Durnford was he capable. 3

Hell this pains me, but yes I agree with impi. Durnford left the camp moving at a fast pace leaving behind a slow moving Rocket Battery. Why on earth did he take them?

Cheers

It shouldn't pain you. If that's the case, then That,s the case. Just because impi posted it, it doesn't mean he's wrong.

Quid mea vexarii

Durford obeyed his orders to the letter.
he was ordered to move up with with
all his force which included the RB, you
have to think that he would have expl-
ained to Russel his forward movement.
cheers

Les I fully agree. However even a full explanation still means that Russell was trudging through unfamiliar hostile territory with very little back up. My question is and always has been why did Durnford want them along? If he did have a reason then why did he leave them behind. Not one of Young Anthonies better moments Im afraid.

Cheers

I believe in the opposite direction to where LC was Located.

Chard
Not exactly opposite but certainly different, Chelmsford went due East Durnford North East then North.

Cheers

hiya springbok, as usual good point.
the RB had only arrived at the camp
and was told off to be ready to move
in 15 minutes..they had been trudging
after D for days. and i dont think for
1 moment that he wanted them with
him, dragging him back,so he leaves
Russel lagging behind with an escort..
while he rode off, and we know what
they all encountered. poor Russel.yeah
i guess so. cheers mate

Hi Les.

I do have a theory about this, but I do stress that it is only my own thoughts on the matter.

If you recall, Col Durnford requested 2 coys of the 24th which Pulleine declined. He had sent his own mounted men out to try to get better information about the zulu's which had been reported in the area  since the early hours of the morning (long before he arrived). He had also sent scouts to high points on iSandlwana Hill, it was from one of these scouts (Higginson?), that he got a report of zulus retiring, and that a large body of them were heading in the direction of LC. Could it be that he thought that Raw etc, had forced this retirement and that the zulus were now heading towards LC to try to cut him off or attack him, Durnford did remark that "if they are heading towards the general we must stop them at all hazards". Don't forget that no one knew the vast size of the zulu impi that was about to attack the camp, and that this report of zulus retiring could have made Durnford think that they were trying to either join up with the zulus that LC had gone off to attack, or try to outflank LC or even attack him, he had to act on this report. My thought is that he wanted to borrow the 2 coys of the 24th to form a sort of defensive wall along with the RB and the NNC escort, as he was under the impression that Raw etc, had made the zulus move in that direction, so if he rode out with the rest of his men, he could try to get them in a sort of pincer movement between himself and Raw, and try to drive them towards the waiting rocket battery and its NNC escourt, and also the 2 coys of the 24th which he asked the loan of. The zulus would then be getting attacked from both flanks by Durnford and Raw, and also from the front by the RB, NNC and 2 coys of the 24th, then if needs be, they could all have made a gradual fall back to the camp where the waiting men of Pulleine's command could have opened up on the zulus and either defeated them or forced them to surrender. But of course Pulliene (with the advice of Melvill), refused to loan Durnford the 2 coys, so if this theory of mine was what Durnford had in mind, then his plans became scuppered, but he still had to find out what the large body of zulus were up to that had been reported as heading towards LC, he could not afford to let LC be outflanked, cut off or attacked, he had to find out. Little did Durnford know that the large body of zulus heading in the direction of LC were indeed the left horn of the formation, and this is what met him when he rode from the camp. The RB were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time, they had been advised by a carbineer to use a different route (short cut), but had run right into a zulu ambush, the NNC fled and left the RB high and dry, however, it was Durnford that came to the rescue on his fall back to the donga.

It's only a theory of mine, but could the above possibly have been what Durnford had in mind when he asked Pulleine for the loan of 2 coys of the 24th I wonder?

Martin
Well thought out my friend there are a couple of minor issues though.
There was only one company sent to the 'hills', the other was added by Pulleine later in the morning. The distance between the company and the RB was around two kilometres and increasing as the RB moved away. So the concept of getting in front of the impi, turning it then driving it backwards towards the camp is a tad difficult. Best have a look on the maps that Steve published a few days back, shows it all really well.

Cheers
 

6pd
Are you coming back to the 'Gung Ho' theory?
Quite agree about why the RB was attached to Durnford. But in terms of being slow moving, that's discountable as he also had 250 men of D and E companies 1st Battalion NNC under Nourse Stafford and Smythe ( Now there's a name for debate, bugger Jenkins, try and solve that one).
Ive said before, and it seems you agree that the RB was treated with a bit of, definitely impatience, and possibly a touch of disdain. Hence my crit of Durnford for dumping them ( Dumping/ Abandoning?)

Cheers

Hi Springy.

Thanks mate, but which companies do you mean? I am talking about the 2 coys that Durnford asked Pulleine if he could borrow but was refused. I think he may have been toying with the idea for them (along with the RB and its NNC escort), to form a sort of 'wall', so that if he and Raw could form a sort of 'pincer' and drive the zulus towards them, they would be able to open fire on them from the front whilst also being attacked on both flanks by Durnford and Raw, then, if needed, they could all fall back towards the camp where the rest of the troops could also open fire on them and force a defeat or surrender. But Pulleine did not lend the 2 coys to Durnford, so if this was what he had in mind, his plans were scuppered.

6pdr has hit the nail on the head, why was the RB attached to Col Durnford's No 2 column in the first place? It was a mainly a fast moving mounted column, so why on earth attach a slow moving RB to it, I wonder if it was originally intended that Bengough should have had the RB with him?

Cheers mate.

springbok9 wrote:

...the RB was treated with a bit of, definitely impatience, and possibly a touch of disdain.

Yes, I agree.  At best they became an afterthought...much like Chelmsford seems to have treated Durnford.  As they say in the military, "Stuff rolls downhill." Major Russell definitely caught his share...from both Chelmsford and Durnford in my opinion.  It's all part and parcel of a mode of thought and conduct that caused a debacle.

Martin
Yes the two companies Durnford requested. they were to far away from the RB to be of any use.

6pd. Hummmmmmm not to sure about Chelmsford treating Durnford in that manner, can you give me any examples? Lets not forget Chelmsford was a Gentleman and well spoken of in a personal capacity. There are a number of quotes that point to his manners and politeness, he had faults but they were more in his military ability rather than character.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Lets not forget Chelmsford was a Gentleman and well spoken of in a personal capacity. There are a number of quotes that point to his manners and politeness, he had faults but they were more in his military ability rather than character.

I did not intend to disparage Chelmsford's manners. It IS my belief that the General could have achieved his aim of reining Durnford in without threatening to relieve him...particularly as that would have been cutting off his nose to spite his face, as both parties surely realized.

But really I am simply piggybacking on Ian Knight's argument that as Chelmsford was breakfasting that morning, Durnford was probably not much on his mind. Just as Chelmsford was not focused on Durnford's activities that morning, the Colonel was not focused on the RB that morning.

It is perhaps too convenient to argue that the nature of their commands, Irregulars vs. Regulars, may have also contributed in some subconscious way to their respective attitudes as well; but regardless, it is the senior officer who sets the tone...in this case perhaps one of "benign neglect."

Martin ( great posts by the way )
springbok ( as always ) 6pdr, i'm
always interested in what you say.

the rb was treated like crap..no.
it was treated like any other unit,
it did what his commander ordered
no more, no less. it certainly was
not ' ambushed ' the Zulu were not
lying in wait for it, the Zulu's were
Attacking the camp,they were
in the way..momentarily..for any
to survive is lucky in the extreme.

in theory the rockets were designed
for use against native's, the noise
of them shrieking and whistling was
supposed to put the fear of god in
them.huh! the Zulu were made of
much sterner stuff, they very quickly
learned how to duck.lol. xhosa

Quote:
Nourse Stafford and Smythe ( Now there's a name for debate, bugger Jenkins, try and solve that one).

Surprised no body took this one up?

Cheers

Springbok. Who's this "Smythe Chap" what part does he play!

impi
That's the thing, nobody really knows. He was part of the 1/1 NNC and quoted in reports as being a survivor of isandlwana. But there is no mention in any suvivors reports of him. Interesting bit of research for some body.

Cheers

Then how is he connected with Isandlwana.

2 ways
He was allocated to the NNC and he was reported as a survivor, but no mention of him on site.

Springbok, who made the report?

Pete there was an edition of The Times of Natal printed with all the survivors named, cant recall the date of it but I will look it up tomorrow.
Cheers

You still struggling through those donga's. 

CTSg  

The mention of Smyth being a survivor was in the lists posted in The Times of Natal, 15th August 1879. I cant find anymore for him from that point on. I suspect the reference is to Captain D.M. Smythe.
Up to the computer fundies to see what they can find.

Anyone up for the challenge?

Cheers

Hi Springy .
If anyone would know about Smythe it'd be Julian , as he hasnt commented maybe he has nothing as well ? . I havent looked at Englands Sons have you ? . I can tell you Julian may not have commented on Smythe as I found this in ' For God , Queen & Colony ' by Terry Sole ...NNC 1 / 1 Regt , Smythe D.M. Late 79th Regt . Shortly after Isandlwana he returned to the UK . He was not present at Isandlwana .
Cheers 90th.

[quote="springbok9"]CTSg  

The mention of Smyth being a survivor was in the lists posted in The Times of Natal, 15th August 1879. I cant find anymore for him from that point on. I suspect the reference is to Captain D.M. Smythe.
Up to the computer fundies to see what they can fi

Anyone up for the challenge?

Cheers[/quote
Hello,
See the section " thé one's thé books forgot".
Topic Dm smythe 1/1 NNC.
1879 graves / post sat 6 april 2013
Cheers

Hi 90th
yeah Im starting to think that it was a typo from the Times.
He was designated to the 1/1 NNC, Order 209, dated 28th November 1878.
The posting was confirmed in the same order.
That's as far as Ive got with nothing afterwards.

Cheers

YMOB
Thanks, I have all of that, my queerie is though his service in Zulu land. He was awarded SAGS with clasp so he crossed the border, I assume with his regiment. But after that???????

Cheers

90th wrote:

Hi Springy .
If anyone would know about Smythe it'd be Julian , as he hasnt commented maybe he has nothing as well ? . I havent looked at Englands Sons have you ? . I can tell you Julian may not have commented on Smythe as I found this in  ' For God , Queen & Colony ' by Terry Sole ...NNC 1 / 1 Regt , Smythe D.M. Late 79th Regt . Shortly after Isandlwana he returned to the UK . He was not present at Isandlwana .
Cheers 90th.

Hello 90th and Springbok,
For Mister Julian Whybra, D.M. SMYTHE is a survivor of Isandhlwana ( p. 11 note K / " England's Sons"- 7th edition- Septembre 2010)
Cheers.
Frédéric

But that's not all of Julian's work, Julian is just adding to it,

Hi Springy .
This Smythe discussion seems to have hijacked this thread it should possibly have its own thread , Pete hopefully will oblige .
I checked the Forsyth Medal Roll and didnt see Smythe listed ! .
Cheers 90th.

C
hard1879 wrote:

But that's not all of Julian's work, Julian is just adding to it,

What do YOU man?
Mister Whybra is a serious and meticulous researcher.

90th wrote:

Hi Springy .
This Smythe discussion seems to have hijacked this thread it should possibly have its own thread , Pete hopefully will oblige .
I checked the Forsyth Medal Roll and didnt see Smythe listed ! .
Cheers 90th.

Hell learnt the conversation hijack trick from my wife.  

90th
See what I mean about Captain Smyth being elusive?
Hes listed under Englands Sons and The Times. But no mention of him being there. I have a report, newspaper that says he earned his medal, rather he was decorated, yet Forsyths doesn't list him?

Now if that lots not worth investigating what is?
Cheers

 

Captain David Murray SMYTHE 1st battalion, 1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent, was present at Isandhlwana.

Left no account of Isandhlwana.  Mentioned as a survivor in the Times of Natal, 15th August 1879.  He had been appointed as a captain in the 1st bn/1st Regt. N.N.C. (General Orders No. 203, dated 21st November 1878, Times of Natal 25th November 1878).  His position in No. 2 Column remains unclear.  Smythe was commissioned in the Black Watch (Royal Perthshire Rifles) in 1870 and joined the 79th Regiment (Cameron Highlanders) as a sub-lieutenant on 8th May 1872.  He retired from that regiment on 23rd January 1878 as a lieutenant (The London Gazette issue no. 24545, published 22nd January 1879) and then served with the N.N.C. in the Zulu War (he held the South Africa Medal with Clasp 1878-9).  He rejoined the 3rd bn, Black Watch as a captain on 29th June 1880 and finished as a lieutenant-colonel commanding the battalion until 1897.  He was born 17th November 1850, married Katharine Jane Bagot 10th February 1898 (having one daughter, Barbara), and died 17th September 1898. The two regimental museums hold no material relating to his Zulu War experiences. There is a photograph in Tullibardine, Marchioness of & Macdonald, Jane C.C., A Military History of Perthshire, 1899-1902, (Perth, 1908), p. 107.
Two coys of the 1/1st NNC were disbanded a week before Isandhlwana.  40 native privates were dispersed between the two coys (Nourse and Stafford's) at Isandhlwana.  The NCOs were split up between all the coys.  The two officers Dymes and Smythe had unassigned roles (or rather their roles are not yet known).
There's nothing unusual in his not being in Forsyth's medal roll. Forsyth left dozens of names out and included many non-existent or duplicate names.

Hi Julian
That encapsulates all the info I presently have. There are though a few areas of interest. There is no reference in Forsyth of him having been awarded the medal and clasp.
To have got this he would have had to have crossed into Zulu land. But I cant find any attachment to any other regiment. The logic tells me it would have been another NNC battalion, but he seems to have just disappeared as there is virtually nothing between the disbandment and his popping up in Scotland. Ive checked through the Local orders and cant see any mention apart from his initial appointment to the 1/1 NNC. so any attachment would seem to be an adhoc thing.
Interesting conundrum.

Cheers

I suspect that Smythe may have become ill and like Much and Hartley been invalided home. With the 'demise' of his coy he may even have been released from the terms of his appointment in the NNC.

If that's the case he wouldn't have been entitled to his medal and clasp. So possibly the News paper reports of him got that wrong?

Cheers

Why do you say that? If he served during 1878 and fought at Isandhlwana wouldn't he have been entitled to the 1878-9 clasp?

Hi Julian.
Thanks for your input much appreciated , although Terry Sole's book states Smythe wasnt at Isandlwana . I agree the Forsyth Roll isnt the be all and all in it's accuracy . It's a pity the majority of the Colonial Records from the AZW were pulped in England during 1915 from memory , who knows what may have been available to future historians / researchers if this hadnt been the case  
90th.  

90th
I'm aware Sole does state that but it doesn't say how he reached that conclusion.
On the other hand he was in the 1/1st, his name appears in a survivors' list, and his descendants have always understood that he was present at the battle.

Julian
The comment is based on my not having read or heard any mention of him. To be a survivor he would by definition had to have been at isandlwana. ergo not out with Chelmsford. That leaves him two possibilities with the NNC, Mounted or not. The mounted troops are pretty well discussed and named. With the balance, Krohn, Lonsdale are mentioned from the 1/3rd Regiment and from the 2/3 Barry, Erskine and Murray ( even though Murrays position was debatable) all the Captains seem accounted for. But no Smyth. If he did escape, again no mention of him on the trail or Fugitives Drift, and where did he go? No mention of Helpmakaar or RD?
There doesn't seem to be any proof, circumstantial maybe, that puts him any where in Zulu land. One report in the Times of Natal, One obituary, am I missing some thing?

Cheers

ymob wrote:

C hard1879 wrote:

But that's not all of Julian's work, Julian is just adding to it,

What do YOU man?
Mister Whybra is a serious and meticulous researcher.

Chard is saying, JW might not have been the one that added his name to the list I'd survivors. It could have been Holmes.

I trust we are all aware that Englands Sons author is JW.

It will have been based on the work of several authors including the inimitable Norman Holme.

Impi
Jackson has that honour.  Read 'Isandhlwana: the sources Reconstructed', 1965.  I did the follow-up work re the details posted above.

Springbok
That's true. But what we have on many of the survivors is very thin to say the least. The one thing in Smythe's favour is that normally where the colonial newspapers have made an error either in a casualty or a survivors list, particularly where a colonial unit is concerned, they are quick to correct it. No doubt you will have seen this yourself in these papers. And there's nothing subsequently about Smythe being erroneously included as a survivor.
In my personal opinion, I imagine Smythe was with Durnford as a supernumerary staff officer, assisting Shepstone, until a more permanent role could be assigned to him.
Not having an assigned role or a responsibility on the 22nd would be one good reason why he was able to escape. Another would be ownership of a horse!

MISCELLANEOUS The Graphic; June 28, 1879, P.622
Sir Theophilus Shepstone, the Commissioner for the Transvaal, was among the passengers on board the “Balmoral Castle,” which arrived from Cape Town on
Monday. He was interviewed by a correspondent of the “Daily Telegraph,” who
reports that His Excellency, who is in good health, had been called home by the
Government, but was unaware of the reason. Sir Theophilus thinks that Sir Bartle
Frere will be glad at the appointment of Sir Garnet Wolseley, as it will relieve him of
enormous responsibilities. He expressed doubts of the genuineness of Cetewayo’s
overtures for peace, but none of the ultimate triumph of the British arms. Captain
Smythe, of the Native Contingent, who escaped from Isandlwhana, has also returned to England. He thinks that Colonel Durnford was chiefly responsible for that disaster, and that owing to the difficulties of transport a speedy end to the war cannot be hoped for.