Latest topics | » 1409 Pte David Lloyd, Defender of Rorke's DriftToday at 8:19 am by Julian Whybra » The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snakeYesterday at 9:36 am by Hobbes » Anson A. Mayer/MaherTue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm by cmeghen » Late Father's Militaria CollectionSun Apr 21, 2024 2:16 pm by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:28 am by Eddie » Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native ContingentSat Apr 20, 2024 9:26 am by SRB1965 » Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:04 am by John Young » No. 985. PTE. EDWARD READ. 2-24 Regt. (South Wales Borders).Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:12 pm by Julian Whybra » Private Willis 2/24th Regiment his letter from South AfricaSat Apr 13, 2024 2:49 pm by 1879graves » Sickness among Crealock's menFri Apr 12, 2024 4:52 pm by Hobbes » Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse ArtilleryTue Apr 09, 2024 5:20 pm by Kenny » Brevet Major W.R.B. ChamberlinSun Apr 07, 2024 5:44 pm by Jager1 » Private 1941 Samuel MacClue / McClune 1/24th RegimentSun Apr 07, 2024 3:11 pm by Dash » Sergeant W E Warren RA - VeteranSun Apr 07, 2024 10:50 am by DavidS » "With 6 good riflemen"Sat Apr 06, 2024 5:10 pm by Hobbes » Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:17 pm by SRB1965 » Colonialism: A Moral LegacyMon Apr 01, 2024 11:16 am by Julian Whybra » John Robert DunnSat Mar 30, 2024 12:09 pm by 90th » An early memorial to the Prince Imperial?Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:35 am by John Young » The Poem "A Child Hero" referring to Rupert WeatherleyFri Mar 29, 2024 1:07 pm by Bongo » Writing adviceTue Mar 26, 2024 2:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at largeWed Mar 20, 2024 12:53 pm by Dash » Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu DawnTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Julian Whybra » 100,000 posts!Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?Sat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory » Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra » British rations and moraleMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra » Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private HaganMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and IsandlwanaWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra » William J Hoare 24th Regiment??Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash » Swinburn Carbine issue in AZWThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D » Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young » Philip Price Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra » Alfred Fairlie Henderson Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds |
April 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | | | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snakeWed Apr 24, 2024 3:26 pm by Hobbes » Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native ContingentSat Apr 20, 2024 12:38 am by WeekendWarrior » Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:04 am by John Young » Late Father's Militaria CollectionThu Apr 18, 2024 3:04 pm by A Crockart » Anson A. Mayer/MaherTue Apr 16, 2024 5:28 pm by cmeghen » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:01 pm by Hobbes » Sickness among Crealock's menThu Apr 11, 2024 8:51 pm by Hobbes » Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse ArtillerySun Apr 07, 2024 9:36 pm by Hobbes » John Robert DunnSat Mar 30, 2024 11:47 am by SueSNB |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | MH Rifle or Musket | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
John
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK
| Subject: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 7:29 pm | |
| |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 7:49 pm | |
| from Cetshwayo's coronation 1873, tower musket, flintlock. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 8:50 pm | |
| Is it? looks like a MH. Isn't that a leaver just behind the trigger. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:12 pm | |
| issued in june 1871, mark 1. M-H, not sure how that guy got a state of the art weapon of mass destruction. and it looks like an old brass trigger guard to me. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:18 pm | |
| - xhosa2000 wrote:
- from Cetshwayo's coronation 1873, tower musket, flintlock.
Les. Do we know where that photo originated from, and how the date of the photo was authenticated. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3238 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:28 pm | |
| Littlehand, No that is a muzzleloader, rather than a breech-loader. What you perceive to be a lever is a plate. Here's the full photograph: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Prince Dabulamanzi kaMpande and the retainers, 1873. John Young CollectionJohn Y. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:28 pm | |
| Thanks John was that taken at Cetshwayo's coronation ? |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3238 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:30 pm | |
| Littlehand,
At the British version - yes.
John Y. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:37 pm | |
| Hiya LH, without cracking the books, i was recalling from memory, Prince Dablumanzi and his attendants taken at the coronation of Cetshwayo sept ist 1873. there are more knowledgeable people on here than me, so your and Johns question will be definitively answered. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 pm | |
| Thanks JY, british version indeed. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Tue May 20, 2014 10:24 pm | |
| just thinking the prince'd firearm looks interesting!. |
| | | barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: Prince dabulamanziand his entourage Wed May 21, 2014 6:18 am | |
| Hi JohnY, Thanks for a nice picture. The weapons I see in the hand of the prince and his guards appearing either side of him are 12gg db shotguns each. All three with external hammers and forward barrel studs for sling swivels but not used, maker as yet unidentified , but probably Brit. The other three in the pic have quite antiquated ball and powder muzzle loading weapons (muskets), probably of .44 cal, and of very dubious efficiency over anything other than 10's of meters. It is not generally known that in the latter part of the 1800's Zululand was a thriving target market for European arms dealers smuggling in and selling dated weapons to the Zulus, many of which were used at Isandlwana and RD. This trade was one way of getting rid of burgeoning European arsenals needing to make space for new technology . It was recorded too that some of the anti-British missionaries in Zululand were acting as a conduit in this illegal trade. This contrabrand was shipped in and brought ashore covertly in longboats through the tidal estuary at St Lucia, where , in the earlier years, there were no controls.
regards
barry |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3238 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Wed May 21, 2014 9:13 pm | |
| Barry, You are 50% correct: one barrel is 12 bore, the other is .450" rifled Henry barrel. In my opinion if that barrel goes bang one might be hard-pushed to tell it apart from a Martini-Henry. Which might account for the conclusion of some of the defenders that the Zulu had Martini-Henrys. It is what was known as a "Cape Gun" here's an advert' for one from 1877: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Bland's Cape Gun. John Young Collection.The lad seated in the European jacket is holding a Royal Navy Pattern Brunswick rifle, the giveaway on that is the loop on the trigger-guard. The calibre was .79" sighted up to 300 yards (274 metres). The other two appear to be armed with the 1838 rifled musket which was .753" in calibre. Fixed sights - aim and hope! John Y. |
| | | 6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Wed May 21, 2014 11:03 pm | |
| - barry wrote:
It is not generally known that in the latter part of the 1800's Zululand was a thriving target market for European arms dealers smuggling in and selling dated weapons to the Zulus, many of which were used at Isandlwana and RD.
I think this is generally known by anybody who has ever heard of John Dunn (not that he was the only gunrunner but he's certainly not an obscure person during this period.) One of the most frequent comments I see on this topic is that many muskets bore the Tower mark. |
| | | barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: Dabulamanzi and his weapons Thu May 22, 2014 4:02 am | |
| Hi JohnY, Thanks for the add on the Cape Gun. Indeed, if the weapons x 3 were side-by-side combos, one barrel with a 557/ .450 inch barrel , firing the Government .450 boxer cartridge, and the other, the right barrel a 12gg tube , I too doubt whether one could tell the difference between the ..450 being fired, or an Mh. However, if may be that those weapons were not the run-of-the-mill, in Zulu hands. I still feel that the chances are high that a number of Mh's were in being used by the enemy at RD. Out of interest I have saved the picture for further analysis as I believe one of the musket calibres could be smaller than quoted.
regards
barry
Last edited by barry on Fri May 23, 2014 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | Neil Aspinshaw
Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Thu May 22, 2014 8:45 am | |
| Its unlikely that any of these would chamber Government boxer cartridges in 1873 as the 577/450 had not been issued officially to the troops yet, and that ammunition which would have been would be early Mk1 cartridge, which was extensively trialled but discontinued in favour of the MKII, the MkIII cartridge was not issued until October 1873. Even in the early-mid 1870's the Martini was still a rare animal, official issue under general order to the army was October 1874, and even as late as October 1875, troops embarking for India were exchanging rifles as they embarked to the continent. (I have a copy of the official document). So was the calibre in large scale supply, even before tensions began to rise?, unlikely. I posted a link to Brian Knapps excellent article on the issue of the Swinburn rifle and Carbine a while back to the Natal irregulars, but even still by late 1878 the Snider, the Calisher and the Monkey tail were outnumbering service calibre weapons 5:1. As Barry mentioned the "Cape Guns" were very popular, but likely to be in .450 boxer Henry long cartridge pic on my webpage [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for the trials MH, or .577 snider John not sure about the Navy Brunswick, the barrel is exposed and the rod is held in rod tubes, need my magnifying glass, only 100 were made at Enfield, if so a rare animal. |
| | | barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: The Cape Gun Fri May 23, 2014 3:24 pm | |
| Hi Neil, Some checking reveals that the l/h rifled barrel of this weapon was indeed chambered for 577/.450 and seemed to have been available in 1879. It was intended as a sporting gun for use in Africa, so not too many of them would have been around. However ,there were European manufactures making their own almost identical versions of this English gun made by Thomas Bland, who had his works in London. Looking at some detailed pictures of the leaf sighting arrangements I would go so far as to say that achieving sub caliber groupings at 100m, so as to achieve accurate tight body shots at 300m, as at Rd, would not have been possible as this was a big game weapon for use at very short ranges and ideal for shooting elephants in the head at 50m.
regards
barry |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3238 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: MH Rifle or Musket Sat May 24, 2014 8:40 pm | |
| Neil,
I got the identification of the Brunswick decades ago for a protégé of Fred Myatt, I wasn't going to question someone who had studied under him.
John Y. |
| | | | MH Rifle or Musket | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |