious that he makes a point of positioning a Durnford camp site for no apparent reason. And we have agreed on his approach to his writing.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:04 pm

Les
Its the same as the Cape Archives, now in the old Roland Street Jail and charging an arm and a leg. Plus having to wait 3 to4 weeks for copies.
That faint line of track moving right to left is the aprox line that M and C travelled to get up the hill. Most visitors think they made their way up the new dirt road that goes down to the drift. That in itself is a bitch to walk up, the old track is even worse. I still don't know how they did, possibly the added inducement of a rather angry gentleman with a sharp stick chasing them would help

Cheers

Guest

Yep. inducement.. Very Happy

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Julian Whybra wrote:: springy

Thanks for the clarification of your post. See my post of 2.02.

You are quite right, I agree, that at the time Durnford was called to Isandhlwana his column had been split quite significantly to a point where referring to it as a column was stretching the truth. However, the fact remains that it WAS still an independent Column as demonstrated on the 22nd by Crealock being designated as being the staff officer with sufficient rank to give orders to an independent column commander and NOT Clery. It is also demonstrated by Durnford's actions on arrival at the camp and on leaving it.

Thus my position is that there was no de facto amalgamation/hostile takeover AT THAT POINT certainly not in Durnford's mind (though a future one - even an imminent one - may have been on the cards and in Chelmsford's mind). I do not feel that the later remarks by Crealock that you quoted indicate any takeover (de facto or de jure).

I also totally agree with you re the 'taking his whole command to deal with 400 Zulus'. He precisely did not do that.

Okay, let's take a new angle.

We know Durnford had an independant command. However previous orders show he was still obeying orders from LC that directed him to various locations. When Durnford received these orders he moved as requested to the various locations, and did nothing until further orders arrived. So what's so different about the 22nd Jan. why did he not just move to the camp, and await further orders, if there had been a cause to send them.

Did he feel as he said, left behind, thinking LC was going engage the Zulu and there was no part for him to play, is that why he told Pulleine he wasn't going to stay. He wanted to show LC his capabilities after he was rebuked on the 14th Jan.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Impi

I think you make a good point in your last paragraph. I do think there is an element of him wanting to show his capabilities. But if there was also a good military reason for doing what he did then that's fine. I think that is what we are trying to decide.

Steve

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

rusteze wrote:: Impi

I think you make a good point in your last paragraph. I do think there is an element of him wanting to show his capabilities. But if there was also a good military reason for doing what he did then that's fine. I think that is what we are trying to decide.

Steve

Based on the outcome of the battle, I would strongly disagree. It has been said that Durnford expected further orders to be waiting at Isandlwana, there were none.

So Who ordered Durnford to put a large portion of his men onto the Nqutu heights to the North and North East after his arrival in camp?

Who ordered Durnford to ride off Eastwards from camp either on his 'rescue mission' or scouting duties? In camp, Lt Cochrane had already confirmed Durnford knew there was an enemy "in force behind the hills on the left" and "the enemy are in three columns"

Why did Durnford ask for two companies of the 24th infantry to support his movements Eastwards? Them on foot and him on horseback when it has already been established that a serious threat was emerging from the Northwest but as yet unseen? A zulu spy had already indicated a force of around 6000 warriors in that area. What could 150 troops on horseback do?

Prior to the reprimanded by Chelmsford, who ordered Durnford to move his troops into Zululand from Middle Drift instead of Rorke's Drift?

Guest

No there was no further orders.. but the 1st report of Zulu activity
was around 7.30.. Durnford and Chard had a chat! Durnford moved
to the camp, found no fresh orders awaiting, received a report, went
to link up with LC, came across the whole Zulu army, withdrew in
good order, saved countless lives, fought a last stand and bravely
died in an overall general massacre. all that is fact. what else can be
said? anything that is not fact, and not in the public domain, must be
discounted as speculation, that last statement is also a fact. xhosa

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Yes Xhosa. Personal observation.

Guest

Cheers mate, also historically correct. xhosa

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Impi

Nobody had to order Durnford to act. He was a column commander. We can discuss whether he did the right thing based on what he knew at the time.

Steve

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

The first question I would ask, if that was the case, why did he move to the camp, when Order to.
And we must agree, whatever orders were left for Pulleine, would have been binding on Durnford.

And yes, perhaps that would be good road to go down, as to what he knew at the time. I will let you fire the first shot!

Can we keep away from the famous Durnfords last stand, and his heroic deed in keeping the gates open. We can go there later if you wish, as that seems to be the only thing at Isandlwana he is really remembered for. I'm really concerned with the events that got him into that postion. No disrepect intended.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:56 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:: Springy.

I have found the original conversation between Julian and myself on Thursday November the 12th 2012, however, with the topic being locked I cannot insert the 'quote' to show you what Julian said. But if you look in the search you should find it, a quick run down is that Julian said.

"Bengough's battalion was one arm of the pincer, Durnford the other, with Chelmsford in the centre waiting to crack whatever nut appeared. The orders of the 22nd endorse those of the 19th and follow on naturally (or so it must have seemed to Durnford). It's one continuous narrative and would have been all perfectly in keeping. No fresh orders means stick to the plan as dicussed. And so he did"

impi.

This is what was discussed back in 2012 between myself and Julian.

Read what Julian said at the end, ie; "No fresh orders means stick to the plan as discussed. And he did".

Guest

Going hypothetical and with 20/20 i think stuff the RB..
i will have a few of these in steady hands.. got to go
now. leaves on the line at 15.58, just waiting on a taxi.
xhosa

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Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:03 pm

Yes, it's a pity they didn't have some Gat's.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Impi

Being able to make decisions of his own does not preclude him from obeying orders from Chelmsford when he gets them.

On the quite difficult question of what he understood the strength and dispositions of the enemy to be at the time - I think we are long past the first shot having been fired on the forum. Many posts have addressed that in the last few days. At the moment, I go with the view that he did what he thought was appropriate, not recklessly try and show his capabilities. You and others disagree. That's fine.

I don't think there is any doubt about the mans courage so, as you say, the question of last stands can wait till later as far as I'm concerned.

I am far happier that the discussion is now about his judgement that morning and not about him disobeying orders (which was never the case).

Steve

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Mr M. Cooper wrote:: Springy.

I have found the original conversation between Julian and myself on Thursday November the 12th 2012, however, with the topic being locked I cannot insert the 'quote' to show you what Julian said. But if you look in the search you should find it, a quick run down is that Julian said.

"Bengough's battalion was one arm of the pincer, Durnford the other, with Chelmsford in the centre waiting to crack whatever nut appeared. The orders of the 22nd endorse those of the 19th and follow on naturally (or so it must have seemed to Durnford). It's one continuous narrative and would have been all perfectly in keeping. No fresh orders means stick to the plan as dicussed. And so he did"

impi.

This is what was discussed back in 2012 between myself and Julian.

Read what Julian said at the end, ie; "No fresh orders means stick to the plan as discussed. And he did".

Martin the orders on the 22nd did not indorse those on the 19th. How could it!

Looking at the orders that could have been issued that day.

Strengthen / Reinforce the camp.
Take command of the camp.
Move to the camp. (This is the one that was sent)

None of the above endorses those issued on the 19th.

If Durnford was required to act on those orders issued on the 19th it would have said so.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

rusteze wrote:: Impi

Nobody had to order Durnford to act. He was a column commander. We can discuss whether he did the right thing based on what he knew at the time.

Steve

Steve, you said

"We can discuss whether he did the right thing based on what he knew at the time."

I agreed said you could fire the first shot. In othe words start the discussion.

Then you say is been covered before.

So why, suggest it!

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

So am I right in thinking, Durnford only left the camp, when the message came in, that the Zulus were retiring in all directions.

I will put my head on the block again! springbok Rolling Eyes

Who did order Lieutenant Cavaye to take up a position as a piquet on the hill?

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:49 pm

Ray
Yes
Its debatable, Essex says Durnford.
Salute

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

You say debatable. In what way?

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:55 pm

Theres statements that say Durnford and others that say Pulleine. I personally believe it was Pulleine. Essex suggests, and this after his COI statement, that it was Durnford.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:56 pm

Well, according to Ian Knight he says it was Pulleine?

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:58 pm

Ian Knight wasn't there Martin. Chelmsord says he was told by Essex that it was Durnford.

Cheers

Guest

" Durnford replied, very well, it does not very much matter. we will not
take them". he could do without them-although it must have been clear to
the officers of the 24th that the northern aspect was a blind spot in the
camps defences. As a result two companies of the 1st 24th were indeed
indeed later sent on to the spur to the north. although the order might be
traced back to Durnford, Pulleine quite clearly had the final say in the
timing of their despatch. xhosa

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:07 pm

LOL, nice one springy.

But I would have thought that Ian would have done a little research about this before he stated it in one of his books.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Impi

The point I am making is that deciding what Durnford knew and did that morning is now the proper focus of discussion, and a lot has been said about it already, including by me. So it simply isn't a case of firing the first shot as you put it. I have put some longish posts together in the last week or so to set out my views and to explore a few possibilities. I have not reproduced great tracts of what others have written, or written two line comments under a copy of someone else's post.

So thank you for your invitation to begin - I think I have already, and so have others.

Steve

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Here's a good account of just how reckless Durnford was, with other men's lives.

"Statement of Lieutenant H.D.Davies commanding Edendale Troop, NNH.
...We looked up to the ridge on our front. And could see the enemy in great numbers, 1500 yards steadily advancing and firing at us. Colonel Durnford gave the order for us to extend our men and wait for the enemy to come within 400 yards of us, then Henderson’s and my Troop to retire …(TNA(PRO) WO 33/34 Inclosure 2 in No.96.)

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

And he should have done what? The whole venture was reckless with mens lives!

Steve

Guest

It's a perfectly correct textbook maneuver, used to good effect it can
check the enemy's advance impi, Buller as you are aware used the
self same tactic. but in order to bring on the attack. xhosa

Guest

Frank, i forgot to add the sources for the two
companies were, Cochrane, WO 32/7726//079/1473
and 1596.
and as you mentioned Essex sent to the Times
2nd of April 1879. xhosa

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:35 pm

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agree

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:08 pm

It has been said numerous times that Pulleine was strictly sticking to Chelmsford's orders to defend the camp, and that when Durnford arrived that those orders would be binding on him.

HOWEVER. Strictly speaking, Chelmsford NEVER left any orders for Pulleine did he?

Clery took it upon himself to write those, and let's not forget that Chelmsford stopped Clery from writing any orders to Durnford because Crealock said that a Junior officer should NOT be writing orders to a senior officer, ie; column commander. Therefor, strictly speaking, the orders that Clery gave to Pulleine could NOT be binding on Durnford as they were NOT OFFICIAL orders from LC, but from a junior officer who had taken it upon himself to write them. And as we have seen, Chelmsford himself agreed with Crealock that a junior officer should not write orders to a senior officer, ie; column commander. Therefor, strictly speaking, Clery should NOT have taken it upon himself to write any orders to Pulleine, because, strictly speaking, Clery was also junior to Pulleine.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I guess we will have to wait for JW essay to move this forward, instead of backwards.

Subject: Durnford was he capable 5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:31 pm

Hi Martin
In reply to your post asking if Durnford was looking for wagons , the answer is yes , wagons and forage were what he was seeking back on the Natal side of the river , when he was ordered up to Isandlwana .
Springy
I dont think you'll get an argument from me regarding the distance Durnford had pitched his camp into Zululand , I said 2 - 4 miles as a generalization , I hadnt checked the books for the detailed estimation , when I get a chance I'll look it up . If , and then , your reply seems incorrect , then I'll let you now ! You need to study mo

Cheers 90th Very Happy

PS I'll have to check the scores from your Test Match Salute

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:36 pm

Hi Gary.

Thanks mate, I thought that's what he was doing, was it Vermaak's?

WI, 88/2, 4 behind.

Salute

Subject: Durnford was he capable 5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:41 pm

Hi Martin
I do seem to recall it was indeed around Vermaak's Salute

Cheers mate 90th Very Happy

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Mr M. Cooper wrote:: It has been said numerous times that Pulleine was strictly sticking to Chelmsford's orders to defend the camp, and that when Durnford arrived that those orders would be binding on him.

HOWEVER. Strictly speaking, Chelmsford NEVER left any orders for Pulleine did he?

Clery took it upon himself to write those, and let's not forget that Chelmsford stopped Clery from writing any orders to Durnford because Crealock said that a Junior officer should NOT be writing orders to a senior officer, ie; column commander. Therefor, strictly speaking, the orders that Clery gave to Pulleine could NOT be binding on Durnford as they were NOT OFFICIAL orders from LC, but from a junior officer who had taken it upon himself to write them. And as we have seen, Chelmsford himself agreed with Crealock that a junior officer should not write orders to a senior officer, ie; column commander. Therefor, strictly speaking, Clery should NOT have taken it upon himself to write any orders to Pulleine, because, strictly speaking, Clery was also junior to Pulleine.

Clery gave Pulleine his orders on behalf of Glyn, not LC.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:55 pm

24th wrote:

Mr M. Cooper wrote:: It has been said numerous times that Pulleine was strictly sticking to Chelmsford's orders to defend the camp, and that when Durnford arrived that those orders would be binding on him.

HOWEVER. Strictly speaking, Chelmsford NEVER left any orders for Pulleine did he?

Clery took it upon himself to write those, and let's not forget that Chelmsford stopped Clery from writing any orders to Durnford because Crealock said that a Junior officer should NOT be writing orders to a senior officer, ie; column commander. Therefor, strictly speaking, the orders that Clery gave to Pulleine could NOT be binding on Durnford as they were NOT OFFICIAL orders from LC, but from a junior officer who had taken it upon himself to write them. And as we have seen, Chelmsford himself agreed with Crealock that a junior officer should not write orders to a senior officer, ie; column commander. Therefor, strictly speaking, Clery should NOT have taken it upon himself to write any orders to Pulleine, because, strictly speaking, Clery was also junior to Pulleine.

Clery gave Pulleine his orders on behalf of Glyn, not LC.

Makes no difference, he took it upon himself to write those orders, and he was also wrong in doing so, because as a junior officer, he should not be writing orders to a senior officer. Would an RSM take orders from a private?

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Clery was the Senior Staff Officer to the 3rd Column, commanded by Colonel Glyn,

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:05 pm

John wrote:: Clery was the Senior Staff Officer to the 3rd Column, commanded by Colonel Glyn,

So what! Neither Glyn nor Chelmsford left any orders for Pulleine, Clery did it on his own accord, making those orders UNOFFICIAL.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

It makes no difference. If as you say Clery took in upon himself. Which I doubt.
Glyn and LC were preparing to leave, that's why they have Staff officers and Secretaries. What I mean by it's makes no difference.

2nd Evidence.—Colonel Glyn, C.B., states: From the time the column under my command crossed the border I was in the habit of receiving instructions from the Lieutenant-General Commanding as to the movements of the column, and I accompanied him on most of the patrols and reconnaissances carried out by him. I corroborate Major Clery's statement.

Glyn corroborated everything Clery said, under oath at the COE.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:20 pm

John, Glyn is only corroborating what was said in that 2nd evidence you quoted.

As a junior officer, Clery should not have taken it on his own accord by writing and issuing orders to a senior officer.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Martin you have no proof to substantiate what your saying. Clery wound not have wrote that, unless Glyn authorised it. Clery statement at the COE states exactly what he done. No one at the COE pulled him up for taking it upon himself to write orders. The orders he wrote to Pulleine were in line with the one, he was ordered to write to Durnford before Crealock spoke up in a tent behind canvas. .
Glyn.
"I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp. I saw the column out of camp and accompanied it."

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

And I think the reason, Crealock send the orders to Durnford, was because Durnford was not under the command of Glyn remembering Clery was Staff officer to Glyn. Nothing to do with Clery being junior.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:37 pm

No proof? Have you not read any of Julian's posts regarding this?

Neither Glyn nor Chelmsford left any orders for Pulleine, so Clery took it upon himself to do it. Clery was junior to Pulleine, so he should not have done that without any authority.

Now! was this order that Clery wrote and issued to Pulleine signed or initialled by Glyn or Chelmsford?

Or did Clery take that upon himself to do?

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Mr M. Cooper wrote:: No proof? Have you not read any of Julian's posts regarding this?

Neither Glyn nor Chelmsford left any orders for Pulleine, so Clery took it upon himself to do it. Clery was junior to Pulleine, so he should not have done that without any authority.

Now! was this order that Clery wrote and issued to Pulleine signed or initialled by Glyn or Chelmsford?

Or did Clery take that upon himself to do?

Well as that order isn't available we can only assume. Unless you have it.

It really gets boring when you keep referring everything back to Julian. He is not the all seeing orical of the Zulu war.
As I have said, all the evidence was read out at the COE, and no one then or since, apart from you have pulled Clery up for not having the authority.
But if you read Clery's evidence I'm sure many would have gone with him, as it all made sense, compaired to that of Crealock. And yes we would not be having this discussion, because had Clery sent the original order to Durnford, he would have known what was required of him. In turn that would have stopped Durnford scattering his men all over the show.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Crealock COE

"3. Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, R.E., was not under Colonel Glyn's command at this time; he had been moved from his original position before Middle Drift, with some 250 Mounted Natives, 200 of Sikalis footmen, the Rocket Battery, and one battalion of the 1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent to the Umsinga District, on the Lieutenant-General's seeing the ease with which the Natal frontier could be passed in that part of the Buffalo River. The Lieutenant-General's order was therefore sent to him by me, being the only Head Quarter Staff Officer (except the Aide-de-Camps) with him. These details formed part of No. 2 Column under his command"

"2. I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No." The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford"

Hightlighted. Must have missed this, by relevant to the argument that Durnford was acting in line with those he received on the 19th. "FRESH"

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5 Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:05 am

John.

The COE was one big cover up.

They all covered their backs and looked after themselves and of course Chelmsford.

By Clery taking it upon himself to write and issue orders to Pulleine without any authority from either Glyn or LC, that makes those orders unofficial.

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