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 H Company. 1/24 Photograph

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Clayman



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PostSubject: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:50 am

I was reading Ian Knight's book "Zulu Rising" from the local library and came across a photograph of H Company 1/24 taken 3 months before the battle of Isandlwana. Whilst it named the officers it did not name the individuals in the ranks behind them. I was curious but as it looked like an official photograph does anyone know where a listing might exist? I have my great grand uncles name, service number and the fact that he was in 1st Battalion, 24 Regiment and he died at at Isandlwana ( thanks for the earlier help) but it would be fascinating to discover if he is in the picture.
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:04 pm

i dont know of any listsing but i can point out a few other individuals. behind cavaye (officer on the left) is colour sergeant wolfe- if you look cloesly you can see his insignia. also far left if memory serves is sergeant deeming with medal who think left before the start of the zulu war

hope that helps

ciroferrara
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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:35 pm

I'd try the RRW Museum, but if there was a listing of the men in the photo existing, there is the likelihood Ian or some other author would have both sourced and used it in their books before now. I'd recommend sourcing a quality portrait photo of your great Grand Uncle taken about as close to the time when the photo of the company was, then try to match with a face in the company photo. However, there were many men in the 1/24th killed at Isandlwana from several companies, which'll make it all the more difficult. Worth trying one of the above suggestions though.
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Clayman



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PostSubject: More help - please.   Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:34 pm

Sorry to be stupid but the "RRW Mueum " is what and where? Would they have a listing by compnay?
As for matching I have no photograph to compare and no idea if any other relative of William Oakley has one.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:00 pm

Hi Clayman

Please try this link, it might help.

http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/brecon/about.htm
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90th

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PostSubject: H Company 1 / 24th   Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:28 am

Hi Clayman .
As far as I'm aware there isnt a caption giving the names of the other ranks in the photo , and as Colin j mentioned if
there was such a listing it would have been found and released in someone's work over the years . I dont think record
keeping or the photographing of the other ranks was a strong priority back in the Victorian Era . Rolls etc , yes , photo's
certainly not . I dont think from memory I've ever seen a photo listing the names of the other ranks , officers or nco's
yes , but the poor old private , sorry to say no . Especially if there were many in the photo .
cheers 90th.
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Clayman



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:24 pm

That's what I suspected but you never know. Particularly in the circumstances given the death toll I half hoped someone might have gone back and added the names. Still family history was only for the rich in Victorian England so it's not surprising.
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Clayman



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:51 pm

Regimental Museum have confirmed that William was not in H Company so I don't know if there is a list of who is on the photograph. It was apparently taken at St Helena.
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mons14

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:51 pm

Clayman wrote:
Regimental Museum have confirmed that William was not in H Company so I don't know if there is a list of who is on the photograph. It was apparently taken at St Helena.

There's a list of all thoes in 'H' Company?? (I didnt know that!)

If so is there any source, other that the museum that holds this list?

mons14
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Clayman



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:05 pm

They said that William Oakley was not in H Company so that implies that they know who was but you may need to contact them directly.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Capt: George Wardell & Lt: Charles Atkinson were both in H Company.

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t224-captain-george-vaughan-wardell?highlight=Wardell
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:00 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
H Company, 1st Battalion, 24th Foot: Wiped out by the Zulus at the Battle of Isandlwana
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:19 pm

This photograph was one of a pair. It was taken in South Africa, NOT in St. Helena. The two H coys, 1st bn. and 2nd bn., decided to have their photos taken and exchanged them as gifts. Both ended up in the possession of the RRW Museum.
David Jackson asked for a copy of the 1st bn. photo in the 1950s. Astonishingly the Museum sent him the framed original through the post and told him to get it copied himself. This he did and then returned the original to the Museum.
At the time of the film Zulu in 1963/4 Stanley Baker borrowed the photo of the 2nd bn. H coy in order to have a reliable visual check on the appearance of the soldiers for the cast. He never returned the photo to the Museum. Presumably it may still be among his effects and in the possession of his children. Perhaps it's time someone tried to get it back! No copy of it was ever taken.
At the same time as this, the 1st bn. photo was stolen from the Museum and has never been found.
David Jackson therefore had the only copy of this photo and copyright is his. He has allowed two copies of it to be made - one he gave to me, the other he gave to Ian Knight, who reproduced it with David's permission and all due acknowledgements in his book.
I suggest out of politeness, littlehand, that you delete your post with the photo in as it infringes David's copyright.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:01 pm

The records of which particular company soldiers were in were lost a long time ago. However, those who were in H company 1/24th can be identified. These H company men are identified in their biographical records in "The Noble 24th" so whilst it is impossible to ID the company of the vast majority of those who perished at iSandlwana, it is possible to say whether or not they were in H co.Why? I don't know.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:00 pm

It is possible to identify a very few of the men in the photograph and to suggest identities for a few more. I'm afraid I'm not prepared to do this in full just yet.
I am prepared to say that the officers lying down in front are from L to R Cavaye, Atkinson, Wardell. To the left of Cavaye is Col-Sergt Wolfe and front row far left wearing the medal is Sergt. Thomas Deeming.
The photo was taken either at Wynberg in 1876 or King William's Town in 1877. It was presented in Cape Town in October 1878 (as stated on the photo).
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:16 pm

Photo Split and enlarged. Hope it helps
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:17 am

Admin
I must tell you that you are infringing copyright by posting this photo on the web without permission. you really should remove it.
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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:17 am


Hello Julian

Bravo, nice picture

Hey, speaking of companies (also Zulu, I count on you ...) what is the book that will tell me the exact number of men in each company's 24 th at Isandhlwana?

This must be some ...

Cheers

Pascal













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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:11 pm

Pascale
It is not possible to find the exact composition for the coys in the 1st bn.
You can count the number of men in the H coy photo and deduct those who left after the photo was taken. Some of their names are available because they were stationed on St. Helena and are so marked in the Noble 24th. Take the rest of the 1st bn and divide by 4 to get an approx. no. in each coy (around 80).
The G coy 2nd bn soldiers are named in the Noble 24th as are the coys of those men from other 2nd bn coys on detached duties who comprised the composite coy under Dyer.
That's all you can do I'm afraid.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:15 pm

Tasker
It's possible to identify the H coy soldiers because the coy received its own payroll while it was stationed on St. Helena. Thus the names are recorded separately. The Payroll and Muster Book for it is held in the National Archive.
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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:42 pm

thank you Julian


I have rolls of 24 th at Isandhlwana:


- In "England's Sons" by Julian Whybra.

- In "Historical Records of the 24 th Regiment ,from its Formation,in 1689 "by George Paton,Farquhar Glennie.

- In "Forgotten Heroes Zulu & Basuto Wars Including Complete Medal Roll 1877-8-9 " by Roy Dutton.

But each time it's names in alphabetically order , grades after grades, regardless of the companies .

What misery, because at the tactical level in the battalion, it is useful to know which company is the most powerful in strength or better in combat, ect...

There is no book on earth that says that?


Cheers

Pascal
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:34 pm

There is no book - or to be more precise - no surviving record - of who was in which company. The company clerk of C coy 2nd bn, Corp. Bassage, kept a record of C coy's men in his clerk's notebook. That survives. but all the Isandhlwana coys' clerks were killed at Isandhlwana and their personal effects destroyed or strewn over the field of battle. Thus no company records survive.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:36 pm

Part 2
Not even both battalions' Pay and Muster Rolls for that Quarter survive. They too were at Isandhlwana and lost.
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:54 pm

Quote :
Admin
I must tell you that you are infringing copyright by posting this photo on the web without permission. you really should remove it.

Thanks Julian. I have e-mail the member who originaly posted the image. Who states it come form a pubilc domain with no copyright notice. Can you help by providing a link to the The original holder of the copyright. Your help would be appricated.. Idea
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:07 pm

Just type in "H Company, 1st Battalion, 24th Foot: Wiped out by the Zulus at the Battle of Isandlwana" into your browser and see how many sites are showing this image,no copyright notice. Here are some links i got the image from the 1st image.

http://portfo.li/tha-dossier/4429724-battle-of-isandlwana
http://warfare.lefora.com/2010/01/22/the-battle-of-rorkes-drift-january-1879/
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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:49 am

Hi Jullian

Well too bad, but I'm already on the forum, found that more precise distribution of the guys in each unit of the 24 th and I will do with ...

I account for the thing was written on the Zulu army by Chelmsford, in its second edition with annotations written after Isandhlwana on the Zulu loss at Isandhlwana and RD, it's hilarious, it really took people for idiots ...

Now I miss it more than the number of companies per Zulu regiment...

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:56 pm

There is also an image of H Coy in Edmund Yourke's book.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:14 pm

F.W. David Jackson holds the copyright and gives his permission for it to be reproduced. I suggest you contact him.
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Commandergood



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:40 pm



I don't really understand. How can someone today hold the copyright of a Victorian photograph?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 pm

Of course the forum does display on the home page the notice " Fair Use Notice" So if Mr Jackson was offended he could make it known and an Agreement could be made between himself and our Administrator.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:28 pm

Commandergood wrote:
I don't really understand. How can someone today hold the copyright
of a Victorian photograph?

Its David Jackson's photo, there for if you want to use it you have to ask him, simlpe.


Cheers
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Commandergood



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:23 pm



I understand where you're coming from, but I don't see how simply because someone happens to buy or come across an old photo they therefore own the copyright to it. There might be other prints of that photo around anyway. Copyright applies to the creator of an original work from what I can see and runs out after a certain period of years. If anyone has any info on this subject as it relates to old photos I would be interested to hear their views.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:35 pm

David owns the only copy of the original which was stolen from the museum in the 50s. He had it enhanced and enlarged and has only ever had two copies made (to Ian Knight and to me) with permissions to use in publications provided acknowledgement is given. I've never allowed anyone access to my copy. I imagine that all the ones you'll find on the net have come from Jackson's Hill of the Sphinx.
I make no comment on copyright matters. I've simply told you who owns the photo. It's for you to ask permission from David if you wish to use it in any publication.
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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:47 pm

I'm sure David Jackson woundn't mind the free publicity. Any mentioned of his book on any forum can only be good for business. I could understand if it was used to profit from, but it's not' the only profit to be made is an increase of sales "Hill of the Sphinx" I brought it based purly on it's mention on this forum. Authors should be gratefull we discuss their books, and we do it free of charge. There's nothing like free advertising. And it's doesn't do the publishers any harm either. Salute

This copy right. Issue is a crock of old ####
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PostSubject: Re: H Company. 1/24 Photograph   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:37 pm

Fair use notice.

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We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.

We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
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