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Brev. Lt-Col. R.H. Buller, VC, Staff: 2/60th KRRC-Zungwini,Hlobane, Khambula, Ulundi
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Anglo-Zulu war: Walking the battlefield of Kambula
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 6:56 am

Hi,

The following assumes that the body with the rope around his neck, was a fact.

I am currently in conversation on another forum about the skeleton found with a rope around its neck at Isandlwana.

I believe the discovery was made in June 1879 by Majors Black's party and was published in Mainwarrings account of events (in 1895) - but I may be wrong....

This fellow has always been associated with the 'cave' soldier - though I find this spurious, myself and I am not too concerned with the cave bit of the scenario.

The basic debate is - did some British get captured alive at Isandlwana, obviously some answers may be in Julian's 'Essays 5', so replies on this forum may be 'redacted'. I personally believe it was very possible

I struggle to think of a concrete reason why the Zulus would put a rope around the neck of a dead British soldier - other than to drag him out of the cave (but this still seems a little bit of effort to go and find a rope etc, when he could probably have been dragged out by an arm or whatever). However, I am not familiar with the terrain around (or access to) 'the cave' - nor in fact which cave it was (if the cave incident actually happened).

However there seems only one reason why a rope was put round the neck of a live soldier.

Cheers

Simon
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1986
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 22

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 10:34 am

I never understood why the solider with nope round his neck was linked to the cave solider, he was shot by Zulus. Why would they drag his body out to put rope round it, or why would they carry rope up to the cave.


Makes sense it was around a live soldier.

Cheers
Sam
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 10:40 am

Hi DB,

I think the theory was that after he was shot, they couldn't get him from his cave (the current favoured one is one you have to lie down it at the back - I believe), so to get him out, to try and rob any ammo (or whatever) or perform their rituals, they got a rope from somewhere (maybe the camp) and tied it round him to drag him out........

Not sure myself......

Ta

Sime
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2146
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 11:16 am

SRB
Correction: "Julian and Frederic's essay 5"
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 11:42 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
SRB
Correction: "Julian and Frederic's essay 5"

Of course, sorry Frederic......
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2146
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 1:29 pm

SRB
Of course, that's fine! I was just making a point really. Fred's contribution to the essay in vol. IV was massive - in thinking, research, and in content - it is important to me that he should receive an equal share in the credit for it. The same is true in the vol. V essay...as you will see!
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 4:30 pm


Patrone morientium membris mutiletur
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 5:26 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:

Patrone morientium membris mutiletur

Thanks to Google - "Dying mutilation"......

So therefore 'alive' when the rope was attached? But how alive?
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2852
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 5:40 pm

Agonising over a latin phrase that neither party used at the time is a bit of a waste of effort. To my mind, the traditional explanation that the Zulu needed to perform cleansing rituals on those they had killed is surely sufficient reason for them to have extracted the body from a difficult location using a rope.

Steve Reinstadtler
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2146
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 6:24 pm

Or possibly NOT a rope but a halter...which ended up not being required...
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 7:02 pm

Agonising over a latin phrase that neither party used at the time is a bit of a waste of effort, errr
what!. not so Steve.. sorry Sime.. not part of your original question.. but as Julian ref studies 4/5
i thought i would issue a teaser as part of my reply addressing the mutilation question (s).. till i
get a grip of 5 i will keep my powder dry so to speak. i don't throw away latin phrases lightly. as
said the context will be provided at a later date. to form part of the bigger picture.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm

rusteze wrote:
Agonising over a latin phrase that neither party used at the time is a bit of a waste of effort. To my mind, the traditional explanation that the Zulu needed to perform cleansing rituals on those they had killed is surely sufficient reason for them to have extracted the body from a difficult location using a rope.

Steve Reinstadtler

Hi Steve/Julian

I'm not really agonising over much at all at the moment....apart from our family car being wrote-off yesterday but Les posted a phrase, I dunno where he got it from, Google told me what it meant.....

However back to your point, if all bodies were mutilated, yes I wouldn't agree more....but I believe some bodies were not mutilated, so I am not convinced the idea of mutilation was universally observed......

Julian: Sorry but I do not want to be thick but I'm not quite sure what the difference is between a rope & a halter......especially when it around a (potentially) live persons neck.....what other purpose could it have....

Maybe one day Frank or 90th can carry out an experiment and lie lifeless in 'the cave' whilst someone tries to pull them out......(of course without the use of a ropey halter - that may be going too far)

Cheers

Sime
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2852
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 9:36 pm

Sorry to hear about the car Sime. I suppose that if it had been a halter rope it might indicate that the individual was attempting to catch a horse and so aid escape? Another thought - a pistol lanyard minus pistol?

Steve
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 9:46 pm

Thanks Steve, fortunately my wife was unharmed (shook up and upset but unharmed) - which is the important thing......I told the kids that "we can get a new car but new mummy's are harder to come by" - they are still whinging about having to walk to school...that's kids I spose....

I have often thought about it being an lanyard but I would assume that the finders would have recognised it for what it was and mentioned him being an officer.....

cheers anyway, Steve

Sime
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2852
Join date : 2010-06-02

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySat Mar 24, 2018 9:57 pm

Apparently Mainwaring asked a doctor whether the skeleton was a white or black man - he said white. But that rather implies that there was no proof it was a soldier - what equipment might a voorloper or mulateer have had?

Steve
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySun Mar 25, 2018 12:09 am

what equipment might a voorloper or mulateer have had? remark's Steve..
Voorloper..
A whip, length's of rope.. ( knee haltering ) a big stick.. can't think of any -
thing else
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ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 3854
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 60
Location : KENT

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySun Mar 25, 2018 3:07 am

SRB1965 wrote:
Hi,

The following assumes that the body with the rope around his neck, was a fact.

I am currently in conversation on another forum about the skeleton found with a rope around its neck at Isandlwana.

I believe the discovery was made in June 1879 by Majors Black's party and was published in Mainwarrings account of events (in 1895) - but I may be wrong....

This fellow has always been associated with the 'cave' soldier - though I find this spurious, myself and I am not too concerned with the cave bit of the scenario.

The basic debate is - did some British get captured alive at Isandlwana, obviously some answers may be in Julian's 'Essays 5', so replies on this forum may be 'redacted'. I personally believe it was very possible

I struggle to think of a concrete reason why the Zulus would put a rope around the neck of a dead British soldier - other than to drag him out of the cave (but this still seems a little bit of effort to go and find a rope etc, when he could probably have been dragged out by an arm or whatever). However, I am not familiar with the terrain around (or access to) 'the cave' - nor in fact which cave it was (if the cave incident actually happened).

However there seems only one reason why a rope was put round the neck of a live soldier.

Cheers

Simon

There is an account somewhere on the forum, where bodies of British soldiers were found at Isandlwana with their hands bound behind their backs.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 686
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Skeleton & rope? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Skeleton & rope?   Skeleton & rope? EmptySun Mar 25, 2018 5:03 am

Thanks, I will have to try to track it down

Cheers

Sime
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