The traitor John Dunn

Hi all

Well, I affirm that John Dunn, betrayed to the Zulus, so sickening...

Cheers

Pascal

Hello

This is the one who sells weapons to the Zulu with which they kill British, and after, to reward the Zulu so well treated, will betray them by joining Chelmsford, allowing it to become one of the wren puppet who destroyed the Zulu royal house after 1879

Another sacred coconut, that one ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal. It would pay for you to read up on Dunn's situation before making a statement like this.

Hello

oh! oh! What you want is stronger than me, he had only to remain neutral, over all I say is true ...

Cheers

Pascal

thank you John

I will see this as soon as I have a second's respite with my painting and my green stuff ...

Cheers

Pascal

Hi Pascal .
John dunn didnt wish to fight the zulu , he was given an ultimatum in which he would have been a very big loser if
he stayed on the zulu side , please read the previous posts from a few months ago regarding this subject , its all been covered before .
Chelmesford gave him no choice but to side with the british .
cheers 90th.

Hi Garry

Ok I see this earlier ...

Cheers

Pascal

Good evening John and Garry

What a slice! I read everything! So according to you he had no choice?

If ! Of losing all that had brought him the friendship of the king of the Zulus ...

But he did spend his "small" personal interests ahead!

There is no better than the Zulu dissidents ... and dissidents is what it is ...

And then when you see how he treats his wife he did execute two of the unfortunate of his harem, we see what kind of guy he was.

Even then, the Natal Victorian societée should not hold in high esteem ...

Even today, he would still rather frowned upon ...

So I keep my first impression ...

Cheers

Pascal

Quote :

He was careful to heed Zulu marriage rituals and customs and paid ilobolo (bridewealth delivered by bridegroom to his in-laws) of between nine and 15 head of cattle to the fathers of the brides. For breach of rules, several of his wives were banished from his household and two wives found guilty of infidelity were sentenced to death and executed in accordance with Zulu law.

He would not have had much choice. When it Rome!!!!!!

Hi Chard

But if!! he had the choice ! ! ! One not to marry ! This guy wanted to take advantage of the situation conferred by the status offered by the king zulu

Cheers

Pascal

Does anyone know what was said to Dunn, for him to take the side of the British.

The actual wording.

"Dunn tried to negotiate a position of neutrality for his chiefdom but the British warned him that he would lose everything in a British-controlled Zululand." don't think he had a choice.

However saying that, here some words from King Cetshwayo, while in captivity at Cape Town Castle, he recorded his thoughts on his friend, John Dunn: I suppose you have to ask the question. What price do you put on friendship.

"One very cold and stormy night in winter I was seated before a large fire in my hut when there was a noise without as if someone was arriving.
I asked the cause from my attendants and they told me a white man in a miserable state of destitution had just arrived and claimed my hospitality. I ordered the servants to bring him in, and a tall, splendidly made man appeared. He was dressed in rags, for his clothes had been torn to pieces in fighting through the bush, and he was shivering from fever. I drew my cloak aside and asked him to sit by the fire, and told the servants to bring food and clothing. I loved this white man as a brother, and made him one of my head indunas, giving him land and wives, daughters of my chiefs. Now my sun has gone down and John Dunn is sitting by the fire, but he does not draw his cloak aside."

Here's an account by W C F Molyneux referring to John Dunn. No doubt some panic with the British lines.

"John Robert Dunn was born in Port Natal in 1834 and became famous as the 'White Zulu'. He was fluent in the Zulu language and was employed by Cetshwayo as a go-between for negotiation between Zulus and the whites. Cetshwayo rewarded him with land and wives. Although he was married to Catherine Pierce he took 48 Zulu wives over a period of several years and fathered 117 children by them. When the Anglo-Zulu War started he had to side with the British.
An excerpt from 'Campaigning in South Africa and Egypt' by W C F Molyneux who whilst holding the rank of Captain served on the staff of Lord Chelmsford:

'John Dunn was the son of a Scotchman who had settled at Port Elizabeth in Cape Colony. Being of an adventurous frame of mind he had come to Natal about 1850, had been made interpreter to the Governor of Durban, and somehow got mixed up in the Zulu civil war of 1856, when Cetewayo defeated his brother Umbulazi on the Tugela. Though Dunn had been on that occasion with the losing side, he seems later on to have become most friendly with Cetewayo, and with his brother Dubulamanzi, whom he taught to ride and shoot with a rifle. The king gave him land near the Lower Tugela, and wives, and he was now a chief over a tribe. He had warned Cetewayo against fighting us; but when at the beginning of 1879 he saw war was imminent, he went over with his tribe into Natal and remained neutral.

'The General had asked him to come with us to Echowe as guide, for he knew every path and every bit of bush on the way. He would not promise, but when we had started he set off after us, and of course all the fighting men of his tribe followed their chief. We welcomed them warmly, gave each a red handkerchief for his head, and employed them as scouts. John Dunn was a handsome powerful man of about 40 years of age, a perfect rider and rifle-shot, rode an excellent jagd-paard (shooting horse) on all occasions, had the best of saddlery, breeches, boots and other clothes (which he always got from England, though he had never been there), and but for his large wideawake hat and tanned face might have been taken for an English country gentleman'.

In the column led by Lord Chelmsford to relieve Echowe, before the battle of Gingindlovu, Dunn carried out a one man reconnaisance which established the location of the Zulu impi. This recce was carried out without clothes because it involved swimming across the Inyetzani River. But although he and his Zulu scouts were so useful to Chelmsford his association with the British brought him great sorrow. On the 6th April during the withdrawal from Eshowe, there was a false alarm early in the morning which spooked the soldiers and they fired on Dunn's scouts by mistake. There was a great deal of bloodshed and Dunn cried out, "They are killing my people! Are the men fools? Can't they hear them calling out? Oh, my children!" He may well have cried because many of them really were his children. Molyneux wrote of the withdrawal from Eshowe and what they saw the day after the terrible incident with Dunns' Scouts:

'We made an early start, and riding rather nearer the coast so as to pass Dunn's house between the Inyoni and the Tugela, reached Fort Pearson at noon. Dunn's house (or rather houses) was a sorry sight. Everything had been looted or pitched outside: some things had been burned; but what vexed him most was the destruction of all his journals. He took it very stoically, merely observing, "I have not done with the Zulus yet." I only saw John Dunn once again, at Durban; and though invited, I never had a chance of visiting him at his home. Rough things have often been said against one who has 'turned Zulu'; but the account I have given will show, I hope, that he was a genuine man, brave, generous, warm-hearted, and to us on this expedition certainly a host in himself.'

John Dunn lived to the age of 61, dying on 5th Aug 1895. His numerous descendants settled in a 40 sq km reserve near the Tugela river."

Dave.
I have posted the conversation between Dunn and Chelmesford on here previously , I dont know which book it was in, and I'm
not home till tomorrow to try and find it again , iI'll have a quick look but as I have so many books I may not have the time . If your really desperate use the search box by typing in John Dunn , no doubt there will be many entries but that's probably the best way to find it .
Cheers 90th.

"John Dunn was an Englishman, resident in Zululand, where he had lived for many years and adopted - many Zulu customs. He amassed a considerable property, and had an extensive following. He invariably received the greatest kindness and consideration from the Zulu king, and was frequently employed by him in various communications with the English Government. When the danger of war between English and Zulus appeared imminent, John Dunn appealed to the English for protection for himself, his property, and people, who were ready, he said, to fight on the English side. At the same time Cetshwayo sent him a message to the effect that he saw the English were going to attack him, and therefore Dunn had better leave his country, with his people and cattle, and go to a place of safety. This John Dunn did, crossing the Tugela about the 3rd of January, and settling near Fort Pearson".

Source:HISTORY OF THE ZULU WAR AND ITS ORIGIN.BY FRANCES E. COLENSO

I think the Dunn question, boils down to the fact, whatever Dunn did, was to protect his own interests. Undoubtly material thinks we're more important to him, than anything else.

Ulundi wrote:

[i]"John Dunn was an Englishman,

in the same way that Robert Jones VC was an Englishman.
"English" is universally mis-used as a catch all phrase when referring to any country of the UK.

24th wrote:

he took 48 Zulu wives over a period of several years and fathered 117 children by them.

I'm surprised he had time to fight in the war !! , fathering 117 Children .
OH2 .
I dont suppose you can blame Dunn as he had built up some sort of Empire , I doubt he'd want it to come crashing down .
In Dunn's defence , he did tell LC he wished to remain neutral , Obviously L.C wasnt happy with that and did tell him basically , '' if you dont join us things will go badly for you '' or words to that effect . What would you have done ??.
I think he saw the bigger picture and the fact he was responsible for so many lives he didnt have any other choice .
Cheers 90th.

He may have been his own empire, but if it wasn't for Cetshwayo, he Probaly would have died of fever.

""One very cold and stormy night in winter I was seated before a large fire in my hut when there was a noise without as if someone was arriving.
I asked the cause from my attendants and they told me a white man in a miserable state of destitution had just arrived and claimed my hospitality. I ordered the servants to bring him in, and a tall, splendidly made man appeared. He was dressed in rags, for his clothes had been torn to pieces in fighting through the bush, and he was shivering from fever. I drew my cloak aside and asked him to sit by the fire, and told the servants to bring food and clothing. I loved this white man as a brother, and made him one of my head indunas, giving him land and wives, daughters of my chiefs. Now my sun has gone down and John Dunn is sitting by the fire, but he does not draw his cloak aside."

Dave.
I've had a look but cant find the actual wording of the conversation between LC & Dunn . It might also be in Duun's book , unfortunately I dont have it .
90th.

24th .
Dunn tried many times to avert the war by asking Ceteswayo to not take on the British , Dunn was as we know very keen to stay neutral , and Ceteswayo did ask Dunn to not take sides , believing if he Dunn stayed neutral Dunn would be ok , Unfortunately for Dunn, Chelmesford didnt view it that way , in todays talk , it was his way or no way !, he couldnt do much as else . As I said he had many people wives , children and other retainers who relied on him to look after them .
90th.

Hi 24th .
After reading your last post maybe you should read your earlier post on this thread when you had a go at Pascal after he accused Dunn of being a traitor ! . Your post was made Jan 9th 2012 8.21 pm .
90th.

HI all

In any case, there are no pictures, all the Zulus who fought the Zulu royal house after 1879, are manure ...

And in this kind there, Dunn is the icing on the cake,the fly to the top of the pile of manure ...

Cheers

Pascal

90th wrote:

I'm surprised he had time to fight in the war !! , fathering 117 Children .
OH2 .
In Dunn's defence , he did tell LC he wished to remain neutral , Obviously L.C wasnt happy with that and did tell him basically , '' if you dont join us things will go badly for you '' or words to that effect . What would you have done ??.
I think he saw the bigger picture and the fact he was responsible for so many lives he didnt have any other choice .
Cheers 90th.

I agree with 90th, there is enough evidence to show that John Dunn was not happy about the invasion and did what he could to avert it.
As 90th says, "what would you have done?"
Sometimes, the smart move is to be in rather than out, and John Dunn would have been completely powerless to help his beloved Zulu people after the war if he had needlessly and pointlessly martyred himself by making a futile stand against joining Chelmsford, Chelmsford wouldn't have cared either way.
As it was, John Dunn was able to take a position of power and thus have a say and be able to exert his influence for the greater good of the Zulu people, once the war was over.

That Was not happy with LC and basically did tell him,"if you dont join us things will go badly for you'' or words to That effect. What would you Have Done??.


There's always a choice, but to honor the choice must beings ready to die, the family responsabilities are only excuses ...

Besides, this guy there did not meet his real wife (white) he proved ...

This guy did not comply with his wife, it explains what he was able subsequently makes This corresponds with the arranging, history to become a wren...

Cheers

Pascal

Which wife we talking about, he had many..

His first ...

Hi Pascal

Anyway this was a man without honor, his life proved ...

warrior

Come on he had to much to lose. The Britsh gave Dunn an ultimatum, just as they had his King.

If he had the honor, he had fought with the Zulus or he would have left Africa ...

It was just a social climber without scruples, he has never even met his wife white, one sees the kind of guy he was ...

warrior

Pascal,

There's an 1882 cartoon set after Cetshwayo's restoration, the punch-line is "Take the traitor John Dunn to the Dunn John!"

'Jimu

Ian, you're a living encyclopedia on the Zulu War.

Where did this originate from.

" 'One very cold and stormy night in winter I was seated before a large fire in my hut when there was a noise without as if someone was arriving. I asked the cause from my attendants, and they told me a white man in a miserable state of destitution had just arrived and claimed my hospitality. I ordered the slaves to bring him in, and a tall splendidly made man appeared. He was dressed in rags, for his clothes had been torn to pieces in fighting through the bush, and he was shivering from fever and ague. I drew my cloak aside and asked him to sit by the fire, and told the servants to bring food and clothing. I loved this white man as a brother and made him one of my head indunas, giving him lands and wives, the daughters of my chiefs. Now Shaunele (the sun has gone down), and John Dunn is sitting by the fire but he does not draw his cloak aside.'"

Who is this speaking? Cetewayo?

Dont really agree with any of
mr Mahe,s opinion's of Dunn.
after reading Ballards The White
Chief of Zululand .John Dunn
Cetywayo and the Three Generals.
A Zulu King Speaks.Zulu Royal
Feather. i have formed my own opinion
of this extraordinary man. incidentally
his first wife was of mixed race she
was called Catherine Pierce Dunn.his
last wife was called mrs Noyintaba
Dunn she died 6-9-61. i think Dunn
deserves a retrospective rethink.and
for me petty bourgeois morality is a
cheap shot and deserves to be ignored
cheers all Les

He was a very good businessman!

Ulundi wrote:

Where did this originate from.

" 'One very cold and stormy night in winter I was seated before a large fire in my hut when there was a noise without as if someone was arriving. I asked the cause from my attendants, and they told me a white man in a miserable state of destitution had just arrived and claimed my hospitality. I ordered the slaves to bring him in, and a tall splendidly made man appeared. He was dressed in rags, for his clothes had been torn to pieces in fighting through the bush, and he was shivering from fever and ague. I drew my cloak aside and asked him to sit by the fire, and told the servants to bring food and clothing. I loved this white man as a brother and made him one of my head indunas, giving him lands and wives, the daughters of my chiefs. Now Shaunele (the sun has gone down), and John Dunn is sitting by the fire but he does not draw his cloak aside.'"

From the Life of Frederick Courtenay Selous, D.S.O., capt. 25th Royal fusiliers (1919)   

"I had known Cetawayo formerly, and when he was confined in Robben Island shortly after the conclusion of the war, I thought I would go down one day when I was in Cape Town and have a chat with him. I found him much as I had known him, but more corpulent and somewhat depressed. After some general conversation I said:

"'Well, Cetawayo, what do you think of John Dunn now?'

"This I knew was a sore point with the king, for he had treated John Dunn like a brother and given him wives, slaves and lands as one of his own head indunas. Dunn had[129] afterwards deserted him and given all his help and information to Sir Garnet Wolseley.

"Cetawayo thought deeply for a few moments, and then said, 'One very cold and stormy night in winter I was seated before a large fire in my hut when there was a noise without as if someone was arriving. I asked the cause from my attendants, and they told me a white man in a miserable state of destitution had just arrived and claimed my hospitality. I ordered the slaves to bring him in, and a tall splendidly made man appeared. He was dressed in rags, for his clothes had been torn to pieces in fighting through the bush, and he was shivering from fever and ague. I drew my cloak aside and asked him to sit by the fire, and told the servants to bring food and clothing. I loved this white man as a brother and made him one of my head indunas, giving him lands and wives, the daughters of my chiefs. Now Shaunele (the sun has gone down), and John Dunn is sitting by the fire but he does not draw his cloak aside.'"

Vxhosa2000 when you live among a people for years, we do not fight, it's the least politeness ...

Simple conduct towards his wife (his real) shows the kind of guy he was ... 

Mr Mahe i suspect your knowledge of
Mr John Dunn is at best sketchy which
is a pity because it precludes any
rational discourse between us. like i
said " best to ignore " no disrespect
intended. regards Les

No problems xhosa2000 will that I will not waste time ...

And any ways you know me a little, like some, you would know that your opinion I walk in.

cool thanks? for that.best wishes Les.

Yes, talk Still, it interested me  

xhosa2000 wrote:

cool thanks? for that.best wishes Les.

Hey Pascal you have met your match:D 

Pascal. What do you think John Dunn should have done? I would be interested to know.

I would have expected him to remain neutral! If he wasn't prepaired to remember when he fell on hard times.

That was completely impossible.
he was, and rightly, put his adherents
at the four front of any other consider-
ation. your talking about 8000 to 10.000
soles. he must have been driven to
distraction, and of course the British
cared not a jot...cheers Les.

We all know or we should know , as it's been a thread on here earlier this year or late last year , Dunn had no choice but to side with the British ! . Chelmesford , did seek out Dunn who initially wanted to remain neutral , but , when LC basically told him that things wouldnt go well for him if he didnt side with the British , in my humble opinion he didnt have much of a choice did he ? . If indeed he wished to keep what he had built up over the years . I doubt many others would have challenged LC if they were in the same position , he may have possibly lost all his cattle , Land and no doubt everything else he owned , not to mention his standing in the community .
90th