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Lieutenant J.P. Daly, 1/24 Regt.-KIA Isandlwana
[Mac & Shad] Isandula Collection)
The Battle of Isandlwana tactics
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 Bassage Diary

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:13 pm

Trying to be very diplomatic Gary.
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90th

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PostSubject: Bassage Diary   Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:29 pm

Joker Salute
90th

I'll email you some pics of the proposed site , not sure how many I have , I'll send all of them . agree
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:37 pm

Thanks Gary, Ive just had a look. That's right over the firing line that the 'dig' ascertained. Its not on. JY needs to get onto the royal family and create some noise. Bloody nonsensical and downright disrespectful to those thousands of Zulu that died just there.
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90th

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PostSubject: Bassage Diary   Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:27 am

Hi Frank
I,Knight voiced the exact same concerns in a letter of protest months ago , his answer was basically ....'' Thanks , but no thanks ' ! .
I agree it's very disrespectful to those brave Zulu warriors who perished on the 22/ 1 / 79.
90th Mad Rolling Eyes Don\'t agree
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:32 pm

I can't see the photo's for some reason Sad

Does Bassage mention Lt. Dyer at all ? I swear I've read somewhere he does.


Cheers
Sam
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:51 pm

Sam

I quote Bassage.....................

Second visit 23rd June 1879 bodies found in heaps as if great resistance was shown Lieut. & Acting Adjutant Dyer’s body was found surrounded by about eleven men. Sixty four were found in a square. Four companies found. Lying as they fell fighting back to back. G Company 2/24th Regiment with the exception of a few men was found lying in the place where they were posted the previous night as an outlying piquet. In fact the whole sight was of a most horrible nature.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:22 am

Hi Kenny

Many thanks for the quote Salute
It is interesting Bassage says Dyer was found surrounded by 11 men when Wilson Black puts him among the dead with Captain Wardell Question

Cheers
Sam
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:25 am

All
I have quoted from Bassage's notebook in my works. He was the coy clerk for C coy, NOT G coy, and the notebook does contain a roll for C coy which is useful as are some of his other remarks.
I have considered publishing the notebook's contents in a 'Studies in the Zulu War' volume but I have been in a quandary about doing so.
The notebook contains a code and when you crack the code you find that Bassage was NOT a very savoury character.
That side of the notebook reveals nothing about Isandhlwana and can easily receive more attention for its infamy than for the other information it contains (and, in my humble opinion, is best left well alone).
"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here."
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 am

Bonjour Mr Whybra,
You wrote:"The notebook contains a code and when you crack the code you find that Bassage was NOT a very savoury character".
Please, can you say more?
You also wrote "That side of the notebook reveals nothing about Isandhlwana and can easily receive more attention for its infamy than for the other information it contains".
To my knowledge, the notebook contains important informations about the position on the battlefied of G coy 2/24th...
Cheers.
Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 am

Ah Julian, the Bakers dozen of PMB
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:10 pm

Incidentally, as I did not understand the meaning of Frank's message:
"In the Medieval Ages there was a period when bakers began cheating the public at such a rate that public outcry reached the ears of several kings. As bread was a daily staple of Medieval life, the bakers knew that they could charge a lot of money for minimal portions of their products. As such, kings levied laws against bakers stating that they were to lower their pricesand keep honest. In fact the common term "A Baker's Dozen" (meaning 13 instead of 12) came from this time period. Any baker caught selling less than an even dozen was strictly and harshly punished. As a result bakers began adding one extra loaf to be certain their count would be correct or even over the amount decreed by law".
Cheers
Frédéric
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:21 pm

Fred
In reply to your query, Bassage wrote comments about certain members of the coy in code and made marks against their names. He also wrote about certain ladies. Bassage appears to have been bisexual but his coded comments are lewd and his conduct might be called into question.
The code is not difficult to break.
I'm all for drawing attention to Isandhlwana for positive reasons hence my comment about infamy. And of course, Bassage's comments about G coy's location are very important indeed. I am always happy to quote from his notebook, just not to put it into print because of the can of worms it would open.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:28 pm

I totally ignored these "scabrous specificities" relating to the Bassage's notebook.
Thank you very much for the information.
Cheers
Fred
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:38 pm

The French have a wonderful term for it!
'Scabrous specificities'! I must remember that!
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:05 pm

Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:36 pm

Strangly enough in my naivety I miss read two of those comments to read Bugler and was taken to task by 90th and Steve.
"le mal soit à celui qui mal interprète"
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:59 pm

Frank, there's a lot more to Bassage's entries than a simple misreading of 'bugler'! Look deeper!
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:00 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Here is the famous Bassage notebook recovered from the battlefield.
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After being recovered Bassage used it to record various issues so it saw a very active life. Privileged to have held it, very carefully, and read it.

Frank the original photos are on photobucket, are you able to email the photos again, so I can repost.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:04 am

On their way Pete
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:04 am

Wow, this is intriguing.....the Da Vinci Code of the 24th.......

I've got to get my hands on the diary and see if I can break it....
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:58 am

Sime Ive just e mailed it to Pete, should be on the forum over the weekend.
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:26 pm

Frank

Technically you are infringing copyright law.  Your images were for your personal use and not for general public consumption.  There is nothing wrong in displaying just an extract to explain your thoughts/research etc.  The museum in Brecon does need to survive and this can only happen if visitors and researchers actually make the trip.


Last edited by Kenny on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:26 pm

If I am I would apologize, however when I was at Brecon I made no secret of my affiliation to the forum and my intention to use what I had photographed. Permission to photograph was asked for and given for all the documents I studied, some 123 pages in all.
Again I have no wish to damage the Museum in any way.
I might add that Ive been in possession of a transcript of the diary for around twenty years and have never used its contents. Just as much as I have copies of other unseen documents that will one day be donated to the museum.

Regards
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:44 pm

Frank/Martin
I did wonder about this when the post appeared saying that the Bassage notebook might appear en masse here.
I also have a photocopy of the notebook and received it yonks ago under the same conditions.  Whilst it is fine to reproduce bits of it to illustrate a point in a work, it does technically break the agreement if the whole thing is published in one go (unless one has permission to do so).  And, technically, there would be an infringement of UK law.
The moral side of it can be argued from now till doomsday but the legal side of it cannot.
I'm not taking sides here but I am giving you the benefit of my having published a number of things over the years and having had to take advice from university legal departments and publishers as to what is and isn't permissible.  As I have said before on the forum, whole documents should not be posted for general consumption and I would not want to see you, Frank, or the Forum land itself in hot water.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:57 pm

I have every sympathy with the need for the museum to derive an income from its holdings. But I fear the reality is that, for the vast majority of those with an interest, it is simply impractical to get to Brecon. I would venture a guess that the museum has never derived any income from its guardianship of Bassage's diary and if it maintained the kind of restrictions implied, it never will. In the absence of any plans to digitise the collection and make it available to subscribers at cost (as the NA do with their soldiers records and censuses) such documents will remain entirely theoretical as sources of income. At the same time, it will deprive those who have a genuine interest in the subject (and who tend to be extremely supportive of the museum) of vital public sources. In the absence of a 21st century solution, it does not seem to me unreasonable to make such a document available to the very restricted membership of this forum. It would be very short sighted for the museum to do otherwise. The legal position is one thing, knowing who your friends are is another.

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:21 pm

It is indeed an inextricable situation.
The legal situation is incontrournable but on the other hand, it is impossible for many of us to obtain documents that contains as many pages from the Brecon museum.
I encounter the same problem with South Africa; It is extremely difficult to obtain documents, without forgetting that the French banks refuse to send money to this country!
Finally, these institutions in S.A. do not have often a payment platform...
Again, an inextricable situation.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:58 pm

I have bought from RSA many items over the year's. and payment used
to be a real problem.. i have even converted stirling into rand's and sent
that through the mail, i have never had a serious problem. then some
year's ago i signed up to paypal.. what an amazing service and it's free
to set up, instantaneous and secure.. the way forward for electronic
banking worldwide. xhosa
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:01 pm

Up to Pete, Post or Not. I don't believe I have done anything wrong or anything that would be injurious to the museum.
The contentious issues raised by Julian need to be explored not hidden under the carpet as the PS report has been for many many years. The pages Pete has been sent are the areas I believe Julian has refered to, the C company listings. Not the whole Diary, not the iSandlwana areas, not the lists of bakery clients etc.
"Neque delicto neque consilium a aliquando conscientiae se mutare"

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:54 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:58 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Up to Pete, Post or Not. I don't believe I have done anything wrong or anything that would be injurious to the museum.
The contentious issues raised by Julian need to be explored not hidden under the carpet as the PS report has been for many many years. The pages Pete has been sent are the areas I believe Julian has refered to, the C company listings. Not the whole Diary, not the iSandlwana areas, not the lists of bakery clients etc.
"Neque delicto neque consilium a aliquando conscientiae se mutare"


Frank you have done nothing wrong, you never posted them on the forum I did. We have a Fair use notice in place.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:31 pm

Thank Frank and Admin i remember first reading the Bassage quote about 5 years ago its great to see the real Diary and quote from it. Very Happy

Sam
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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Does anyone know / think if the 50 men Forbes records as being seen out on the right when they returned to bury the dead are the same as those recorded by Bassage ? If not it would suggest heavy casualties by those on the right as they retreated.

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Sam
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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:42 pm


The McAlister and Bassage Family Medals

Pair: Sergeant-Major J. Bassage, Melmoth Reserves, late 2/24th Foot

South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (2452 Corpl. J. Bassage. 2.24th Foot.); Natal 1906, 1 clasp, 1906 (Sgt. Maj: J. Bassage, Melmoth Reserves) the first lightly polished, very fine, otherwise nearly extremely fine (3) £800-1000

Footnote
John Thomas Bassage was born in Maidstone, Kent, on 25 July 1855. He served with the 2/24th Foot in South Africa 1877-79 and was discharged in Natal as a Corporal. He married Fanny Hendrietta Starkey in Pietermaritzburg on 10 March 1881, and had two sons, John James and Walter Frederick (See Lots 250 and 251). In 1903 the family moved to Melmoth, where a daughter, Isabella Edith, was born but she died in infancy. During the Natal Rebellion of 1906, Bassage was Sergeant-Major in the Melmoth Reserves, then aged 51. He moved back to Pietermaritzburg in 1911 and died in Durban at the age of 78. Sold with a photocopied photograph of the recipient in uniform wearing his Zulu War medal, with his wife and two young sons.

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Bill8183



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PostSubject: Re: Bassage Diary   Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:13 pm

Thanks again for posting, I had a copy of these from the museum a couple of years ago. At least its confirmed my suspicion that I was missing a few pages! (Connell to Jordan)

With the extra 34 names this appears to be a very large company, 8 Snco, 5 Jnco 2 Dmr & 112 Ptes. Well above S.A. Regulations or are they trying to reach full War Establishment strength?

Being a statistics freak, I've compared the list with Holmes Noble 24th, and there seems to be a significant number where Bassage's Regt numbers do not match. Oddly virtually all are where the soldier has the S.A. medal without clasp with one or two having 1879 clasp only. Anyone have any ideas why this is so?

Obviously a couple have a numeral out or an initial, but the above suggests something to do with the new replacements?
Any thoughts from those more in the know?

Bill
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90th

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PostSubject: Bassage Diary    Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:24 am

The Bassage Campaign Medal Pair sold for 2,400 GBP's .
90th
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