Durnford was he capable. 3

Sorry Frederic, missed your comments about Durnfords experience. He was a serving officer for 31 years had commanded various detachments in a variety of circumstances. He had very successfully raised the Mounted Contingent virtually single handed, so yes a highly experience officer.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Hi Frederic
Always good that people have differing opinions, but what Ian didn't mention is the comments by Shepstone. There are therefore two contemporary accounts then that do not hold Durnford in good light and the report from one of his keenest supporters doesn't tell a story of focus and professionalism. Again as pointed out look at his treatment of the carbineers that warned him, very pompous and an 'im in charge' attitude, the survivor from the Rocket Battery being told to go back for Russell. His grumpiness in talking of his own scouts. That's a man with problems Im afraid.

Cheers

Springbok,
I know the comment made by Theophilus.
As you know, Henderson had family relations with  Shepstone family.
George Shepstone the son of Theophilus was a former member of the Natal Carbineers.
If George thought that Durnford was "incapable" why he joined his staff?
Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Sorry Frederic, missed your comments about Durnfords experience. He was a serving officer for 31 years had commanded various detachments in a variety of circumstances. He had very successfully raised the Mounted Contingent virtually single handed, so yes a highly experience officer.

Cheers

As Pulleine!
 Less than some other officers of 24th (Centane).
Cheers

And was the knowledge gained at Centane put to use?

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

And was the knowledge gained at Centane put to use?

Cheers

Mate,
It's you who had said DURNFORD had experience, not me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So please answer to your question!  
His various detachments were "engineers detachments" not "fighting detachments".
He was not an "infantry" officer!
Personnaly, i think that  in all the wars, the experience of the fight is always useful...
Amitiés

I said that and stand by it, 31 years of leading men is a vast amount of experience no matter which way you look at it. Your quite right combat is a valued experience no doubt, but that length of time leading men? QBE.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

I said that and stand by it, 31 years of leading men is a vast amount of experience no matter which way you look at it. Your quite right combat is a valued experience no doubt, but that length of time leading men? QBE.

Cheers

Yes, i look at it, but (for me) nothing replace the experience of the fight.
I think that you are voluntarily provocative about DURNFORD. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I am curious to know your point of view for George SHEPSTONE...
Cheers

Provocative? Moi?   
You don't think Durnfords actions after Langalibalele were of any consequence? the Phutile and Hlubi actions for instance?
  

Parfois il est bon de remuer le pot, non?   

Cheers

Meanwhile...what was Saintly Pulleine and Melvill Doing?...

springbok9 wrote:

Parfois il est bon de remuer le pot, non?   

Cheers

Mate,
Totally agree!
"Chelsmfordtheescapgoat" is the specialist of this forum!!!      
I am also curious to know your point of view on this question:
Before the arrival of DURNFORD at Isandhlwana, PULLEINE made nothing to know the intention of the Zulus.
If DURNFORD had only in mind to scout the area (not to fight), do you think that the result would be the same, the discover of the Zulu army and the attack of the camp?
Amitiés.

Ah, who was it said " Therein lays the rub."

Cheers

and your forgetting BRP Durnford was magnificient and brave in the extreme!
if anybody reads the full account Honestly!!.

springbok9 wrote:

Ah, who was it said " Therein lays the rub."

Cheers

Springbok
I think that there lives the weakness of "your attack" against DURNFORD.  

Sad tale for the the Hlubi and Phutile people...
But, one more, he was not the only responsable (PINE, Natal Carbineers, SHEPSTONE...).

Xhosa mon ami,
" Durnford was magnificient and brave in the extreme!".
Nobody had said that DURNFORD wasn't brave in the extreme.
It's not the subject of the questions from Springbok.  
A bientôt.

hey Frederic, good afternoon, yes i understand that! it is you and springbok!
my comments are in general.   

springbok9 wrote:

look at his treatment of the carbineers that warned him, very pompous and an 'im in charge' attitude,Cheers

The Carbineers ("troopers") didn't respect the military protocol (senior officer)!
A sacrilège in the Imperial Army!
Cheers

xhosa2000 wrote:

hey Frederic, good afternoon, yes i understand that! it is you and springbok!
my comments are in general.   

Mon ami,
It's not Springbok and me !?!?!
It's the subject of the last analysis made by Springbok (againt DURNFORD)!!!!!
The questions from Springbok about DURNFORD (first post 14/08/2014)
Amitiés.

Frédéric

ymob wrote:

springbok9 wrote:

Hi Frederic
Always good that people have differing opinions, but what Ian didn't mention is the comments by Shepstone.
Springbok,
I know the comment made by Theophilus.
As you know, Henderson had family relations with  Shepstone family.
George Shepstone the son of Theophilus was a former member of the Natal Carbineers.
If George thought that Durnford was "incapable" why he joined his staff?
Cheers

Springbok,
Sorry, but you had missed my question about George SHEPSTONE.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Hi Frederic
Sorry getting confused.
Firstly the two action areas I spoke of Phutile and Hlubi, Durnford was involved in both as a protagonist.
Second I did see your comment on George Shepstone but hadn't got around to responding, I shall a little later, but as you know George was involved with Durnford at Bushmans pass.
Third
"The Carbineers ("troopers") didn't respect the military protocol (senior officer)!" I don't understand your point, they were sent to warn Durnford who then in turn wanted them to get Scott to support him ( this after failing earlier to get Pulleine to give him troops ) The Carbineers quite rightly pointed out Scotts orders precluded his compliance and Durnford then berated them. I don't see the Carbineers being at fault, I do see Durnfords show of pique ( temper tantrum?).
You believe Durnford was in the right to do that? And later his treatment of Private Johnson? Sorry but that isn't the way of a a rational man.
Weakness in my argument????? Attack on Durnford???? Never an attack or argument, merely forwarding material for debate. And still haven't had a solid point raised.     
Les
Open debate my friend feel free to pitch in. My comment earlier of 'Therein lays the rub' was actually a reply to your comment on Pulleine and Melvill.

Cheers

Sorry Frederic, i was not being so literal, k Frank i know that.    .
as an side i shopped twenty mins ago on a site new to me, studio,
its on this homepage already, for any parkers who really must know!
it was the navy quillted one. this net thing destroys any notion of
privacy. put a chip in our heads and be done with it!

Springbok,
Sorry, getting confused me too.
-Answer to your Point 1: DURNFORD did not participate with his troops in the "massacres" and gained later the respect of the natives.
-Answer to your point 3. The military protocol between "troopers" and "senior officers was not the same as today.
I have read somewhere (Mike SNOOK?) was the"contestation" of the two Carbineers was in these conditions, audacious, "rash".
The author supposed that the "troopers" belonged to the "upper-classes" of the Natal society.
So the question is not that i think today (I.E:You believe Durnford was in the right to do that?)...but which were the rules at this time.
I confess that I do not understand the treatment of JOHNSON by DURNFORD and I am polite...but i repeat, i am not an senior officier of the Victorian army.
The last point: ("Weakness in my argument?????").I am sorry. I have misunderstood your remark to Less [Therein lays the rub'].I believed wrongly that you agreed with my observation relative to the action of DURNFORD ("scout the area not to fight" with the same result: the discover and the attack of the zulu army]
Cheers Camarade

xhosa2000 wrote:

Sorry Frederic, i was not being so literal, k Frank i know that.    .
as an side i shopped twenty mins ago on a site new to me, studio,
its on this homepage already, for any parkers who really must know!
it was the navy quillted one. this net thing destroys any notion of
privacy. put a chip in our heads and be done with it!

Les,
I am relieved (I.E: for the first sentence   )
Amitiés.

frédéric

springbok9 wrote:

but as you know George was involved with Durnford at Bushmans pass.
Cheers

As Charles RAW, an officer as you know of DURNFORD...
Cheers.

Frédéric

Sorry Frederic
Johnson was the member of the Rocket Battery that Durnford found on the plain and told him to go back and help Russell and then, even though he had a spare horse rode of without him.

Cheers

Shepstones an interesting man. He did take part in the Bushmans Pass incident and was the man that went back to collect the bodies. He must have thought enough of Durnford to volunteer to serve with him in the Zulu War. He was in fact pretty loyal to him, and when he got separated from Durnford still went to look for him.
In terms of his stand on the back of the mountain Im not to sure that he was holding back the right horn, I really think that by the time he got to the saddle the right horn was already there. Ive still got it in the back of my mind that he could have fought to the saddle with Younghusband and then carried on around the side of the mountain when younghusband decided to make a stand.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Sorry Frederic
Johnson was the member of the Rocket Battery that Durnford found on the plain and told him to go back and help Russell and then, even though he had a spare horse rode of without him.

Cheers

Frank,
:scratch:Oh, no, no, no!!! I get you perfectly. I know who is JOHNSON, a survivor of isandhlwana.  
My answer on this subject wasn't clear????
On this point, i am agree with you....but i prefer to stay careful. I am not an officier of the Victorian army.
In others words, do you think that Durnford would have the same behavior with Fanny (and his wife) today? It is not the same time, the same values...
Cheers

ymob wrote:

Hello Springbok,

You often say about DURNFORD" he had the experience".
The experience of fighting??? The "Langibele affairs" is his only experience...  
Cheers

And he cocked that up!!!   

springbok9 wrote:

Shepstones an interesting man. He did take part in the Bushmans Pass incident and was the man that went back to collect the bodies. He must have thought enough of Durnford to volunteer to serve with him in the Zulu War. He was in fact pretty loyal to him, and when he got separated from Durnford still went to look for him.
Cheers

Springbok,
So, we have two men (RAW and SHEPSTONE) who served with him at Bushmans pass, and later agreed to become Officers under his commmand;
It is for me a valid point on the capacities of DURNFORD (for these men).

ymob wrote:
Hello Springbok,

You often say about DURNFORD" he had the experience".
The experience of fighting??? The "Langibele affairs" is his only experience... scratch
Cheers

And he cocked that up!!! Rolling Eyes ...err, no impi..that would be ' the bent pine. '

Whatever you say young Les, whatever you say  

Les if you want to copy someone's post, just hit the quote button, add you message below.

Impi,

Who was responsible for the panic at Bushman's River Pass, it most certainly was not Anthony Durnford, let him answer in his own words:

Major Anthony William Durnford wrote:

Having reached the Bushman's Pass at 6.30 a.m., on the 4th November, with one officer, one sergeant, and thirty-three rank and file of the Carbineers, and a few Basutos, I at once formed them across the mouth of the pass, the natives in charge of cattle already in the mountain flying in every direction.  Possibly there may have been one hundred at the outside, about half of whom were armed with shooting weapons.  Having posted my party, I went with my interpreter to reassure the natives.  Calling for the chief man, I told him to assemble his people, and say that Government required their Chief, Langalibalele, to answer certain charges; that his people who submitted to Government should be safe, with their wives, children, and cattle; that all loyal people should go to Estcourt, where Mr. Shepstone, Minister for Native Affairs, was, and make submission, and they should be safe.  My interpreter was recognised as one of Mr. Shepstone's attendants, and the Induna thanked me in the name of the people, saying they would all go down and tell my words to the tribe, who were not aware of the good intentions of Government and were afraid.

I told them to take their cattle and go down.  The Chief said they would, but begged me to leave them, as he could not answer for the young men, who were excited, and might injure me.  I left him exerting himself, so far as I could judge, in carrying out my wishes.

Seeing that the natives were getting behind stones commanding the mouth of the pass, I turned their position by sending my small party of Basutos on the one side, I taking half the Carbineers to the other - the other half guarding the mouth of the pass.  All were then in such position, that had a shot been fired, I could have swept the natives down the pass.  Their gestures were menacing, but no open act of hostility was committed.

 About this time I was informed that many men were coming up the pass, and, on reaching the spot, found it was the case.  On ordering them back, they obeyed sullenly.  Matters now looked serious, and I was informed by the senior officer of volunteers present that the Carbineers, many of whom were young men, could not be depended upon.  They said they were surrounded, and would be massacred.  I have reason to believe that this panic was created by their drill instructor, an old soldier of the late Cape Corps, up to whom they naturally looked.  Upon this, as the only chance of safety, and in hopes of saving men's lives, although perfectly aware that it was a fatal line of policy, I drew in my outlaying party, and gave the order to retire.  There was nothing else to be done.  I had no support.  As I was about to retire by alternate divisions, the first shot was fired by the natives, followed by two or three, when, seized with panic, the Carbineers fled, followed by the Basutos.

My interpreter and three Volunteers were killed.  There were probably two hundred natives present at the time the  first shot was fired.  The firing was never heavy, and their ammunition soon became exhausted.  The orders I received were "not to fire the first shot." I obeyed.              

A.W. DURNFORD,

Major Royal Engineers.

He obeyed his orders that those around did not should not reflect on him.

John Y.

  His own words! Come on John it's not the 1st of April   

What was it Durnford supposed to have shouted to his men near the end of the Battle of Isandlwana. ?

Duck!

Simeon Kambule, one of Durnford’s native soldiers, recalled that before he left the field he looked back, saw Durnford standing ‘ … in the center of his square with his long moustaches, and one good arm in the air.
He was shouting and laughing,

“Come round me, come round me.   There is no point in running from these people, I know them too well.”

Bushmans Pass.

"Capt Barter, reported to Durnford that he could no longer rely on his men. The apprehension of the Carbineers was aggravated by the vociferous expression of fear for their safety by one of their NCOs, Sergeant Clark. When Durnford sensed that his men were on the point of breaking, he called out dramatically: 'Will no one stand by me?' - whereupon three troopers rallied to his side. Then he gave the order for a slow withdrawal to higher ground."

The more I read about Durnford, the more I'm convinced he had lost the plot!?

will post some audio with vid about that soon.

Les don't get me wrong, Dunford was a brave man, but I don't think it can be ruled out, he didn't have some sort of nervous break down, his life wasn't exactly great was it.

John wrote:

he didn't have some sort of nervous break down

John he had one of those while en route to China in 1865!!!!!

Impi Was it a nervous break down, or just a general break down in health. Both completely different.

How's it different a breakdown, a breakdown end of.

I'm talking nervious breakdown. Mental state of mind!

It was in 1864 his marriage broke down, his health breakdown took place a year later. If you look back at his career prior, he really did have a bad time. He volunteered for the Crimean but was not accepted, much to his disappointment. The question is why was he rejected, even though he had volunteered.?

I'm am down because I'm left behind, but we shall see"  

 

Audio from the DOTDM. i would stand with him!.

At the Battle of Isandhlwana ‘H’ Company fought towards the centre-right of the line, facing north-east and towards the Zulu ‘head’,with Porteous’ ‘A’ Company to its left, and Pope’s ‘G’ Company (2nd /24th Foot) to the right. ‘H’ Company had a good firing position, but as has been well documented, the defence was over-extended. ‘H’ Company’s position became untenable, possibly accelerated byPope’s move to cover Durnford’s retreat. As the line retreated to the camp, the Zulu’s broke through and ‘H’ Company was cut to pieces.

Sad but true!!!!!

Dave wrote:

At the Battle of Isandhlwana ‘H’ Company fought towards the centre-right of the line, facing north-east and towards the Zulu ‘head’,with Porteous’ ‘A’ Company to its left, and Pope’s ‘G’ Company (2nd /24th Foot) to the right. ‘H’ Company had a good firing position, but as has been well documented, the defence was over-extended. ‘H’ Company’s position became untenable, possibly accelerated byPope’s move to cover Durnford’s retreat. As the line retreated to the camp, the Zulu’s broke through and ‘H’ Company was cut to pieces.

Sad but true!!!!!

A small price to pay for getting, credit for the holding open the so called escape gates,   

Trying telling "H Company" that!!!  

Impi,John

I would take alook at Crealock, who we know insisted that he had ordered Durnford to take command of the camp, and in essence disobeying the order to remain defensive. Despite the fact that he was lying about this to cover the reputation of himself and his commander. It was the answer that Chelmsford had looked for to wash his hands clean of responsibility of the disaster and blame the man who could no longer answer for himself. While Crealock himself grasped the opportunity with both hands to rid the plague of responsibility on the command there is little evidence that Chelmsford was a part of the conspiracy other than ‘simply grasped the proffered lifeline’

Hi Springy.

In your reply to Steve you have said "On the 14th May"? are you sure you don't mean 13th Jan?

It could well be that Captain C.D Hay of the NNC might have had a bad opinion about Durnford, however, he does say that "every man was ready to follow him".

Yes, he tells Pulleine that he wont be staying, but surely that doesn't mean that he is spoiling for a fight, that shows that he had interpreted LC's order that the move against the Matyanas was under way, and by telling Pulleine that he would not be staying at the camp, this shows that he was obeying LC's orders and was prepared to support him against the Matyanas.

Yes, when he received the information from Pulleine about zulus in the area, and he saw that Pulleine had done little (if anything) about finding out what they were up to, he also realised that the situation had changed since LC had left in the early hours, he posted lookouts and sent men out to gather information regarding this zulu activity. He received information that zulus were heading in the direction of LC, so what was he supposed to do? He now uses LC's own advice saying that he (LC) "would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it would be injurious to the interests of the column". Well, the information that Durnford had just received about zulus heading in LC's direction, could well have been injurious to LC and the rest of the column he had with him, so he acted on LC's advice and set off to find out what the zulus were up to. He was heard to say, "if they are heading towards the General we must stop them at all hazards". So no, I wouldn't say that he was 'going ahead on his own mission', I would say that he was obeying LC's orders to the letter.

Come on mate, you have been in the mob, you have to have a certain amount of self confidence, and you know as well as I do that you have to be prepared to take responsibility if or when the time comes, ie; if officers and nco's are down, someone has to be prepared to take responsibility and try to get the lads out of a fix. So I don't see your point when you say you think he had a "I know better than you" attitude, however, I think that it showed that he did have a confident manner, and maybe that is why Captain Hay said that "every man was prepared to follow him".

Cheers mate.