WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film. Chard: The army doesn’t like more than one disaster in a day.Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Photo of 6th Dragoons Mess Tent, Eshowe -- help identifying?
The Western Slopes EmptyToday at 12:13 am by John Young

» Private James Chick
The Western Slopes EmptyYesterday at 10:19 pm by Bill8183

» 2nd Corpl W.COCKELL, A.S.Corps Medal
The Western Slopes EmptyTue Aug 20, 2019 3:24 pm by 1879graves

» 2nd Lt David Dickson. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 
The Western Slopes EmptyThu Aug 15, 2019 10:34 pm by John

» Royal Engineers at Isandhlwana
The Western Slopes EmptyWed Aug 14, 2019 10:37 pm by rusteze

» Lieutenant Edward Fenwick Brackenbury, Royal Artillery
The Western Slopes EmptyTue Aug 13, 2019 9:24 pm by John Young

» The Natal Carbineers pass into History
The Western Slopes EmptyMon Aug 12, 2019 3:58 pm by Frank Allewell

» Rorkes Drift Battle Relics
The Western Slopes EmptySat Aug 10, 2019 4:17 pm by SRB1965

» Medals to the Natal Mounted Police
The Western Slopes EmptyWed Aug 07, 2019 3:01 pm by Victorian Dad

» Zulu Statements
The Western Slopes EmptySun Aug 04, 2019 12:54 pm by ADMIN

» Adding to the Library
The Western Slopes EmptySat Aug 03, 2019 2:17 pm by rusteze

» Victorian Technology
The Western Slopes EmptySat Aug 03, 2019 6:36 am by Richie

» Map wanted
The Western Slopes EmptyThu Aug 01, 2019 12:32 pm by John Young

» 140th Celebrations
The Western Slopes EmptyTue Jul 30, 2019 10:36 am by John Young

» Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd
The Western Slopes EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 5:00 pm by Frank Allewell

Brev. Lt-Col. R.H. Buller, VC, Staff: 2/60th KRRC-Zungwini,Hlobane, Khambula, Ulundi
The Western Slopes BullerBrev.[Mac and Shad] (Isandula Collection)
Anglo-Zulu war: Walking the battlefield of Kambula
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
littlehand
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
ADMIN
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
1879graves
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
rusteze
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
John
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
impi
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
John Young
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
SRB1965
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
cattailrun
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
1879graves
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
rusteze
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
90th
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Blackdog67
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Dunmore
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Kenny
The Western Slopes Bar_leftThe Western Slopes BarThe Western Slopes Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share
 

 The Western Slopes

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyTue Apr 16, 2019 10:13 am

Archibald Forbes wrote probably the most compelling and emotional description of the battlefield at iSandlwana describing the bodies along the Fugitives trail as ‘a long string with knots in it.’
Forbes had joined the expedition on the 21st May ,led by General Marshall, to bury the dead at iSandlwana and retrieve  the much-needed wagons from the camp. A large force set of early in the morning splitting into two divisions, one approaching from the North and the second, including Forbes, along the traders track and across the Manzimyama stream.
He. In great detail describes the approach up the slope towards the saddle and the Fugitives trail of to the right.
“The line of retreat towards Fugitives Drift, along which, through a chink in the Zulu environment, our unfortunate, who thus far survived, tried to escape, lay athwart a rocky slope on our right front, along with a precipitous ravine at its base. In this ravine dead men lay thick, mere bones, with toughened discolored skin like leather covering them, and clinging tight to them, the flesh all wasted away. Some were almost wholly dismembered, heaps of yellow, clammy bones. I forbear to describe the faces with their blackened features and beards bleached by the rain and sun. Every man had been disemboweled. Some were scalped, and others subject to yet ghastlier mutilations. The clothes had lasted better than the poor bodies they covered, and helped to keep the skeletons together. All the way up the slope I traced by the ghastly token of dead men, the fitful line of flight. Most of the men hereabouts were infantry of the 24th. It was like a long string with knots in it, the string formed of single corpses, the knots clusters of dead where (as it seemed) little groups might have gathered to make a hopeless stand and die. I came on a gully with a gun limber jammed on its edge, and the horses, their hide scored with scored with assegai stabs, hanging in their harness down the steep face of the ravine. A little further on was the broken and battered ambulance wagon, and around lay the corpses of the soldiers’ poor helpless wretches, dragged out of an intercepted vehicle, and done to death without a chance for life.
Still following the trail of bodies through the long grass and amongst stones I approached the crest. Here the slaughtered ones lay very thick, so that the string became a broad belt.”

There is no ambiguity about the description of the route taken by Forbes, along the area track. He is specific in mentioning the long grass so the question needs to be asked: How far along the slope could he actually see  through the long grass with any degree of clarity? Are the sights he describes truly in the distance or are they close to the road.
It’s an important question because it places a line of flight away from the traditional fugitive’s trail sloping of towards the South. It also places a line of retreat taken by a fighting force trying to follow the line of the road towards Rorkes Drift. There are no recorded cairns along that route? And yet Forbes is descriptive in his accuracy including his description of horses dangling in their traces. From the road the oft referred to crevasse  is invisible and so conjecturally would be the horses. He would have had to have journeyed down the trail for any sign of that deep fold in the ground.
Is his statement therefore a conflated account? Or were there bodies along the line of the track, if there were why are there no cairns in the area? Traditionally the first cairns are those just to the West of the saddle.
Lieut. William Whitelock Lloyd, a talented artist took the trouble to climb Shiyane above Rorkes Drift and viewing through a telescope painted the scene looking across at the Nek between iSandlwana and Mahlabamkosi.  This remarkable painting shows the original approach road over the Nek and the extensive erosion and dongas prevalent. The donga to the South of the road in particular appears very deep and could easily be the site of wagons coming to grief.
A number of years ago I located a photograph in the archives at Pietermaritzburg. The photo taken from the area of the Manziyama indicates a significant number of large cairns. I’ve since traversed that area and discovered what could be the remnants of those cairns.
In trying to trace the origins of the cairns I looked at the Alfred boast map, difficult to read, but even so there are no cairns so marked.
I turned to the 1944 aerial photos and while there is a possibility they are shown, it is a possibility rather than a probability. What those photos do show however is the position of the old track. They also show the huge amount of cultivation in the area to the West of the mountain with a myriad of fields and a number of imusi.
So, who could have been the occupants of those cairns? If we are to believe Forbes hasn’t conflated his account there would have been a string of bodies stretching from the saddle down to the Manzimyama. If, as I believe, his description is conflated and there were no bodies along the track then it would seem to point to a force, extensive force, fighting a fairly successful retreat down the slope from the saddle only to meet their fate at the bottom of that slope.
This then would beg the question as to why Boast didn’t include the cairns on his map? A possible answer would be that as they were off to the right of the track, possibly hidden in the undergrowth, and no where close to the Fugitives route, that they simply weren’t seen. The potential for that would be great, Russell’s force would be an example only being discovered much later.
There were a number of subsequent teams sent to the battlefields and it could be speculated that one of them located and buried the remains.
The next question would be of course who was this body of men? A possible clue could be found in Edward Durnford’s book ‘A Soldiers Life and Work in South Africa. 1872 to 1879, A memoir of the late Colonel A.W.Durnford’ (p234).
He quotes Inspector George Mansell NMP saying “ Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine, with about 40 men of the 24th was seen about 800 yards on the Natal side of the Nek,” and  by Captain Cracroft Nourse NNC, “and near this spot were afterwards found about 40 men in the bed of the stream, and no doubt it was those very men. They had been killed close together, and one body was very like Pullein’s, but nobody could recognize it for certain.”

Umhotii speaks of the ‘main body being forced along and over the road until they met up with another impi and being maneuvered down towards the Manzimyama.

There are many sightings, or reputed sightings, of Col Pulleine’s body:

Colonel Hamilton Browne NNC in ‘A Lost Legionary in South Africa’ pp.140-142

“I had just time to get  to the door of my tent…my camp was on the extreme left of the line…I had not time to dismount as I heard the bugle sound the advance and I galloped back to my men as fast as I could without trampling on the bodies of my poor comrades.  On my way I reined up my horse sharply, for there lay the body of my old friend Lieut.-Col. Pulleine; I could do nothing for him…so I saluted the poor remains and passed on as quickly as I could to my men.  When I reached them, I asked the Adjutant if any orders had reached us.  He replied, “No, sir.  Everyone has moved off except ourselves and the rear-guard of M.I. which Major Black has taken command of.”  Good old Black, I thought, always at the post of honour.  Well he rode up to me and asked me “What was I doing there?”  I said, “Waiting for orders.”  He made a few remarks in Gaelic and then said, “Come on, old fellow.  Move off just in front of me, and if these black devils come after us we will have a nice little rear-guard action of our own.”  I did so, and sorrowfully returned by the same road we had so gaily advanced along three days before.”

Trooper Charles Tatham, NC (burial party) from “Hill of the Sphinx”, p.76
”We found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial soldiers (who had fallen back on the camp and rallied round the former), Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers who made the last stand. I saw the bodies of both these officers...”.  

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Captain C. Nourse, 1/1 NNC(Natal Witness  18 or 19 January 1929)
-”The guns, which I had thought had escaped, horses and men, were all dead, huddled in a donga. The last and most pathetic sight was half about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets”.

So a number of differing accounts of Pulleine's body being found, all of which have questioned attached.

Hamilton Browne places the body between his tent on the extreme North of the camp and the point he rejoined his men. The night of the 22nd his men were assigned a position close under iSandlwana and during the morning were formed up ready to move of with the rest of the column. He doesn’t mention where this long stream of men were formed up but as a rear point anchored on the west of the saddle the stream could have easily reached much lower down the slope. Behind his men were the NMP rearguard.
In his diary Maxwell is specific in saying they were all out of camp “before objects could be clearly seen.” The possibility does therefore exist that Hamilton Browne’s sighting area could be increased from the Northern Camp to the Manzimyama area.
If Maxwell is to be believed would that not therefore throw doubt on Hamilton Browne’s sighting of Pulleine’s body close to the camp? Credence should be given that in returning to his men Hamilton Browne saw the body at the latest, and lightest point in order for it to be recognisable, along the Western slope in fact.

Again, popular history has led us to believe that this force was commanded by Anstey, a theory that has been compellingly repudiated in recent publications. So, who did lead that force and exactly which direction where they moved into by the two horns of the Zulu army?
From the top of Shiyane at Rorkes drift a part of the battle was witnessed by  the Rev.Otto Witt, Rev George Smith and Surgeon James Reynolds.
“I observed that the Zulus were fighting heavily, and presently I saw the English were surrounded in a kraal some distance from the camp.”
From Shiyane there is no view of the iSandlwana plain or the camp area so the kraal mentioned by Rev Witt could only have been on the Natal/Western face of iSandlwana.
In the map drawn by Captain Anstey for the Narrative there are two kraals indicated, one either side of the track on the western face in a direct line from iSandlwana to the Manzimyama crossing.
Both of these kraals are visible on the 1944 aerial survey photos and remains of one still exists.
The available evidence seems to point to a large force fighting their way down the slope and across the Manzimyama before succumbing to the Zulu force. The position of its retreat and demise is parallel to the line of the road and Its position fits well with the comments of Nourse and Mansell.
Traditionally most, if not all, conclusions from the above quotes have been assumed to be referring to the so-called Anstey last stand further South from this position. The Anstey body position has recently been called into question with a good case being made that he wasn’t initially buried on the Manzimyama. There was however a significant stand made in that Southern Position. It’s possible that acknowledged history is correct and all these quotes do refer to this particular stand. My question therefore would:

If  Conditions where right for Anstey’s and Pulleines bodies to be recognized at that point, why is it referred to as Anstey’s last stand instead of Pulleines?

Grateful thanks to Julian Fred and Steve for their assistance. The concept is mine and mine alone so any spears or war clubs that need to thrown must be directed firmly at me.

Criticism:
In the whole range of literature nothing is more entertaining and instructive than sound and legitimate criticism. Rev Caleb Colton.


Thanks to Steve for posting the photos. In the today picture Ive only indicated the general area of the cairns.


Last edited by Frank Allewell on Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2870
Join date : 2010-06-02

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyTue Apr 16, 2019 11:03 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2870
Join date : 2010-06-02

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyTue Apr 16, 2019 6:11 pm

Nice piece of detective work Frank. I am tempted to add another layer around the question of Pulleine's and Durnford's actions. We know that once Durnford had realised that he was being outflanked on both the right and the left he returned briefly to the tents - we do not know why. Slightly earlier he had asked whether it would be possible to bring some infantry in behind him to give some cover - now that it was becoming ever more desperate, did he return to the tents to seek out Pulleine and arrange for the two of them to try and keep open a final route over the neck? Pulleine rallies the remaining 24th that are streaming back through the camp and makes a stand on the neck. Younghusband with C Coy. is up above him nearer the mountain - he eventually charges down to join the larger group. Meanwhile Durnford and the Carbineers have fallen back again to a point on the east side of the neck and there they make their stand. Speculation of course but for me it is more credible than Pulleine expiring in his tent.

Steve
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyWed Apr 17, 2019 6:59 pm

Hi Frank,

As you may remember I raised the point of the ‘kraal fight’ and what Witt saw, a while ago and you sent me the 1940s aerial photos to study.

It would seem to me all about the timing of the arrival of the Right Horn – conventionally, it is said to have arrived just as the British were retreating from the Zulu Centre & Left onto the saddle – sort of the final nail in the coffin, forcing the survivors behind Blacks Kopie, along the Fugitives Trail.

However, had it been slower in turning up, some of the retreating British could have been heading down the Western slope towards the stream. This may tie in with Shepstones stand at the rear of the hill.
As for HBPs demise – I recall Melvill or Coghill saying that “Pulleine’s been shot”......but I cannot recall to whom (I thought it was Private Williams but I can’t find it in my account) - which may give a clue as to where he may have at least been wounded if not killed.

On the subject of guns – one crashed into the ravine but where was the other brought to a halt?

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu Apr 18, 2019 6:45 am

Morning Simon
Your right there was a meeting, M and C witnessed I think by two others where a statement that "The Colonel has been shot." I need to check that but I do have a feeling that it was 'Colonel' not Pulleine. That could then refer to Durnford, there was also a seperate mention of Durnford 'being shot'.
One of the guns ( carriages?) was found out on the plain, obviously being taken away but from whence it came I dont know. I would assume that the two were retreating in close tandem. Unfortunatly my study is a 'crime scene' due to some affirmative action shopping and I cant get access. The place is a bloody shambles.
I think that there is also the possibility that a great many of the fugitives had allready departed the scene, chased by the right horn, the left having been held up by Durnford and Scott could possible then have been a tad late in trying to close the gap and in doing so arrived on the western saddle just in time to closed that avenue of to the '40' and forcing them down to the manzimyama. The right horn at that point having been well and truly split: Portion entering the camp, portion up the mountain chasing Shepstone, portion running along the manzimyama chasing fugitives. The balance facing the saddle.
Just a thought.

cheers
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu Apr 18, 2019 4:12 pm

Hi Frank,

I have read the quote about Durnford being shot and wondered if it was he that was the 'Colonel' and I was getting mixed up

Williams says:-

Lieutenant Coghill galloped up to Colonel Glyn's tents and gave orders for them to be struck and placed in the wagon which was done, when he came up again and ordered the grooms to take the horses to the rear part of the Camp.

I then saw Lieutenant Melvill leaving Camp with the Queen's Colour and Lieutenant Coghill close behind him; the latter told me to come on or I should get killed; just then the two guns of the R.A. retreated out of Camp past me and I could see the men on foot who had attempted to escape turned back and coming into Camp.


Would M or C have known that Durnford had been shot - given that he was over by the Blacks Kopie (where the memorial is now?) and you would assume that they were with or near the 24th and possibly close to HBP. Also would they have referred to AWD as 'the colonel'?

According to (albeit modern) painting I have seen, Glyn's HQ (and 'his' tent?) was roughly in the rear centre of the camp.

It also involves the old question of when did Melvill collect the colours from the 24th camp, it implies that he had collected them from the 1st/24th camp, took them to the area of the firing line and the back through the camp past Glyns HQ during which time Williams was told to 'do one'

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu Apr 18, 2019 4:32 pm

ps it was Bickley who recalled the conversation between M&C and he definitely says Colonel Pulleine's been shot but unfortunately he appears to have been over the saddle (this is not an innuendo but referring to the location..... Very Happy ), when this conversation happened, so it does not help out with the location of HBP being killed.

Sime
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri Apr 19, 2019 10:13 am

Hi Sime
Mainwaring in his account seems to re inforce Maxwell in his assesment of the visual conditions. His company was rearguard and he commented that "we never saw very far round on account of the dense fog.
One of the last sightings of Durnford was I think by, Harry Davies who placed him in the area of the RA camp, directly below the command tents. So entirely possible that Coghill did see him, however your quite right the reference was to Pulleine. Unfortunatly we will never know, barring a miracle, where Pulleine was. We do know that Coghill passed the command area 3 times, issuing orders to John Williams on each occasion so that would lead to the conclusion that Pulleine wasnt in that area. We also know that at one point Brickhill went looking for him. Its very probable then that Pulleine would have been down on the firing line, the question then would be if Coghill would have been with him or not. Or even did Coghill merely hear that Pulleine was shot?
Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 03, 2019 8:50 am

It could of course be that Bickley overheard Coghill telling Melvill that that the Colonel had been shot and 'assumed' he meant Pulleine when in fact he was referring to Durnford.
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 03, 2019 6:16 pm

Hi Julian,

Yes I suppose so, however at some point I feel you have to trust the sources - otherwise we know or actually believe nothing about the battle or history in general.

In reality, Coghill could have been passing comment on HBPs battlefield ability or tactics and said "the Colonel's been sh*t" and poor old Bickers though he said "shot"......

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 03, 2019 7:35 pm

Sime? Sorry mate just cant stop laughing.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 04, 2019 8:45 am

Simon
That's true but we nevertheless have to be careful.  Trusting the source is always dependent on the nature of the source and the nature of the comment.  And of course inthis case it's a second-hand comment.
An ordinary OR recalling what he remembered or thought he heard within a day or two of the event rather than what might be factual or of import is one thing.  A first-hand statement with a specific fact from an NNC commandant 30 years later is another.
There are primary sources and there are primary sources.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 7:02 am

It is worth reiterating the reasons why the 'stand at the Manzimnyama' was always assumed to have been Anstey's and why it could not have been (in order to dispel any doubts).  The logic is conclusive.

David Jackson actually wrote that:

1. Black buried Anstey surrounded by his men (source: Anstey Family Papers, unprovenanced but uncontroverisal)
2. “Lieut. Anstey gained the Manzamjama” (source MS 1/24th Records, unprovenanced and controversial)

Naturally David married up these two pieces of evidence and came to the assumption that Anstey reached and was buried on the Manzimnyama.  Ian Knight and many others have made the same assumption.  But David (and the others) never found:

(A) the Telegraph correspondent’s report (24.6.79) saying Black found a group of bodies in the rear of 1/24th camp including Anstey’s,
(B) 2nd Lieut. Armitage’s letter (2.8.79) saying it was him who found and buried Anstey’s body,
(C) Sergt. Tigar’s letter (30.6.79) saying it was him who identified Anstey in the left rear of the 1/24th camp among 68 bodies, and
(D) Anstey’s father’s letter (21.4.79) saying it was Armitage that took Anstey’s brother to the spot where his brother was buried to disinter him.

These provide a conclusive and logical chain of evidence which prove Anstey did NOT gain the Manzimnyama and was NOT buried there.  

Who knows who put the Manzamjama note in the 1/24th Records and why?  It has no basis in fact.  It was clearly a red herring and has misled many historians.

The evidence stacks up on its being Pulleine's Stand on the Manzimnyama.  Certainly not Anstey's.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 7:51 am

Pulleins Stand Julian? Do we discount Glynn and Hamilton Brown? Both sighted his body on the 22nd/23rd.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 8:34 am

Frank
Yes, Pulleine's Stand! Both H-B and Glyn's reports would not go against endorsing Pulleine having been among that group of men. Do you now think otherwise?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 9:34 am

Its a topography issue. from the columns line of retreat, along the track, the 'stand' is around a kilometer South along the Manzimyama. Even with the lack of vegetation at that time I doubt that the bodies would have been visible from the track, most certainly not sufficiently to identify an individual. I would fully support the concept of Pullein leading a group away from the carnage to an eventual stand, just not in that direction.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 9:36 am

A thought for Admin.
Would it not be possible to create a 'button' that would pop up a topographical map, possibly from Google Earth, that could readily be accessed to explain points such as above?

Just a thought.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 10:09 am

Bonjour,

Milne's report implies that Pulleine's body was found in the perimiter of the camp (or very near of it) and not on the banks of the Manzimyama river.
Milne wrote that Pulleine's body was found BEFORE the departure for Rorke's drift.
« Colonel Glyn and several men went into the camp next morning before we started for Rorke's Drift. The former recoignised Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson [sic]".
Cheers
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 11:20 am

Well, I must think again, it seems, regarding whether there was an officer with the Manzimnyama stand.
If there was, it was still certainly NOT Anstey. And according to Frank and Fred not Pulleine.
One thing does occur to me and that is that there would have been nigh on a thousand men (1/3rd NNC etc, some mounted) standing to the west of the saddle waiting to depart in the early morning of the 23rd. They must have covered a large area of ground - that kilometre you mentioned Frank might easily be swallowed up in such a crowd and the unviewable made viewable. Just a thought.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 12:48 pm

In "Isandlwana, The Bitter Zulu Victory", Carlos Roca wrote:
"The body of Quartermaster General Pullen was lying over an empty ammunition box..." (p.53).
Unfortunately, he does not give a source for this remark...
Cheers
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 1:55 pm

I wonder why.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young

Posts : 1906
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 63
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 2:17 pm

That’s a new casualty to me Quartermaster General Pullen, I wonder if he was in any way related to Quartermaster James Pullen? Joker Joker Joker

JY
Back to top Go down
Online
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 6:37 am

Hi

Maybe the last stand on the Manzimnyama was not attributable to anyone known but was just a gathering on men as a result of impassable terrain.

I often why 'last stands' have to be someones......just because an officer was in a 'stand' - military historians, wargamers, even regimental histories always seem to attribute the last stand to them (usually the most senior officer in the group), i.e. as if that officer started it all.

If (as in one scenario I have read) Durnford (and others of course) opted to stay at a specific point and hold off the Zulus to keep the Saddle open or someone trying to turn the left horn (can't remember maybe Pullen....) - well fine, that was a military action designed to achieve an objective.

It may not in reality be the truth but I have always thought/assumed that (according to GHB - albeit written many years later), he visited his former tent and on the way back to the Saddle/his command he saw the body of HBP, so that only gives us almost the whole of the British camp to think about.

Cheers

Sime

Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 9975
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 63
Location : Melbourne, Australia

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: The Western Slopes    The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 7:07 am

Hi Sime
I certainly believe an Officer , or Officers , along with NCO's were responsible for getting the last of the organised resistance down Fugitives , couldn't have been done if no-one was in command , the land is atrocious . I believe last stands are attributed to the Officer who is in command of the said group of men , as he invariably got the men in a cohesive group to where they died .
90th
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 7:41 am

Hi Gary,

I dunno, humans seek safety in numbers (the herd mentality), if flight is not possible.....it is always referred to as 'fight or flight' but I feel (being an inherent coward) that the phrase should be 'flight or fight'

It was notoriously hard to prevent skirmishers grouping together during (particularly close range) combat and equally as hard to get troops (especially irregulars) to rally.

Look at your old mate, Custer - troopers from various units migrated (or tried to migrate) towards Last Stand Hill, but they would have tried to get there if my Granny was at the centre of the group.....safety in numbers - they probably didn't even know if GAC was alive (if you read some NA accounts he probably wasn't or at least may not have been functional)

To me its that fact that the path to the Manzimnyama was so bad that caused the stand.....rather than someone yawping "we shall stand here men and sell our lives dearly" (or whatever)......

Reckon we'll never know......

Sime


Last edited by SRB1965 on Fri May 10, 2019 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 7:53 am

The route from the saddle down to the Southern part of the Manzimyama is to put it mildly a 'bitch'. To get a cohesive group down there with men falling left right and centre would require some body taking charge, somebody with authority enough that it wouldn't become an everyman for himself rush. So either a senior NCO or an officer would fit the bill, somebody who could command. I dont think they would have got that far without that strong leader calling the orders.
Sime I would agree with your last statement, when they got to the shear drop over the river, the water rushing through, it was in flood, the boulders. Thats the point they were stopped as a group. Hence the stand, possibly by then the 'officer' had been himself killed and left the group of men without a commanding presence.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 8:17 am

Well, here's my pennysworth. The group may have finished up on the Manzimnyama but it started on the east side of the nek. So an officer must have given the order to begin the retreat and leave the field. Once over the nek, that same officer must have given an order as to the direction to take once it was realized that the road was closed. After that the group would have, as SRB said, stuck together come what may or whither it was pushed by the Zulus and the officer would have been killed somewhere.
Nevertheless I think it's reasonable to say that someone initiated the retreat and that realistically could only have been an officer.
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 8:34 am

Hi,

There was a general movement towards the Saddle, probably called by individual officers (Melvill seemed to imply he was hoping to make a rallying point with the colours?) - better field of fire, higher ground and no Zulus that way

Once cresting the Saddle the western path was closed or being closed by the by the unseen Zulu Right Horn.

The only possible options were to try to head of South West (ish) behind Blacks Kopie or stay put - trapped between the Zulus and the hill/kopie.

I believe regardless of officers etc (and yes there would have been some) rather than stand and face certain death, either singularly, small groups or in a body (or a combination of all), the troops would have headed towards the place of perceived safety.

How close was the Zulu pursuit (we read disjointed Zulu accounts) and the fact that there was a large body of troops (even maybe short of ammo) would have deterred warriors from attacking, especially when easier pickings were available.

Cheers

Simon
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 11:01 am

Bonjour,
Two groups of soldiers were found far from the perimeter of the camp:
-The group massacred in the kraal mentioned by Witt: According to Witt, there were no British survivors;
-The group massacred on the bank of the Manzimyama stream.
I wonder if these two groups initially formed the same force or were two distinct groups.
Frank wrote on this subject, "In the map drawn by Captain Anstey for the Narrative there are two kraals indicated, one either side of the track on the western face in a direct line from iSandlwana to the Manzimyama crossing".
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 11:57 am

I am not sure that the presence of an Officer is necessary to explain the organized retreat towards the Manzymyama steam.
At Isandhlwana, it seems that Color Sgt Wolf was charged with a mission of sacrifice which required "nerves of steel".
See also the methodical retreat ordered by Sgt Booth (80th) at the Intombre river.
Cheers.
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 12:02 pm

As I said Fred, an NCO with command ability. Booth is a classic example of a fighting retreat well handled.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 9975
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 63
Location : Melbourne, Australia

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: The Western Slope    The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 3:12 pm

Frank plus the fact that the countryside near intombie , and what Booth and his party covered ..was a walk in the park compared to the terrain where the group got along to the Manzimnyama ! . The withdrawal couldn't have happened in an orderly manner if there was no-one in command , once you see the ground you'd agree !
90th
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 3:42 pm

My whole point Gary, there had to be a senior figure. Are you packed yet? Take some warm and wet weather gear
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 4:18 pm

Fred and Frank are right that it might have been an NCO but remember that Booth's retreat was initiated by an officer - Harward - and I do think that IF (a big if) an officer was left alive at Isandhlwana it would have been him that initiated any retreat or withdrawal from the eastern side of the nek (although as I said earlier, it may well have been held together by an NCO after that officer's death).
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptyFri May 10, 2019 10:23 pm

Unfortunately, there are too many incertainties. We don't know where were killed Daly, Atkinson, Dyson, Porteous, Mostyn ( but a ring belonged to him was found on the battlefield)... If the identity of some bodies of NCO /OR who lost their life on the fugitive's trail is known, it is not the case for the Imperial soldiers killed in the kraal described by Witt.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
90th

90th

Posts : 9975
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 63
Location : Melbourne, Australia

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: The Western Slopes    The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 4:37 am

Hi Frank
Not packed yet , waiting till monday morning ( last Minute ) , Thanks for the heads up .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 10:42 am

The possible 'officers' that retreated along the fugitives trail towards the Manzimyama are fairly limited.
The unaccounted for are
A company : Cpt Degaucher and Lt Porteous
E Company : Lt Cavaye and Lt Dyson
F Company : Cpt Mostyn and Lt Lt Daly
H Company : Lt Atkinson.

I would eliminate Atkinson, falling with Wardell at the foot of the saddle, two other officers were located at the site of Wardells body location.
F Company were to the right of C in the firing line and I suspect retreated with Younghusband and C company along the top of the camp. I would believe that Degaucher and Porteous died either above the 2/24th camp or are the unidentified officers bodies found with C company.
We know Anstey was found amongst a large group on the saddle, so the possibility exists that the unidentified Captains body ( Silver Wreath, Norman Holmes ) is that of Mostyn.
That would leave E company and portions of F company as the men fighting down the track under the command of either Cavaye Dyson or Daly
Just a possibility to think about.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 12:54 pm

Frank,
From memory:
The body of Cavaye was identified the 22/23 January but we don't know where his body was located (Mac and Shadbolt).
It seems that the body of Degacher was identified inside the camp by his brother the 22/23 January.
Cheers
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 1:13 pm

About Cavaye, if the version given by Mac and Shadbolt is true, probably inside the camp or near it:-…”his remains were recognized on the return of the main body of the column to the camp on the night of the 22nd” .Mac and Shadbolt, p. 151-152.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 1:50 pm

I have in my mind that mounted fugitive's glimpse of Daly waving...
The fugitives all took the same route near the track over the saddle.
And Daly had been with his F coy section on the northern perimeter.
For our fugitive to have seen Daly meant that Daly (with his men) must have travelled a fair old distance down through the camp to the track/saddle area.  I wonder how much farther he got.
Perhaps Daly was waving to us...
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 2:44 pm

Bonjour Julian,
I wonder who amongst the NNH and their officers did know the identity of Daly...
Amitié
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 2:49 pm

...if one of them if the author of the anecdote quoted by Merryman!
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 3:00 pm

Fred
Well, someone knew him well enough to be able to identify that it was him waving...
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 3:05 pm

Julian,
I don't contest the anecdote.
I only wonder who did see Daly and was able to identify him at this moment.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 5:37 pm

But who was the 'rider'/survivor. One of the NNC officers? Julian would there not be the possibility that Daly was on the firing line when the NNC broke, and there officers rode past?
Fred if Cavaye was identified then he could not have been at the Southern Manzimyama, that would take him of the list of possibilities.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 5:47 pm

Frank,
This is the reason why I did not mention his name in the list (as well as Degacher). Daly was known in Natal in civil society. I suppose a Natal Carbineer could also be the informant (as well as an IMI).
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Glyn found also the body of "little Noddy" during the night of the 22-23 January, a nickname for Hodson?
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 6:55 pm

Sorry, the author of the quote about Daly is not Merriman as wrongly mentioned.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 702
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 54
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySat May 11, 2019 9:17 pm

Hi,

I have always read that it was an officer of the NNMC who witnessed the wave - which narrows it down a bit......one was killed near the escarpment (Roberts).

It would appear that the Edendale Contingent had lost (not killed just mislaid!) its officer and was commanded by Simeon Kambula at the time it left the battlefield (the drummer boy tale)

Cheers

Simon

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7236
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes EmptySun May 12, 2019 6:55 am

Some interesting issues arising.
The so called 'waving' episode. I cant locate a definitive source for it. Urban legend?
IF it was an officer in command of the retreating force along the trail it would seem to be a choice between Daly or Dyson. Possibly Sergeant Giles could have come into the equation? Bandmaster Ballard was also recognised.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




The Western Slopes Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes Empty

Back to top Go down
 
The Western Slopes
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ANGLO ZULU WAR ESSAYS-
Jump to: