WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lt. Melvill: Well done, Sir! Did you see that Noggs? Deceived him with the up and took him with the down. Norris-Newman: Well well, this one's a grandfather at least. If he'd been a Zulu in his prime I'd have given odds against your lancer, Mr.Melvill.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» What to do with your research when you have passed away.
Today at 10:07 am by John Young

» LEGACY: Heroes of Rorke's Drift' by Kris Wheatley
Today at 10:04 am by louisafilby

» Medal auction
Yesterday at 10:23 am by Gardner1879

» Regimental Paylists
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:37 pm by Bill8183

» Bassage Diary
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:34 am by 90th

» The first battle fought in Africa by the 24th?
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:47 pm by Frank Allewell

» Admiral Sir James Startin, K.C.B., A.M
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:14 am by John Young

» Most Recent Members 2018
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:32 pm by ADMIN

» "ISANDULA COLLECTION"
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:20 pm by ADMIN

» William Allen rededication at Monmouth cemetery. 4th July 2018
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:56 pm by ADMIN

» 25B/778 Pte. Evan Williams
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:52 pm by ADMIN

» British Empire - an Equivocation
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:43 am by xhosa2000

» Isandhlwana survivor of N/5 ??
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:17 pm by Tim Needham

»  John McCoy b. 1844, Ireland d. 11/04/1881, Transvaal, South Africa
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:48 am by anorakABO

» New Version of Snook's Isandlwana Book?
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:56 pm by Julian Whybra

Lt. (Brevet Major) J.R.M. Chard, 5th Field Company, Royal Engineers--Rorke's Drift and Ulundi
(Mac and Shad) Isandula Collection)
Rededication Rorke's Drift Defender William Wilcox. 8th May 2011 Dolton Devon.
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
1879graves
 
rusteze
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
impi
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
rusteze
 
Frank Allewell
 
90th
 
Kenny
 
John Young
 
Julian Whybra
 
xhosa2000
 
Bill8183
 
SRB1965
 
ADMIN
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Original Documents at Kew

Go down 
AuthorMessage
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 9:19 pm

Just returned from a fascinating day at the National Archives at Kew looking at some original documents. This post is not about new discoveries, it is about looking at the original letters and reports that we all see referred to in the books.

The first War Office file I ordered up was titled South Africa: Zulu War : Reports, Statements and proceedings of the Court of Enquiry. It was about 150 loose sheets of manuscript including letters from Chelmsford, reports by Wood and notes by those back in London. What I found really interesting are the comments and scraps of paper attached to the letters, usually by the recipient, and not often included in the printed works. They sometimes give you an insight into what they were thinking in London. Here is an example.

This note was attached to the front of Chelmsford's letter of 20 March 1879 to the Secretary of State for War. The letter is in reaction to what Clery had said at the C of E. It is probably the first letter in which Chelmsford begins to wriggle a little at comments about him not coming to the defence of the camp. It contains the well known references to sending Milne up the hill to look through his telescope and not getting a message that anything was untoward until late in the afternoon.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Copyright National Archives

For those finding it difficult to read it says " Circulate confidentially to Cabinet - not for Gazette. Let it be so marked and also let Colonial Office be warned not to print it at present. Dated21/4/79."

I think it had begun to dawn on those in London what had happened and that the wheels were beginning to come off the wagon for Lord C. Government's first reaction - keep it quiet.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2557
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 9:59 pm

It doesn't appear to say much. I take it your speculating. scratch
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 10:22 pm

Hi CTSG

It doesn't need to say much, but I think it speaks volumes ! But my interpretation I grant you. Why do you think the Secretary of State wanted to keep it quiet?

I think this is Hicks-Beach who had been desperate to stop the ultimatum to Cetswayo, (cooked up by his predecessor Caernarvon and Frere), but he was too late. I think he expected this kind of mess.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2557
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 10:30 pm

It could be referring to just about anything. Being more of a primary source man I couldn't say what they wanted kept quite. It couldn't have been much or it would have been said verbally and not written down.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 10:48 pm

CTSG

It is a primary source (about as primary as you can get) and it is attached to Chelmsford's letter so there is no doubt at all about what it refers to. It is normal for Ministers to write handling instructions on documents, particularly if they think they are sensitive - they don't do it verbally because they want to be able to point to the instruction later to cover their back (particularly if it has been ignored!). Churchill was a prime example - Action this day!. Go on, speculate why he wanted to keep this letter from Chelmsford quiet.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2557
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 11:11 pm

I can't see how you attach it to the COE. Or are you basing it, because it attached to a letter among a 150 loose sheets of manuscript.

You say.
Steve wrote:
"This note was attached to the front of Chelmsford's letter of 20 March 1879 to the Secretary of State for War"

What was the actual letter from LC saying that the , the minute paper was attached to ?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Thu May 21, 2015 11:28 pm

CTSG

Because, it is attached to a letter from Chelmsford which begins " Sir, with reference to my letter of 15th inst forwarding documentary evidence in connection with the occurrences of 22nd January. I have the honour to enclose a statement made by Major Clery on the same subject and remarks by myself on it."   The Secy. of State is saying to the Cabinet - keep this confidential and warning the Colonial Office not to publish it. There really isn't any confusion about what he is referring to - its Chelmsford's letter.  

Steve
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6803
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 71
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Fri May 22, 2015 9:02 am

Interesting browsing through the archives isn't it Steve. I spend hours in the Cape Archives, ever once in a while something of interest turns up.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9620
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 62
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Original Documents at Kew    Fri May 22, 2015 10:34 am

ctsg
I dont think he's implying about the dodgy meal he had the night before ! , certainly you dont need to be a Rhodes Scholar to understand to what he's referring scratch .
90th

Steve / Frank
Yes , Archives can be very interesting , as you have posted on several instances .
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Fri May 22, 2015 10:44 am

Hi Frank/Gary

I enjoy it too. They are very well set up at Kew and I can be there in 40 minutes - motorway permitting. A digital camera lets you copy stuff very easily as well - it only took me about half an hour to copy all 150 pages that I can now study at my leisure.

This was another note in the file that I thought was amusing - nothing much changes in the corridors of power!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Copyright National Archives

I don't know who Cooper was. It reads "These papers have just been returned to me by the Intelligence Branch! Yours try. H Percy Hopkin  10/1/83 - they were borrowed as you will see from Sir Ralph Thompsons room in December 1879."

I imagine that the Intelligence Branch had purloined them to complete the Narrative (published 1881) and conveniently forgotten to return them for three years!

I also managed to copy the NA versions of the two Isandhlwana maps we have been discussing, I will post them later.

Steve
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9620
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 62
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Original Doc's at Kew    Fri May 22, 2015 10:58 am

Salute , excellent work that man Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
90th agree
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Fri May 22, 2015 11:48 am

Sir Ralph Thompson, from whose room the COE documents quoted above had been removed by the Intelligence Branch, was Under Secretary of State for War (the top civil servant at the time). He, like many others in positions of power, had an inclination to keep close wraps on things (he was the equivalent, at the time, to Sir Humphrey in Yes Minister).

Later, when corresponding with Wolseley in India he wrote " Although Disreali had read his (Wolseley's) memorandum he did not want to circulate it to the Cabinet and thinks it should be kept as quiet as possible." The memorandum was about abandoning Turkey and mounting an offensive against Russia in Afghanistan.

Nothing to do with our war I know, but it demonstrates just how much goes on behind the scenes and how easy it is to get a false picture from uninformed sources who are far removed from the centre.

Steve
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9620
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 62
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Original Doc's at Kew    Fri May 22, 2015 12:13 pm

Hi Steve
'' Yes , Minister '' one of the best tv shows of all time , can't tell you how many times I've watched that series over the years , although haven't done so for a while Very Happy Very Happy
90th Joker
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Fri May 22, 2015 8:50 pm

I'm sure that if any of those documents had any real bearing. The likes of Julian Whybra would have found them.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2564
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Fri May 22, 2015 9:03 pm

I'm sure your right my friend. Thank you for your valuable contribution.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6803
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 71
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Sat May 23, 2015 10:38 am

Hi Chard
Not quite mate. There are so many odds and sods just waiting to be discovered, misfiled, miss labelled, buried away. They are there and its going to be the casual browser, like Steve (no insult intended Steve) that isn't following strict procedural research rules that's going to turn them up. And example of that is of Trooper Mayor of RD. His letters had laid in those archives for over a hundred years, it just took a small quirk to start on a path that found them.
In similar lines searching along a path for something totally different I came across a hand written essay on one soldiers experiences on the march and his eye witness description of one of the battles. That should be ready for publication fairly soon as soon as the editor gets his finger out.

The point is theres a hell of a lot out there still to be found, including a report Bromhead wrote the day after the battle. And no it isn't a myth, I have proof that it was written and sent to England, maybe Steve will stumble over it.

Cheers Mate
Back to top Go down
nthornton1979

avatar

Posts : 151
Join date : 2011-01-18
Age : 38
Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Sat May 23, 2015 12:38 pm


Quite right Frank.

I have found several Rorke's Drift accounts that have not yet, to my knowledge ben brought to light. Although not from Kew, it show that information is still out there waiting to be found.

A Bromhead report - Now that would be one heck of a find!

Neil

Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2306
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 38

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Sat May 23, 2015 9:28 pm

"Major Francis Clery, who was garrisoned at Rorke's Drift with Bromhead after the battle wrote,

"The height of Bromhead's enjoyment seemed to be to sit all day on a stone on the ground smoking a most uninviting looking pipe.
The only thing that seemed equal to moving him in any way was an allusion to the defence of Rorke's Drift. This used to have a sort of electrical effect upon him, for he would jump up and off he would go, not a word could be got out of him. When I told him he should send me an official report on the affair it seemed to have a most distressing effect on him"
Back to top Go down
nthornton1979

avatar

Posts : 151
Join date : 2011-01-18
Age : 38
Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Sat May 23, 2015 9:51 pm

Clery admitted reading a report from Bromhead, in a letter to Lady Alison, MAY 1879:-

"When I told him he should send me an official report on the affair it seemed to have a most distressing effect on him. I used to find him hiding away in corners with a friend helping him to complete this account, and the only thing that afterwards helped to lessen the compassion I felt for all this, was my own labour when perusing this composition - to understand what it was all about. So you can fancy that there was not one who knew him who envied him his distinction, for his modesty about him was, and is excessive."



Bourne also spoke of a despatch which may or may not be the 'report':-

"Bromhead wrote a despatch which he (Colour-Sergeant Bourne) had to copy. Not a man's name was mentioned in that despatch. Later, however, it was discovered that Chard was senior, and another despatch was written in which the names were mentioned."

"'The Epsom District Times, Friday, July 29th, 1932."
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6803
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 71
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Sun May 24, 2015 6:46 am

Neil Ive dropped you an e mail
Back to top Go down
nthornton1979

avatar

Posts : 151
Join date : 2011-01-18
Age : 38
Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   Sun May 24, 2015 11:18 am

Thanks Frank.

Replied.

Neil
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Original Documents at Kew   

Back to top Go down
 
Original Documents at Kew
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: