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 The last survivor at Isandhlwana

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:36 pm

What was he doing in the cave in the first place. He must have had a lot of ammo to last untill 5pm.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:18 pm

Richard Moynan: Irish artist and unionist propagandist

The artist's loyalty to the Crown is evident in such paintings as The Last of the 24th at Isandula, 1879, (1883) and Home Again (1883). Moynan first came to prominence while still a student in the Royal Hibernian Academy in March of 1883 when he won the lucrative Albert Scholarship, the most valued prize for 'the best picture shown in the Academy by a Student' (Strickland, Reprinted 1989, p. 114). The work in question, entitled The Last of the 24th at Isandula, 1879, depicted the story of the British defeat at Isandula during the Zulu wars when an entire company of the 24th Regiment was killed. The resulting modern-day history painting showed the artist's political allegiances. Its theme of self-sacrifice (and eventual triumph)


"Its theme of self-sacrifice (and eventual triumph) So the painting was politically motivated and appears not to be based on fact.
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PostSubject: Last survivor   Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:10 am

A good point I had forgotten that the cave does face in the direction of the Mangeni Falls so yes could see towards his 'salvation' - the cave is also quite obvious from even those standing below the hill and with the fighting taking place near the entrance to teh cave it would seem unlikley that an inquisitive Zulu didn't take a look - I haven't been into the cave and if it is quite shallow then it would seem unlikely that a soldier would have remained hidden for long.

A few mentions of a rope around the soldiers neck - were there other examples of this occuring? - this act may have been reserved for an awkward 'customer' which may then link him to a final 'last stand'

I am tending to agree that this may well be written as an evocative tale of bravery against all odds.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:32 am

Quote :
So the painting was politically motivated and appears not to be based on fact.
Well that just sums it up. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:33 pm

Dave/CTSG

Do you not then think it is some sort of strange coincidence that on the one hand some Irish artist thinks to himself (in or around 1883);

" Ok, I'm a politically motivated, artistic type of guy, I suddenly feel the urge to do a painting on self sacrifice and eventual triumph but what to do, what to do? scratch Mmmm, potato famine? Best not. Battle of the Boyne? Bit dodgy. Ah! I know, I'll do some Brit redcoat from the 24th falling heroically out of a cave at iSandlwana, people will love that "

while, on the other hand, a single Zulu - a warrior of the Uve - gave oral evidence (in or around 1880) that a similar incident actually occurred?

(Incidentally, I liked the above reference to an "entire company of the 24th" being killed; somebody should have told them it was rather more than that I think!)

In truth, I wouldn't die in a ditch arguing the toss over whether or not this episode actually happened but my point is that I do think we should perhaps be more respectful of Zulu oral evidence and do the warrior in question the courtesy of giving him at least some of the benefit of the doubt.

U
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:41 pm

There is another painting that I have been looking for. But cannot seem to find it.
It’s of Melvill & Coghill lying next to each other with the colours resting across their chests. Of course we know this is not how it happen. But for some reason artists always seem to want to add that's (How it should have been) if anyone come’s across the photo please post. There is an officer standing next to them saluting.
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:48 pm

hi Littlehand

It is a painting by Alphonse de Neuville - I think I only have a black and white version of it somewhere but maybe a quick Google of the artist's name might turn something up?

If I find anything meantime, will let you know. Hope this helps.

U
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joe

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:06 pm

Hi
I think this may be the one
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thanks joe
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:09 pm

Thanks Joe. That's the one. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:16 pm

This topic should really be called "The Last of the 24th at Isandula" (The title of the painting) and not the "The last survivor at Isandhlwana" because if he was the last survivor we would know who he was. if you get my meaning.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:42 pm

HOW THE LAST MAN DIED AT ISANDULA.
Marlborough Express, Volume XVI, Issue 92, 22 April 1881, Page 2

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90th

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PostSubject: Last Sleep Of The Brave Print   Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:44 am

Hi all.
If anyone is interested . I have this print but due to lack of wallspace it is still in its cylinder along with 2 other prints. Suspect .



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cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:04 pm

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This did not happen, they did not leave the Battlefield together.

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The Colours were found elsewhere.
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:38 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Quote :
So you're dismissing Ian Knight’s evidence?

On the basis that there were no British survivors, therefore there are no actual accounts to say what actually took place at this stage of the Battle from the British, Yes I am dismissing Ian Knight’s evidence.

You will find that most books written on the Battle of Isandlwana must be partly based on fiction or what author think may have happen, don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with speculation, but one must understand that only the Zulu’s know what really happen and there are very few accounts left by them.

Cisco. Here’s a good exercise for you. Pick three books different authors. Read what they say about the Battle of Isandlwana, you will find much is the same, but then you will see that each author adds the (The what I think happen) And then the versions varies.

Now if someone produced a book on nothing but the Zulu accounts, well then we might get to the truth of the matter.

Read Mike Snooks book "How Can Man Die Better" If we are to believe what may have happened then this is how it did.

Fair point - I guess that without new evidence being uncovered then most authors will, as you said, just use other evidence, so it gets tainted as time moves on...

But, here we have an account from the time, so wjy wouldn;t you believe it? But then again, you could suggest that the news paper correspondant was just after a story...
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:55 pm

He must have had a lot of ammunition to last as long as he did. And as far as I’m aware no body was found with bullet wounds near the cave and in this particular body there would have a few wounds if as claimed several Zulus fired a volley at him. I have never read that empty cartridges had been found in the cave again there would have been quite a few and there would have been quite a few Zulu bodies laying around to many to carry off, if we are to believe this carried on at least an hour after the action. 5pm.

I tend to agree with the statement another forum member made, (Ken Gillings I think) there were probably quite a few pockets of resistance fights taking place all over Isandlwana. I also tend to think that stories and painting of the actions at Isandlwana brought some comfort to those back home. The one that doe’s it for me and always will do again this is only based on hearsay. Is the last order supposedly? Shouted at Isandlwana.

"FIX BAYONETS AND DIED LIKE BRITISH SOLDERS".


Now how proud doe’s that make you feel, even after 131 years it still has the same effect. And that is what this particular painting doe’s. The last 24th.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:24 pm

By Ian Knight with reference to part of a book review relating to:
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"Also, I must admit, I would have liked a greater definition of the term ‘myth’ and its use in this context, since there is little distinction between the word in the context of something which is false – which is believed to have happened, but did not – and something which occurred and afterwards accrued a mythic significance. The story that one of the 24th defended a cave on the slopes of Isandlwana until finally killed by a volley of Zulu rifle-fire has certainly been mythologised – but is it a myth? It comes from a first-hand account by a Zulu eyewitness, who saw it – which means that the incident itself is as much a fact as any other we can lay claim to in the confused, fragmentary, trauma-ridden and often self-serving product of damaged memories which pass for first-hand evidence about the battle.


All in all, it seems that the reality of the war of 1879, as with others, defies understanding ever more with each attempt to define it; which is perhaps hardly surprising, as ‘history is merely lies agreed upon by historians’, and with this war more than most there remains, for all that is written about it, precious little agreement."



Doe's any member have this book. I have never heard of it until now.
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90th

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PostSubject: Last Survivor of Isandlwana   Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:36 am

hi John.
I dont have this book only because it has only recieved one star from the following reviews .

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cheers 90th.

ps. Site well worth joining .
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:53 pm

In the book The heroism and tradgerdy of the zulu war 1879 by Saul David he mentions an officer coming across the cave and finding stripps of red jacket and the floor being covered in cartridge cases. Hope this helps.
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Eric



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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:32 am

springbok9 wrote:
Hi Umbiki
Ok the questions asked, was it real? Nobody will ever know. The only witness account was from a zulu. We had this discusion some time back, my comment then was that I would hope it to be true as I love Melodrama.
However this whole thing smacks of just that, Punch or one of the other Penny Dreadfuls.
Second question was could the soldier have hidden in the cave, the answer is simply it is to shallow. I would think that if I where that soldier I would be tempted to lie low and wait for rescue rather than blast away in some futile act of retribution. But perhaps he was seen and had to defend himself, dont forget after the battle the uDibi umfaan were let loose to kill any wounded. I have no doubt that this was done with lots of enthusiasm and dedication. So possibly our hero was cornered and had to fight out of circumstance.
In terms of 'proof ' the only absolutes we have is of a brief statement by a warrior and the discovery of a body, rope around neck and skull crushed below the cave on the slopes. ( Again maybe the uDibi boys having some fun?)
As we can only do with other issues resulting from this battle, make up your own mind and enjoy it.
CTSG tends to put Mike Snook on a pedestal and believe every thing he wrote. ( That very very selectivly)
For Mike as a serving officer and Col of the regiment ( with all the pride that entails ) it suits him to have this last glorious defense by a soldier of his regiment, so be it.
For other authors a tad more pragmatic, it doesnt exist, again so be it.
For tour guides, they are paid as entertainers not historians, David Ratray called himself a story teller.
For me a few weeks back sitting in the mouth of that cave at around 5 in the evening it was magic................I believed in the tail.

Regards

I have to agree with these sentiments. I have just managed to get hold of Colonel Snook's book. It is a great peice of writing. I was riveted throughout. I cannot wait to get hold of the other books he has written. ( I believe he wrote one about Rorkes Drift and something about the Sudan) However there is a lot of writers licence in what he says. I suppose he is in his righst to do so as there is no other evidence but it is still wht he thinks may have happened. Ian Knoght seems to be much more scholalrly. Just my thoouughts but I also like to believe the story about the last defender in the cave.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:25 pm

I think we should take note of the reason why the artis painted it. I personally don't this really happened.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:52 pm

But there are 2 pionts of evidence so i think it is true
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:37 pm

In my opinion, there was a last man at Isandlwana, whether it be a 24th soldier or other unit member. If Zulus mention one man fighting on, shooting at the warriors, then he must have been in a reasonably secure position to do so, therefore off the lower battlefield and located in a site with some advantages, including height, where he could not be surrounded by two or more warriors. Remember, someone must have been the last to fall on the British side in the close vicinity of the camp area, so why shouldn't this story be the truth ? In the camp there was the Zulu account of one soldier who was on his lonesome in an area where all defenders were already dead or vacated the area, standing on a wagon and fighting hard, but nothing in the way of protection or the preventing of him being surrounded. The other chap in the cave had the luck to be somewhere a bit better, albeit not able to last forever.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:25 pm

I have just read in How Can Men Die Better that a " Black wagon driver concealed himself high up on Isandlwanan, where he would remain undected and in due course make his escape."

Also the man hidden on Isandlwana later said he saw fourty wagons being loaded with wounded and maimed.



This is amazing a survivor of the battle who watched the sacking aswell.


Does anyone have any infomation on this man???????????




Regards DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:04 pm

I would be very interested to know how they moved these wagons full of dead Zulu's as we know they killed just about everything that had legs, And there ks no way they could have man-handled them far to heavy. It took long enough to get them to Isandlawana, and that was using oxon.
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PostSubject: The Last of the 24th   Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:23 pm

Hi DB14.
If you contact Julian Whybra by the pm facility he may be able to tell give you the info you are after .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:14 pm

I now have no dout this took place.

This is from the Noble 24th

" I came to a small cave. Looking into this i saw the floor strewn with empty cartridge cases, also shreds of a red serge jacket. Evidently some poor 24th man had defended himslf and made a stand here, In searching about 100 yards below the summit i came across a human skeleton with a rope round the neck. After fetching our doctor from the camp i asked if the remains were those of a white or black man. He replied undoutedly a white man."

This is from the H.G. Mainwaring report.

Cheers
DB14
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:05 pm

1. We have a Zulu report, this is by Ian Knight

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2. We have the following reprt about someone finding the cave

I came to a small cave. Looking into this i saw the floor strewn with empty cartridge cases, also shreds of a red serge jacket. Evidently some poor 24th man had defended himslf and made a stand here, In searching about 100 yards below the summit i came across a human skeleton with a rope round the neck. After fetching our doctor from the camp i asked if the remains were those of a white or black man. He replied undoutedly a white man."



My opinion

It happened Idea


Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:40 pm

This from the supposedly reliable website:

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"When the situation at Isandlwana seemed hopeless, Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine ordered Melvill to save the Colour. He was accompanied by Coghill, he having......"

Myths like this were - and still are - allowed to run and run. No one witnessed this order of course, but it suited and still suits white middle class England and the government of the day to believe that this is what happened. Pulleine hiding and M and C fleeing the battle on horseback when they were most needed by the men under their command are far less palatable, no?
Of course, as I have mentioned before, Zulu witness accounts are deemed shall we say, less reliable by white middle class English and settler society in particular. Draw your own conclusions as to why.
For example, the perfectly plausible account of the last 24th soldier in the cave, the perfectly plausible account of the Zulu warrior who claimed to have slotted Pulleine whilst he was sitting at his desk in his tent, writing a letter in the heat of the battle. (Probably more likely than him fighting heroically, in my opinion).
But these are Zulu accounts. Accounts we do not want to believe.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:59 pm

Tasker the warrior did not make refrence to Pulliene Idea



It could have been any officer he killed






Cheers
DB14
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:18 pm

Pure speculation and Victorian Dramatisation. It keeps the civilians happy a Breakfast.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:28 pm

Then why was the cave littered with Cartridge Cases Suspect Suspect Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:51 pm

Quote :
Then why was the cave littered with Cartridge Cases.

Was there though.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:00 pm

The painter.

Moynan achieved early success within the art school system. More mature than his fellow students in terms of age and education, he won prizes in both the Taylor and Cowper competitions. In 1882 he moved on to the Royal Hibernian Academy, where he won both silver and bronze medals for his work, crowning these achievements the following year with the Albert Scholarship for the best picture shown in the Royal Hibernian Academy by a student. This painting, The Last of the 24th at Isandula (RHA, 1883), portrayed an episode in the Zulu wars, providing an early indication of the artist's unionist outlook, a characteristic evident throughout his career.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:58 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker the warrior did not make refrence to Pulliene Idea



It could have been any officer he killed






Cheers
DB14

Well, not by name obviously DB14, but the description of him and the very fact that the officer was sitting in a tent writing a letter, makes it most likely that it would have been Pulleine. Only the officer i/c could conceivably be writing a letter or notes in the middle of a massive contact situation.
If you are looking for evidence it was Pulleine with 100% certainty, forget it. Disbelieve the story.
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:14 pm

tasker224 wrote:
Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker the warrior did not make refrence to Pulliene Idea



It could have been any officer he killed






Cheers
DB14

Well, not by name obviously DB14, but the description of him and the very fact that the officer was sitting in a tent writing a letter, makes it most likely that it would have been Pulleine. Only the officer i/c could conceivably be writing a letter or notes in the middle of a massive contact situation.
If you are looking for evidence it was Pulleine with 100% certainty, forget it. Disbelieve the story.

I thought that the Zulu lad reffered to him as the leader?
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:40 pm

I have never seen a copy of the original witness statement that was taken; I am sure it is in existance somewhere, but I wouldn't know where to find it. perhaps someone can help.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:45 pm

.


Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Got it Idea

I saw a little white house standing by itself and I sprang into its opening looking for the White Man's drink. At a table there was seated an officer, who when he saw me appear plucked out a little gun and shot me through the cheek. I staggered but found myself still alive so I sprang upon hm and finished him with my spear and that is why I am now called 'Maquedindaba' ('He who finishes the matter') because I killed the chief induna of the army and here is the scar of the wound he gave me."


Hope that helps

Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:59 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Got it Idea

I saw a little white house standing by itself and I sprang into its opening looking for the White Man's drink. At a table there was seated an officer, who when he saw me appear plucked out a little gun and shot me through the cheek. I staggered but found myself still alive so I sprang upon hm and finished him with my spear and that is why I am now called 'Maquedindaba' ('He who finishes the matter') because I killed the chief induna of the army and here is the scar of the wound he gave me."


Hope that helps

Cheers
DB14

Thanks DB14, but what is the source?
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:01 pm

I found it posted by Ken Gillings in another topic


Its in the book Zulu Rising i think Suspect



Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:08 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
I found it posted by Ken Gillings in another topic


Its in the book Zulu Rising i think Suspect



Cheers
DB14

Thanks a lot DB14, i will look it up. Ian Knight will have referenced it.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:41 pm

It is interesting that in the film Zulu Dawn, on TV yesterday, Pulleine is depicted as being killed by a young Zulu warrior as he sits in his tent writing that letter, whereas the last survivor in the cave is not depicted.
Might seem a little odd to some, but that is the first time that I have actually sat down in front of a TV and watched this film.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:11 pm

The film is odd!
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:18 pm

Although I enjoy 'Zulu Dawn', it is mainly because it is the only film available in recent times about Isandhlwana, which fails in many areas if trying to compare with real events.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:37 pm

Colin J. wrote:
Although I enjoy 'Zulu Dawn', it is mainly because it is the only film available in recent times about Isandhlwana, which fails in many areas if trying to compare with real events.

True Colin, but it is just a FILM based on real events, it doesn't attempt to be a documentary. No matter how close to "real events" the film might have been made, you will always find people who will dispute and criticise it. You are a member of this forum, you know that!

Never yet having been to the battlefield, I did enjoy the shots of the ground over which the battle took place and the atmosphere. Like the film Zulu, it did give a tiny impression - and I repeat the word tiny - of what it must have been like to have been there.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:27 pm

Tasker, I agree. The scenery, as in 'Zulu' gives a small idea of the terrain, including how red jackets and white bell tents stood out against the surrounding country. I aways like the fact in 'Zulu' that the right-hand section of the Drakensburg mountains in the background, does look like Mt. Isandhlwana in the distance, as it could actually be seen from Rorke's Drift. Apparently, the terrain would have looked a great deal more spectacular if it's grass had been thick and green, which meant that the uniforms and tents would have really stood out.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:36 pm

A few months back they interviewed an old Zulu,whose grandfather fought in the battle, on a kids educational program

anyway, he told a very good story of how the Zulus were clearing the battlefield , picking off the wounding etc when suddenly a shot fired , then another and another , and the old zulu intimated how a warrior fell with each shot

he said that they were all cautious to approach as this lone soldier was a very good shot , and any warrior attempting to charge him was cut down

he described how they finally shot him from a distance with their newly captured rifles, and when I went to the cave I thought I could still see the bullet holes in there (it could have been water erosion)

either way it was an excellent story , and I admired and pitied this final soldier as he awaited certain death.



Cheers
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:57 pm

Quote :
I thought I could still see the bullet holes in there
He either did or he didn't
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:07 pm

sas1 wrote:
Quote :
I thought I could still see the bullet holes in there
He either did or he didn't

I spoke to Sawubona from the "other forum", who sent me some pics of the cave and said he could see bullet holes. He also said it would have made a good place to defend.
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PostSubject: Re: The last survivor at Isandhlwana   Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:12 pm

Quote :
I spoke to Sawubona from the "other forum", who sent me some pics of the cave and said he could see bullet holes. He also said it would have made a good place to defend.

Cisco. Any chance of posting the photo's
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