Pulliene wounded on the firing line?

Noticed on another forum that Pulleine was wounded in the head by Zulu musketry whilst on the firing line at Isandlwana. Anything in this?

Crimea

Hi Crimea
Don't remember ever coming across it , doesn't mean it didn't though , many mysteries when it comes down to Isandlwana .
90th

The only reference to Pulleine being wounded was an overheard conversation from I think Coghill. Would love to know any other source
Frank

Two quotes I can find are-

Curling: “Shortly after this I saw Lieutenant Coghill, who told me Colonel Pulliene had been killed.”

Private Brickly:“Lieut. Coghill afterwards joined us, and reported to the Adjutant that Colonel Pulliene had been shot.”

Obviously the word in the first quote is 'Killed' (fairly non ambiguous) but the wording of the second one "been shot" leaves room for debate.....but these are quotes of what someone said and remember in the heat of the moment.....

Cheers

Sime

The following is from Wikipedia. hardly gospel, but worthy of debate perhaps?

Donald Morris, in The Washing of the Spears, possibly basing his account on that which circulated amongst the 24th's officers after the battle, provides probably the fullest account of Pulleine's final moments. In his version, once it became clear the battle was lost, Pulleine ordered Melvill to attempt to escape with the colour before retiring to his tent, possibly to write a letter to his family, or alternatively to sketch a report of the defeat for Chelmsford. Before he could finish a Zulu confronted him and, despite wounding the man in the neck with his revolver, Pulleine was fatally stabbed by an assegai.[18]

An unknown source describes Pulleine as having died 'early'[18] in the fighting, and according to Henry Curling of the N/5 battery, Coghill informed him Pulleine was dead when he met Curling and Stuart-Smith as they began their flight to the Buffalo River.[15] This account is supported by that of another British survivor Pte Bickley, who mentions Coghill reporting to Melvill that Pulleine 'had been shot.'[19] This version of events would explain why Durnford was apparently unable to locate Pulleine once his force returned to the camp as the rout began. Furthermore, in his memoir A Lost Legionary in South Africa, Commandant George Hamilton Browne describes coming across and saluting Pulleine's corpse on his way back from visiting his tent on the morning of the 23rd.[20] Hamilton-Browne's 1st/3rd NNC had their tents on the extreme left of the camp, so the account would be consistent with Pulleine having died here.

It is also possible that Pulleine survived the British collapse, only to be killed in one of the desperate last stands which took place after it became obvious the British were doomed. Such a scenario is supported by at least one survivor account. Cracroft Nourse, a company commander with the NNC, describes how he saw 'half a company of the 24th, with their colonel in their midst, assegaied.'[21] near the foot of Isandlwana hill as he began his escape.

Crimea
This may assist:
https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t10177-the-western-slopes?highlight=Pulleine

also for a touch of conjecture
https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t10364-missing-cairns?highlight=the+missing+cairns

Morris whilst brilliant in his time was really very very good at making 2 + 2 = whatever he fancied

Frank

The tent scenario (as recreated by Denholm Elliot in Zulu Dawn) was taken from the account of Zulu warrior.....the warrior obviously not knowing who his 'victim' was.

Quite what the officer was writing is and will never be known....if it happened at all....I prefer to think it was a shopping list for the local hardware store.......and ended with "oh yeah and get some screwdrivers please".....

Excellent Frank 2+2 = WIW ( Whatever I want ) very good .
90th

Thanks Frank, that's a veritable mine of information...trouble is....it raises more questions than answers! LOL. Thanks to 'Zulu Dawn' I have this image of Pulleine sitting in his tent and fatalistically allowing himself to be killed......nice to think that he may have sold his life more dearly along with  the remnants of his command!

To imagine that as a battle raged around him and all was being lost, Pulleine would have found a quiet moment to pop back to his tent to write a few lines to his missus can only be worthy of Hollywood. I can picture a scene in which he might have decided to write a hurried note for Rorke's Drift and get it away with a messenger...but even then...Pulleine knew that his place was with his regiment and that's where he would have remained.

Hi

One thing that fascinates me is John Williams account of the end of the battle -

I then saw Lieutenant Melvill leaving Camp with the Queen's Colour and Lieutenant Coghill close behind him; the latter told me to come on or I should get killed; just then the two guns of the R.A. retreated out of Camp past me and I could see the men on foot who had attempted to escape turned back and coming into Camp.

When I got onto the hill overlooking the Rorke's Drift road the Zulus were entering the Camp from that direction and I saw Lieutenant Coghill's horse assegaid in the thigh.

About 300 yards out of the Camp the ground became so bad that the guns of the R.A., were upset and I saw several of the drivers assegaid. I passed them here and saw no more of the guns.

On my way to the drift I passed Band Sergeant Gamble 1/24th Regiment on foot but could give him no assistance.

When I got down to the drift I saw Lieutenants Melvill and Coghill coming down the rocks to it, and after I entered the river to cross saw no more of either of these Officers


If you take his account at face value - he left the camp after M&C, and the guns, saw Coghills horse assagied in the thigh whilst he (Williams) was on the saddle/nek

He went '300 yards' out of camp, passed the guns, passed Gamble

But ended up at Fugitives Drift before M&C

Obviously the trauma may have caused problems with his recollection of events.....

I have to assume that information about the Colour, that Melvill was carrying was learned soon after but before giving his statement - the Colour was cased (unless the Queens & Regimental colours had different cases?) so how would he know what Melvill was carrying.

Another point I have been pondering is did the 'unlucky' Gamble ask him for help because he says he could be of no assistance.....

Cheers

Sime

Hi Simon
Looking at the language:
'The later told me to come on', that intimates he was ahead of Williams and was urging him forward
'just then then the two guns of the RA passed me', so he had left the camp before the guns, possibly not by much.
The guns were ahead of him as you say he passed them 300 yards out of the camp.

Its a common thought that there was a pathway, the fugitives trail, and all the escapees followed that path. In truth they were spread over a wide area from the summit of Mpethe across the flat plain and bog to the edge of the cliff leading down to the river passed the bend and rapids. So its more than feasable that Williamd took a better route, inadvertently, than M and C.
As far as Gamble is concerned he seems to be in the same area as he was when Brickhill passed him.

Regards

Weren't Gamble's words something akin to "For God's sake give me a lift!"?

Julian ' For God's Sake give me a lift ' I think you'll find was directed at Brickhill ? .
90th

When we consider the situation it was really brave of Brickhill to admit that he abandoned Gamble, self preservation sure but the anguish he must have felt later on in life.
As a matter of interest Simon a mate of mine is getting ready to start mapping the cairns along the trail, hopefully rediscovering a few that have become over grown with the passage of time.

Hi Frank,

That would be very interesting.

Obviously cairns contain multiple occupants but I often wonder how many British casualties were West of the battlefield - who's cairns/remains have been destroyed by subsequent farming on that side of the hill.....never know of course....

Cheers

Sime

90th
Yes, I know. SRB was wondering about the trauma created in the fugitives' minds causing them to confuse events later on and about what Gamble might have asked Williams for him to be 'of no assistance'. Reading accounts, I think the trauma of the flight was more influential than is generally realized. Gamble's remark to Brickhill indicates something of the panic which then bred further panic in men's minds. Gamble must have said something similar to Williams (a sergeant to a private) which must have created something of a brief dilemma for Williams. Disobeying a sergeant - possible repercussions - devil take the hindmost - leaving someone he knew well to his fate - a split second decision. It must have played on Williams's mind then but more so later for him to have mentioned it in his statement. PTSD, not being recognized then, must have presented itself in many forms afterwards, as an outlet, and confused, jumbled re-telling must have been one of them. The mind recalls what it wants to recall and in no particular order. Trying to make sense of it afterwards must have been a torment for these poor blokes and they often got it wrong.
The Barker and Granger accounts are good examples of this.

Simon
The 1940 aerial survey of the area shows massive farming of the western slopes. In fact a map I have of the late 20's shows a farmhouse owned by the Lurrings family around half way down to the stream.
An interesting point with Gamble is that if he was passed in the stream bed, Brickhill says he was tottering around over the rocks, he must have left pretty early to get there ahead of Brickhill. Williams passed him on the way to the stream bed on foot, and well ahead of M and C. I wonder what his duties would have been whilst the camp was under attack. Most band members were acting as either stretcher or ammunition bearers, would Gamble have been in charge of them? If so his departure could well have been with indecent haste!
Just a though.
Frank

Hi Frank

He is mentioned by one of the survivors of the band (Wilson) - who was on stretcher duty.

When things started to go pear shaped and the defence collapsed, Shepard told them they would be of no use and Gamble told them to do one.

Reading his account it seems to be soon after the Police and Carbineers retired from the camp - he mentions the 'rest of the idlers' leaving camp.

He started of (along with someone else) carrying a stretcher back towards the nek....

Cheers

Sime

Hi Julian,

I spose once the jig was up, it came down to survival instincts......regardless of rank or station.....Williams had a horse....Gamble did not.

Given the time to do a 'risk assessment' and tactical evaluation, maybe Williams could have helped, maybe Brickhill could have - I think it was Hamer who says he was given a horse by a 'rocketeer' who was shot and killed soon after.

I often wonder about Vereker giving up the horse because the NNMC claimed it was his.....I myself would have asked for a Bill of Sale, registration document and at least 2 affidavits proving ownership (but that's me)

There were many 'heroic' acts and many 'cowardly' (though I don't like using that word - perhaps 'selfish' is better) ones - most of which are now lost in time.

Undoubtedly these men felt survivors guilt.....to the rest of their days and tried to justify their actions - at least in their own minds.

I really must get out more.......

Cheers

Sime

Frank
Before making any assumptions about Gamble's or anyone else's undue haste it must be remembered that he might have caught a loose horse which was subsequently stabbed forcing him to go on foot.  Perhaps that's way he was found tottering among the rocks so far along the trail.
Plenty of fugitives recorded that their horses were killed or fell and they caught another.  The 'Brave Fugitive' Hall got through three.  What was true of those who lived to tell the tale was also true of those that didn't.
SRB
Cowardice...selfish...? Self-preservation is a powerful motivator. The guilt of the survivors must have been overpowering especially for officers like Curling who must have felt a responsibility towards the men they commanded.

Julian Whybra wrote:

SRB Cowardice...selfish...?  Self-preservation is a powerful motivator.  The guilt of the survivors must have been overpowering especially for officers like Curling who must have felt a responsibility towards the men they commanded.

Hence the inverted commas, Julian......

Walking or riding Julian he was still ahead of Williams, if he had ridden part way it would make his departure that much earlier. As it is he seems to have departed well before Williams, who in turn saw M and C and the artillery before passing Gamble. So the 'assumption' has to remain, he left at an early stage. No disrespect intended for the good Sergeant but if one is putting together a time frame for the Fugitives it adds another point to the project.

If its any help Frank:-

Wilson

Gamble told Wilson to ship out (from the hospital tent area), he was passed by a carbineer heading up the to the hill (saddle?)
He caught a horse about ‘half a mile’ down the track.
He crossed the river and 50 to 100 yards on the Natal side met Private Bickley ('some way on' found a spare horse) at some point Wilson and Bickley met up with Sergeant Norton (IMI).

Bickley

He left from the area of the Officers Mess.
Made it to the saddle to see the Right Horn closing the road to Rorkes Drift
Found a pony about a ‘quarter of a mile’ from camp, shortly caught up with Mel and was joined by Coghill (who told them the Pulliene had been shot).
.

Frank
When you write 'walking or riding he was still ahead of Williams' that all depends on when the mounted Gamble might have lost his horse.  If he'd lost it half a minute before Williams arrived, he would left the camp at about the same time.  It also depends on where Williams and Gamble were in the camp when they began their retreats.  Williams was north of the General's tent and able to fire from there at the approaching Zulus.  If Gamble had been delivering ammo to the line he would have had much further to go to reach camp, unless he'd caught a riderless horse...if he was in the waggon park he would have been nearer the rear of the saddle...and so the speculation goes on.  I'm not moaning, I just think it's all too easy to say that a man left the camp 'early'.  It all depends on the starting point and the mode of travel.

I take your points Julian and Simon. However The RA had left the camp and been caught and savaged when Wilson got passed the wreckage, on the way to the drift he then found Gamble.
The speculation would therefor be that he left the camp well ahead of Williams, even after telling him to leave. The possibility then is that he could have caught a horse, and for whatever reason lost it. Again its possible that the RA were attacked and wrecked before he got there, so putting his departure after the RA. But he was still between the RA last known point and the stream when caught up by Williams hence would have had to have left before.
There are all sorts of permutations, Gamble had a horse lost it just after the RA demise then carried on walking, or, had passed that area before the RA was attacked then lost his horse, or, walked / ran from the camp early and had passed the RA site before it was attacked.
Endless possibilities but bottom line he was ahead of Williams and Brickhill therefore by any margin he left before.
In terms of starting point he was in a similar position within the camp at the same time as Williams
Just my thoughts.

Frank - I think Cog (not Gamble) told Williams to go and Gamble dismissed Wilson.

It seems that Wilson, Williams, Bickley and Gamble were all at the rear of the camp - Hospital tent, Glyns tent, quartermasters' area and Hospital tent (respectively).

Gamble could have found a horse and subsequently lost it but his last known contact (Wilson) did not find one until about half a mile down the track - Bickley had a saddled horse but left it for the Quartermaster (who told him to saddle it and went off towards the latrine).

We know that Williams had a horse from the get go but Bickley and Wilson found one on the track. Williams says he passed Gamble 'on his way to the drift'.

I feel that Wilson either left slightly before Gamble or at the same time as Gamble (Gamble told him to go) from the hospital area

If a similar exercise to what Julian did with the timeline of What the Rearguard Saw, could be done - you have a number of points in time - the departure of the guns, retreat of the Carbineers/Police, which to start from.

Now this may be a silly question but could a man on horse travel much quicker than one on foot along the Fugitives Path? - maybe in places but not all the way.....you are ex-cavalryman and have walked the path, there must be some advantage to having a horse and as far as I know, if you had not got a horse before 'half a mile on the track, you were in trouble....

cheers

Sime

My thoughts are Williams left last but having a horse from the start overtook Gamble who did not have a horse but never caught up with Bickers or Wilson (or at least never mentioned it)

Wilson left slightly before Gamble and found a horse half a mile down the track

Bickers left around the same time but found a horse before Wilson so was always ahead of him until they met in Natal.

Gamble left around the same time as Wilson & Bickers but never got a horse

And finally it was "Colonel Plumb in the WC with a lump hammer, that did it"

I've probably got this all wrong but hay ho......all as we have to do is tie in M & C with all this......

Frank
There's some confusion in your posting - too many cold beers on a Sunday afternoon...
Wilson made no mention of passing Royal Artillery wreckage.
Wilson did not find Gamble on the way to the drift. The last time he saw Gamble was when Gamble (in the camp) told him to leave.
It was Melvill who told Williams to leave, not Gamble.
SRB
Col. Plumb never went in the WC. That was QM Pullen - Bickley saw him heading in the direction of the 1/24th officers' latrines.
Yours, confused, of Billericay.

Julian Whybra wrote:

That was QM Pullen - Bickley saw him heading in the direction of the 1/24th officers' latrines.

Well when you've got to go, you've got to go.......20,000 spear armed enemies would certainly make me want to.....

Is Frank allowed beer now Uncle Cyril has banned it?

"when Wilson got passed the wreckage,"
Sorry that should have read Williams.The bottom line remains.
I started an essay a few hundred years ago on all the fugitives, even built a 3d comp model but it became impossible. SD blows it all apart, take him out of the equation and we can get a result. The central part works out on the theory 2 + 2=WIW, must pull it out and re look at it.
And the wine cellar is well stocked, Cyril caught me once, never again, and its bloody cold in Cape Town, 21 today

To get back to the original question, here's what I have on the fate of Colonel Pulleine:

Captain Gardner
"I then returned to Colonel Pulleine, but about five minutes later I observed the mounted men retreating–there were then some 10,000 before us. The enemy continued to advance steadily, and soon enveloped our right as well as left, and completely surrounded us.
I saw all was over; our men fought well, but both Colonel Durnford and Pulleine were shot; the guns attempted to retire, but the road was occupied by the enemy; they were overturned, and all the gunners were stabbed."

Private Bickley
"About a quarter of a mile on I found a pony standing in the path which I mounted and shortly after caught up Lieutenant Melvill who was carrying the Queen's Colour. Mr. Coghill afterwards joined us and reported to the Adjutant that Colonel Pulleine had been shot."

Lieutenant Curling
"When we had gone about 400 yds., we came to a deep cut in which the guns stuck. There was, as far as I could see, only one gunner with them at this time, but they were covered with men of different corps clinging to them. The Zulus were in them at once and the drivers pulled off their horses. I then left the guns. Shortly after this I saw Lt. Coghill, who told me Col. Pulleine had been killed."

Lieutenant Higginson
"Colonel Durnford was with the Rocket Battery, with Frank M’Dowell, R.E. (a son of Dr. M’Dowell, of Dublin). They were both killed very early in the battle. Then Colonel Pulleine (was shot through the brain, and five companies 1 24th Regiment and one 2 24th Regiment, and 23 officers, were cut to pieces."

Captain Nourse

"But the sight that met my eyes was saddening. The guns, which I had thought had escaped, horses and men, were all dead, huddled in a donga. The last and most pathetic sight was about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets." (This anecdote is partially backed by a statement in A Soldier's Life by E Durnford by Colonel Mansel and Captain Nourse).

Hi,

Well without being master of the obvious, they can't all be right.

If you look at Nourse (N) & Curling (C) (and if you follow their time lines - or narration).

Nourse

N sees the guns, then sees about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets.(or was the most pathetic sight seen back up towards the camp?)

This was presumably after he had passed the guns........now who was assagied – all of them, the Colonel (or the horse JW).....how can you be assagied without getting within bayonet reach (throwing spears?)

How close was N to the last stand – at that distance would he recognise a officer (probably) in patrol jacket? (also a very ‘romantic idea’)

Curling

C (leaves with his command?) – guns overan, C goes on does not mention the Colonel and the boys? Why - did the Colonel pass the guns and make his stand after C but before N got there.
OK so then (shortly after leaving the guns) Coghill turns up and says to Curling the Colonel has been shot.....

Hmmmm I'm confussed......

Frank 21 degrees - I'd have my string vest and knotted hankey on at that temperature, in Blighty

Off to work to churn out custard creams for you lot......

Cheers

Sime

Sime you can't beat a good custard cream , not as good as the Milk chocolate digestives ! , yes the Isandlwana ...he said , they said , far to confusing to make any definitive conclusion in my eyes , I decided to stop ' Translating ' many years ago , it's in the ATH ( All To Hard ) basket , I take them for what they are .... One person's account and I leave it at that .
90th

Chocolate digestives anytime. Put two back to back and dip in the coffee.

Well, one things for sure.....with no definite answers and conflicting evidence this question of the fate of Pulleine will last for ever. If this was judged in a  court of law I reckon the verdict may be 'Presumed killed by person or persons unknown, whereabouts indeterminable'.

As a matter of interest, what was the 'official' Government response?

Crimea there is very little certainty on any of the issues from iSandlwana apart from it happened on a Wednesday, after that its all in the air.

But if you think Pulleines death site is confusing stay away from Doc Peter Shepherd, that one will drive you nuts.

Alternatively, all weekend warrior's list of sightings/accounts could be true but just misremembered in the wrong order - all part of the PTSD.

LOL, as frustrating as it may be, sometimes its just as well to have a good mystery.

Did King Arthur really exist?
Was Robin Hood one man, or many or none at all?
Was Pulleine killed in his tent, out on the firing line or on the scree slopes?

All these things we may never know but it's good to discuss!

Crimea

It is indeed

Ah yes.. there is also the odd Private Parry (a bastion of truthfulness) anecdote suggesting that Pulleine's horse was shot out from underneath him. At least we've moved on from the old tale about him being killed in his tent.

If I had to make a wild guess, I'd have Pulleine shot and killed at some point after retire was sounded. Captain Parr discusses a Company of the 24th that had tried to extract themselves but were cut down west of the Neck. I'd have to say Nourse was probably mistaken and misidentified another unfortunate mounted Officer in a patrol jacket as Pulleine.

The problem (and appeal) of Isandlwana is that there is so little evidence regarding the final stages of the battle- and the evidence we do have is so contradictory- that any number of theories can be argued. Two can look at the same pieces of evidence and draw two entirely different conclusions.

Mike, he is under the cairns we found down on the Manzimyama. Happy to give a lot of money to anyone that can prove me wrong.

Frank Allewell wrote:

Crimea there is very little certainty on any of the issues from iSandlwana apart from it happened on a Wednesday, after that its all in the air.

Unless the Current Regime say it was a Saturday.......I go with GHB - somewhere on the way to his tent/NNIC camp and defo shot (like what Coghill said)

interesting conversation:

South African laboratory: Hi Cyril good news we have a vacine and have sold 100 million doses to Boris

Cyril: Good news what about doses for our own people

South African Laboratory: Ahh yes was meaning to chat to you about that!

I kid you not.

( Tongue in cheek of course )

My money on that unfortunate mounted Officer would be placed on Mostyn! Dependent on being able to trace who found his ring and the existence of any unsurfaced family papers.

Frank Alewell, I hope we can discuss and research this further in person if I ever manage to reach SA when and if the current virus/civil unrest/insurrection dies down.

Look forward to that Mike.

Mike I noticed on your list of statements you left of GHB, freudian slip maybe?

That was an intentional slip! There are quite a few descriptions related to various potential Pulleine bodies; most I believe are on your Western Slopes thread. My intent was to showcase the survivor statements I had (all of which admittedly may have been gleaned from Coghill, save for Gardner's)