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Lt. Melvill: Well done, Sir! Did you see that Noggs? Deceived him with the up and took him with the down. Norris-Newman: Well well, this one's a grandfather at least. If he'd been a Zulu in his prime I'd have given odds against your lancer, Mr. Melvill.
 
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 The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.

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John Young

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PostSubject: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:18 pm

A recently acquired postcard, titled as above, depicting the Zulu War Memorial in Pietermaritzburg.

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The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.
John Young Collection

I just wonder if the adult Europeans in the photograph could have been Zulu War combatants.

The man on the right appears to be wearing a medal.

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Close-up on the men in The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.
John Young Collection

Has anyone seen this photograph before?  If so any clues as the identities of the men in the photograph?

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:31 pm

The chap with the medal looks familiar I'm sure he's on the forum somewhere. John is there a date!
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:46 pm

John,

No there's no actual date, I would hazard a guess that the actual photograph was taken sometime in the 1890's given the style of clothing. The postcard was postally used in March 1904, but that isn't a useful indication of dating the photograph apart from giving us an end date.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:55 am

John Y
Does this help in dating?
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Frank
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:50 am

[quote="Frank Allewell"]John Y
Does this help in dating?
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Frank[/quote records,,] What wonderful old records telling sorry tales, I imagine from archives somewhere. Would there be any records about the memorial and it's costs. 4 British families agreed to fund 500 pounds each in June 1880 for a memorial. Then there was controversy about the cost of the design and in the end changes were made after several sites were proposed and rejected and from memory the new design was in the 2000 pound range. Therein lies a question were the donations received or did the 4 families withdraw their original offer.? If so I wonder why?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:24 am

I'm thinking "Clarke" NMP
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90th

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PostSubject: The Zulu War Monument    Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Hi JY
I think I've seen it previously on ebay ? , I have postcards of the Memorial but not that one , I have read when it was completed , but unfortunately , I dont remember No No
90th
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PostSubject: Dating the picture   Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:43 pm

Hi JY,
IMO this picture was taken shortly post turn of century. 
The building in the background was severely burned in 1893 and it was only fully restored about in 1900. 
The quality of the photography also supports, somewhat ,a  pic date post 1900.

regards

barry
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:52 pm

I don't see the old 6pd, that was fixed in place end 1899 beginning 1900.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:08 pm

Barry,

Thanks for that, I think you have cracked it the naval cannon is behind the guy with the goatee beard on the left.

According to SAMHS see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - that puts it post-1903. My hunch about the style of dress obviously didn't take into account the colonies.

I wonder therefore if the photograph was taken in 1904 to coincide with the 25th anniversary hence the wreaths & garlands.

Frank,

The letter is an interesting find.

More digging to be done.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:58 am

John Y
DEPOT     NAB                                                                  
SOURCE    PWD                                                                  
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/181                                                                
SYSTEM    02                                                                   
REFERENCE PWD1458/1908                                                         
PART      1                                                                    
DESCRIPTION          JT HENDERSON, PIETERMARITZBURG: WITH REFERENCE TO THE GUN IN THE     
           COURT GARDENS ADJACENT TO THE ZULU WAR MEMORIAL.                    
STARTING  19080000                                                             
ENDING    19090000                                                             
REMARKS   JPW1886/1908

Im going into the archives this morning. There are a number of references in both the AG collection and the Jefferies collection. Maybe we can tie it down a bit closer.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:38 pm

Here is a close up of the unveiling ceremony in October 1883. Anybody recognisable?

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:33 pm

John Y
If you can isolate the organising committee for the 25 anniversary you will Im sure have the people posing in the photo. Ive been trying to do that in the archives however ran out of time. The key elements are in PMB archives unfortunately.

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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:41 pm

Just to throw a couple of spanners in the works:
DEPOT NAB
SOURCE PWD
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/169
SYSTEM 02
REFERENCE PWD4747/1906
PART 1
DESCRIPTION ARCHITECT, PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT, PIETERMARITZBURG: VOLUNTEER WAR
MEMORIAL, PIETERMARITZBURG. (1) RE PLAN SHOWING POSITION DECIDED
UPON FOR THE ERECTION OF THE VOLUNTEER MEMORIAL. (2) RE TENDERS FOR
THE ERECTION OF ABOVE IN THE COURT GARDENS, PIETERMARITZBURG.
STARTING 00000000
ENDING 00000000
REMARKS A469/1906 AO4123/1906 CSO6550/1906 T2963/1906 PWD5445/1904
MPW1489/1906 TB130/1906 AG2864/1906 L&W4660/1904 MPW382/1904
PWD4747A/1906.

DEPOT NAB
SOURCE PWD
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/169
SYSTEM 02
REFERENCE PWD4028/1906
PART 1
DESCRIPTION CHIEF ENGINEER, PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT: SITE FOR VOLUNTEER WAR
MEMORIAL.
STARTING 19060000
ENDING 19060000
REMARKS A439/1906 MPW1550/1906 MJ4745/1906 PLACED WITH PWD4747/1906
PWD4955/1906 PWD4549/1904.

DEPOT NAB
SOURCE PWD
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/141
SYSTEM 02
REFERENCE PWD7467/1904
PART 1
DESCRIPTION AGENT-GENERAL, LONDON: FORWARDS BILL OF LADINGS FOR PARTS OF
VOLUNTEER WAR MEMORIAL.
STARTING 19040000
ENDING 19050000
REMARKS R&H731/1904 MPW550/1904 M47/1905 D3040/1904 PWD7746/1904.

The dates are the interesting point.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:50 pm

Different memorial Frank?

There's a monument for the Natal Volunteers, who fought on the British side in the Anglo-Boer War. Unveiled in 1907 and executed by George Wade of London, the monument is crowned by an angel of peace, with four panels below. The panel on the left shows Britannia reading the Boer ultimatum that is implied here to be responsible for the war. The figure to the left is Natalia, hoping that Britannia will come to her rescue. The supporting figures are of Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, while an African crouches at the lower corner in a way that seems inconceivable today but says a great deal about attitudes a century ago. The panel on the right shows St. George slaying the dragon, in this case the Boers. The panels on the other side show a dying hero and Justice with Mercy.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:55 pm

Hi Steve
Sorry didn't make my point clear. That particular monument ( there are others in the gardens ), was dedicated around 1908 Im suggesting Johns photo could have been taken at that dedication. I was looking for potential 'celebration' dates in the Gardens and this one popped up. Just different ideas.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:07 pm

Understood.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:27 pm

Frank,

I think we can discount 1908, see my previous answer - The postcard was postally used in March 1904, but that isn't a useful indication of dating the photograph apart from giving us an end date.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:36 pm

Sorry John not reading posts correctly.
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:31 pm

Frank,

No problem.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:21 pm

I have in my collection an original photo of the Zulu War monument just prior to its unveiling. The unveiling cloth is yet to be removed, and a goodly crowd is waiting in anticipation. I am sorry that my uploading skills prevent me from sharing it with you. Written on the reverse is " Unveiling Zulu War Memorial P. M Burg 1892. Hope thi is of help.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The Zulu War Monument, "Isandhlwana" Day.   Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:47 pm

Hi Wentworth

The close up I posted on Friday is, I think, the same event. You can see the cloth around the base of the monument having just been unveiled. You might be able to send your photo to Admin who could then upload it?

Steve
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