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 George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644

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JHughes

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PostSubject: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:48 pm

I think this is the correct form to post this topic, but if not, please let me know.

I paid for research, which I'm not completely convinced with.  I want to make sure I'm not researching the wrong person.

Looking for any info on George Hughes Service Number 1644

PLEASE HELP!

I know there was a George Hughes Service #525 in the Zulu War, and that his brother John Hughes #1499 was killed (Rumored to be killed on 1st Boar War/Transvaal War.  Both receiving South Africa General Service medals, with 1879 bar. Also, George is awarded the 1882 Egypt medal and the Khedives Star.

My George Hughes was Born Kings Norton, Birmingham, England Sept 26, 1862 (Emigration to USA & Birth Certificate match)

George Hughes #525 – enlists for the 80th Foot as No.525 of that unit in the Birmingham District and is described as being 18 years and 2 months old. As the 80th Foot is overseas the depot of that battalion is serving with the 38th Foot at Aldershot, moving to Gosport in July 1875. George joins the Depot of the 80th Foot on 06/06/1875.  
Mad WHICH WOULD MAKE HIS BIRTHDAY APRIL 6, 1857, AND MY GEORGE 12 YEARS, 8 MONTHS!!! No

Some good may of come from the research as, working backward a George Hughes Service #1644 "re-engages for service with the 2nd Battalion West Riding Regiment at Aldershot Dec 17, 1885  
BUT I CAN NOT FIND ANY ENLISTMENT PAPERS FOR HIM.
OR WHAT UNIT HE MAY OF BEEN FROM BEFORE?
(This 1644 George matches may of the correct Genealogy information that I had on my Great Grand Father George. British Army, Duke of Wellington West Riding Reg, Nova Scotia to Barbados to Boston, Mass. ) George 1644 is NOT present in the following muster in September 1890 so must have been discharged by that point.

Which would put me back at square one, for older killed brother John Hughes Born: between April 8, 1857 to April 6, 1858, Paddington, Middlesex England. Always thought if I could find George & John together, good chance I had the right one, John #1499 killed at Intomi 12/03/1879, 80th, which he was with George 525 in the 1878 Returns of Remittances Effects and credits 80th Reg of Foot Oct – Dec 1878.

Other candidates with closer birth dates:

There is also a George Service number 660 Attestation Sept 5, 1883 Age 20 – months (Would make a birthdate of Sept 1863) My George born Sept 1862
WO97 Chelsea pensioners’ British army service records 1760-1913 Box 3106 Record 33

John Hughes birth 1858 Birmingham Warwickshire Eng Service number 721 Regiment 64th
Attestation Oct 30, 1876 at Aldershot Oct 26, 1876 Age 18, 5 months (Would make a birth date of May 26, 1858) My John FROM THE CENSUS TAKEN ON April 7, 1861 Census:  3 years old: Born between April 8th 1857 to April 6, 1858
For the 20 brigade West Brommick
WO97 Chelsea pensioner’s British army service records 1760-1913 Box 3107 Record 111

Thank you!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:22 am

Mr Hughes your avata, is that the man in-question?
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JHughes

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PostSubject: Re: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:36 am

littlehand wrote:
Mr Hughes your avata, is that the man in-question?

yes, avata is George Hughes, in a sea shell lined picture frame, with the work "Barbados" on the back :)

Zooming in on the picture, it is the 2nd West Riding Regiment emblem from his time with ‘F’ Company at Halifax, Nova Scotia 1886ish -1890ish

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]http://www.britisharmedforces.org/pages/nat_helmet_badges.htm
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:44 am

Mr Hughes

What document do you have regimental number #1644 recorded on? Another problem is that the series of numbering wihtin regiments changed on 1 July 1881 - this only affected soldiers enlisting or re-listing after this date. Otherwise soldiers serving at that date retained their pre-1881 number. Your man may have two numbers. Your researcher appears not to consulted the regimental pay & muster rolls - although these rolls ceased for most regiments in about 1882. You seem to be overwhelmed with options which may have confused you and tended to lead you down false paths. I have to say there is nothing like doing the research yourself, many documents have not been scanned, but living in Virginia Beach this may be a tall order and you may waste one or two days getting used to the ways of the National Archives at Kew.

In your photograph, George Hughes does not appear to be wearing any campaign medals - so it indicates that he did not serve in AZW.
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JHughes

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PostSubject: Re: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:30 pm

Hi Kenny,
George Hughes #1644 was first presented to me as "George re-engages for service with the 2nd Battalion West Riding Regiment at Aldershot Dec 17, 1885, his numbered as #1644" but provided no documentation (Thus i couldn't confirm his date of birth to compare to my George). However, First document I have is the 2nd West Riding regimental pay list dated 1885 Oct Aldershot. Following to Pay lists to Oct 1887-Mar 1888.

I'm not sure if my George Hughes received the metal, George #525 did, or if they are required to wear. If his brother John was killed in one of these campaigns, he may not of took it physically. This may of also been why he left the Army between 1883 to Oct 1885. George 525 went to "Army Reserve".
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:45 pm

Forgive me for saying - you appear to be trying to fit a story around your George Hughes. You have to start with what you do know for certain.

Firstly soldiers in those days were ordered to wear their medals - so in a formal photo session in uniform he would have worn his medals. Your soldier is not wearing any. This tells you that he was not involved in any medal earning campaign - this means that you can really discount some of the information from your researcher.

The number #1644 is probably post 1881 - West Riding - Duke of Wellington's Regiment. Prior to 1881 - 2nd West Riding was 76th Foot - so he may had a previous number in 76th Foot or 1873 Brigade series assuming he was serving prior to 1881. There may not be any personal documents at Kew in WO97 series because he was a short service soldier.

Now if the family story is that he served in South Africa in 1879 - he could have volunteered for active service and transferred for the duration of the campaign - with a regiment who did serve in the AZW. He would have been temporarily allocated a number in that regiment - the pay/muster rolls or the medal roll may note the fact that he was originally from 76th Foot. But that does not overcome the fact that there are no medals on the photo. So trying find a link with the Anglo-Zulu war might be a wrong path to follow.

You may best start with trying to find the actual locations of 76th Foot - 2nd West Riding R for the period 1875-1889 from the Regimental Archives in Halifax, Yorkshire. Army documents of that period only give 'age on enlistment' (which may not be accurate, i.e. 17 years old often gave 18 years to receive adult pay) - there are no dates of birth shown.
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JHughes

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PostSubject: Re: George Hughes Service # 525 vs George Hughes Service #1644   Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:26 pm

Hi Kenny,
Absolutely, however the only leads I have are "family rumors", since George is long gone, and all I ever had to go on was a newspaper article that was full of inaccurate/false information.

Example: I know for a fact he was born in Kings Norton, Birmingham, England Sept. 26, 1862, Article reads he was born in Benares, India Sept 26, 1862. And his father was a "Brewers Laborer" when he was born!

Just like you said, "start with what you know for certain"
Certain Death Certificate with age and address, led to 22 Perry st. Boston, Massachusetts, Census which led me to Marriage that named his Father John, and mother Mary Hiscock, which confirmed his wife was from Nova Scotia, (Where they rumored to have met) where he was serving in Duke of Wellington Reg, Halifax, which led to his Emigration paperwork the named same 9/26/62 BD, and location of Kings Norton, which I obtain his Birth Certificate.

But for his term in the Army, nothing but that picture, false article and rumors.  
Thought my odds of finding the correct George would increase if I found him with his older Brother John, rumored to have been killed in the "Boer War", but only a George and John Hughes (killed at Intombi South Africa 12/3/79)

That's why I started working backward from what I knew for certain (Paid research) that led me to a George Hughes #1644 to prove (Or disprove) its him, in Nova Scotia.  But he is a excellent candidate, right time, right location.  

Here is that article I took from his son's house:

Provincial Grand Master Massachusetts District.
Newspaper article: unknown, date between 1917 and 1938:

      The subject of our sketch this month will appeal strongly to our members at this time because of his military career.  Born in Benares, East India, September 26, 1862, while his father was serving in the English army. Brother Hughes was brought up in the environment of army life and so we find him joining the South Staffordshire regiment as a drummer boy in 1876 at the age of fourteen years, and seeing active service under Lord Roberts in 1878 and 1879 in India.  From there, he went to Egypt under command of Sir Garnet Woolsley's in 1882.  In 1885 he re-enlisted in the 76th Hindoostan regiment and completed his service with this famous company.  

Brother Hughes joined the Manchester Unity in 1880, being initiated into the Good Intent Lodge, Burton on Trent, England.  Coming to the United States some years ago we find him connecting himself with Thistle Lodge, No. 7470, of Somerville, Mass., and still retains his membership there.  It was in Somerville where Brother Hughes became an active worker for the order and made himself so popular with his fellow members, and he still holds their confidence and respect.  Brother Hughes is a janitor by occupation and has charge of a large apartment house in Brookline, so when a new lodge was mooted in this most aristocratic Boston suburb, our good brother was called in and made P. S. of Brookline Lodge, NO. 9226, and still occupies this position. Thus we find him a member of a lodge in one city and the P.S. of another lodge in another city, and enjoying the confidence of both.  

     Brother Hughes was elected Prov. Master, May 9, 1917.  As our good brother is a member of a small lodge, the problem of the small lodge attracts his attention and he has given much of his time and ability to helping the smaller lodges in his district.  Just ten days after his election as Provincial Grand Master, the brothers of Thistle lodge did him honor by giving him a reception and presenting him with a handsome clock suitably in scribed, in their lodge rooms at Somerville.  At the same time a delegation attended from the local lodge of the Knights of Pythias, of which he is a member and presented him a handsome bouquet of roses, as a tribute of their good will.  The affair was further honored by the attendance of Grand Master Handford, of the Grand Lodge, and the entire Board of Mass.  District Officers.  Brother Hughes is in the prime of life and with his devotion to the order there is no doubt we will find him for many years to come helping the small lodges work out their own difficult problems

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