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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:37 pm

The main elements of 1/24th were at Isandlwana.  Those were involved in the battle.  If you wish to travel from Helpmakaar to Isandlwana, you have to cross the river at the drift at Rorke's Drift where B Company 2/24th was based.  Two companies of 1/24 - D and G - remained at Helpmakaar with odds and sods - plus stores etc.  D & G were not involved in the battle at Isandlwana.  Obviously the escort reached Rorke's Drift but events at Isandlwana prevented them from going forward - then they were involved in the action at Rorke's Drift.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:21 pm

But there seems to be some doubt regarding the date the Journey took place. Was it before the 22nd ? Or on the 22nd. Were the prisoners and escort on foot or travelling in a wagon.
What happened to the Prisoners, did they take part in the defence.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:59 pm

[color:435b=#00FFFFPostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sat May 31, 2014 9:41 pm
Makes sense , if they were held up at RD what happened to the Prisioners.].

Dave, what's your game..it's simply going full circle..
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:14 pm

Sorry Dave, i did not mean you!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:44 pm

Dave

In answer to your post of 5.30 pm:

No.  Wrong.  Read carefully.

The escort did not start at Helpmekaar.   It started from the Central Column.
It took prisoners back into Natal to Helpmekaar.
Having delivered its prisoners, the escort then headed back to the Column intending to rejoin it at Isandhlwana but were obliged to stop off at Rorke's Drift.

As regards your remaining questions, which are limited by the extent of your personal knowledge, the answers lie in my forthcoming essay which will be fully-annotated giving all primary sources and containing newly-found, previously-unseen, and previously-unpublished material showing the progress of the prisoner escort from its inception to the 23rd January.

Of course you're not "aware of" the answers.  That's why they're newly-found, previously-unseen, and previously-unpublished!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:58 pm

So Kris's book is in correct or out of date regarding the prisoners ?

Looking at Jenkins record, he doesn't seem to be a chap that could be trusted as an escort of prisoners. What do you think!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:43 pm

Dave - I suggest that you defer your comments until you have actually read Julian's account. Then you can contribute meaningfully to the debate. I feel your current postings are unproductive because of your lack of knowledge.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:36 am

Kenny I always want details about something before I buy. No one is forcing JW to reply to any of my questions about his product, Of course when people don't, that gives me reason to be concerned about parting with £15 quid. Steve has brought the book, but states it's unclear who was actually being escorted. Well if we don't know that from the book how much other speculation has been used to for fill the pages. Still that's only my personal approach before buying.
A good example is Kris's book, I buy, now find out the Prisons or Sick under escort didn't remain at RD in Kris's book it states they did?  See so it's best to make sure you know what you buying. I purchased Kris's books based on the recommendation of other various members, even those who claimed to have the book but didn't. So thanks for your suggestion but no thanks. At the end of the day if my questions don't get answered I don't buy = what's the seller trying to hide?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:54 am



Admin.
Deleted. Dave unnecessary comment.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:00 am

Dave

I'm sorry but your post is illogical.

Steve has not bought the book; no-one has; it's not on sale yet.

Historians do not speculate.  They find evidence and make deductions from it.  If something still remains unclear after that then they say so.  They do not speculate.

Kris Wheatley is a good friend and we have helped each other considerably.  You will note that I write the foreword to her books.  She is meticulous in her research.  But history doesn't stand still.  New information comes to light.  And I have been able to improve on the whole story of the prisoner escort.  That's the way of history - otherwise we'd all still be quoting Sir Reginald Coupland.

It's illogical to expect an author to reveal to you never-before-seen information to you on a website forum prior to publication.  Do you think Kris, Ian Knight or Andrew Roberts would do it?  In fact, I have revealed something of the escort on this forum already - enough to excite your interest and comment - and prior to the book's availability I shall post short summaries of all the essays it contains so that people can read what will be included.

That said, I have given you an answer to every question you've posed (in so far as I have been able) so your comment is a little unfair.  Certainly, no-one is trying to "hide" anything - that's why I researched and am publishing the information in the essays -  to bring it into the open.

Frankly it doesn't bother me whether you personally buy the book or not.  It does worry me that you seem to think history is set in concrete and it has to stay that way.  A good historian needs an open receptive mind.  (Dave - note that this is not a criticism; it's an observation.)


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:57 am

Dave it matters not anyway. Jenkins name is only on the museum Roll. The original can't be altered.
Certain members agree with Julian only out of respect to his work right or wrong.

But hats of to Julian for having a go!

I do agree however that research is an on going thing. And new research corrects or adds to past research.

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Last section deleted, no need for that Impi. Researchers work in their own right.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:23 pm

Impi,

What original roll? There is no 'official' roll. There is Chard's list who did not really know the soldiers of the 24th and relayed on what is was told. There is Bourne's list who compiled it many years later - had two attempts - and did not know any of the soldiers outside of those in B Company 2/24th.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:44 pm

There is an easy test. Leaving JW to one side, quote me any AZW author, or any other authority, that says the original rolls (Chard or Bourne) are right. Then tell me which existing roll is the most accurate and why?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:54 pm

Kenny wrote:
Impi,  

What original roll?  There is no 'official' roll.  There is Chard's list who did not really know the soldiers of the 24th and relayed on what is was told.  There is Bourne's list who compiled it many years later - had two attempts - and did not know any of the soldiers outside of those in B Company 2/24th.    

I suppose we could say the Chard and Bourne's roll.

I would like to more about this hand written ledger mentioned my Martin Everett on the other site. Who completed this ledger and when. And what was the information based on.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:59 pm

rusteze wrote:
There is an easy test. Leaving JW to one side, quote me any AZW author, or any other authority, that says the original rolls (Chard or Bourne) are right. Then tell me which existing roll is the most accurate and why?

Steve

Holmes used both rolls for his book. If you look at the post containing the museum roll you will see that both Holmes and JW used them, Julian uses some other roll, so can you tell me which are accurate. I suppose the Historians goes with the one that suits them, at the time of writing.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:04 pm

I want to know what you think, and which author says your "original" rolls, which you seem to regard as official, are right?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:05 pm

I have said in my last post.
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:09 pm

Dave
There lies your sole problem , you aren't willing to spend 15 quid on a book that the Author has told you will shed light on the questions you are asking !. Buy the book and see , if it doesnt answer your questions , then you can have a dig at JW , but not before , I've never known any author , to give anyone the heads up about their books , people need to buy them and then decide one way or another. From your previous comments I think you would find it very beneficial to buy at least some books , so you can get an idea on the geography etc , if you don't know the areas involved , or where the crucial places sit in the scheme of things , you are doing yourself a dis-service and no favours ! Shocked . This is meant to be constructive criticism , please take it that way . agree
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:11 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:27 pm

When you say Holmes and JW used the Chard and Bourne rolls, what that means is they added or subtracted names, neither of them said the original rolls were right. That's why they wrote the books. So come on, name any author who says they are right.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:45 pm

Steve you restarted this discussion your just being stupid now! Impi has post the roll which was made by Chard not long after the event. Bourne's was many years later.
So we would conclude the Chard roll as being the original and official roll.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:50 pm

90th wrote:
Dave
There lies your sole problem , you aren't willing to spend 15 quid on a book that the Author has told you will shed light on the questions you are asking !. Buy the book and see , if it doesnt answer your questions , then you can have a dig at JW , but not before , I've never known any author ,  to give anyone the heads up about their books , people need to buy them and then decide one way or another.  From your previous comments I think you would find it very beneficial to buy at least some books , so you can get an idea on the geography etc , if you don't know the areas involved  , or where the crucial places sit in the scheme of things , you are doing yourself a dis-service and no favours ! Shocked . This is meant to be constructive criticism , please take it that way . agree
90th

90th see my post 06:36am
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:55 pm

Dave

Read the post. I asked who regarded the original rolls as being right - I'm still waiting for an answer. No need for name calling.

Steve
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:55 pm

Dave
Do you mean 8.36 am ?????
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:00 pm

Dave
If it is the 8.36 am post you are talking about , re read your last line  , What's the Author Hiding ? , Dave I'm afraid it wouldn't make any difference to you , sorry , but you need to broaden your knowledge , the only way is to spend a few quid here and there , decent books can be bought nowadays for a minimal amount , if you are prepared to go after them . On my computer you don't have a post at 6.30 am ! . Shocked
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:05 pm

"I purchased Kris's books based on the recommendation of other various members."
This is what I was referring to!

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:08 pm

90th wrote:
Dave
If it is the 8.36 am post you are talking about , re read your last line  , What's the Author Hiding ? , Dave I'm afraid it wouldn't make any difference to you , sorry , but you need to broaden your knowledge , the only way is to spend a few quid here and there , decent books can be bought nowadays for a minimal amount , if you are prepared to go after them . On my computer you don't have a post at 6.30 am ! .  Shocked
90th You need to study mo

No I don't have one at 06.30 it's 06:36
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:12 pm

What other books do you have besides those of Kris Wheatley ? , how do you expect to Learn if you don't buy some of the well known books and read them , you are seriously deluding yourself , you didn't know where Helpmekaar is and that it's in Natal ! Shocked , you could buy any book on the war and learn that ! . I'm only suggesting this for your own benefit , as you are showing that you have a limited knowledge on the areas involved . You don't have to spent a fortune to be educated on the war and its areas .
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:13 pm

What books would you suggest I had!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:21 pm

Dave/impi
I must correct two of your statements re the 'Chard Roll' and the Bourne Roll.  
Neither was made at the time.  The former dates from 1929; the latter from 1910 (and the amended Roll afterwards).
As I wrote earlier, what I found and used in the Jenkins essay in SITZW volume II were three additional rolls - Smith's Roll, Waters Roll, and the Fine Arts Roll - all from 1879.  In addition I used the ledger you referred to.  This is the Records of the 2/24th and 1/24th at Brecon which lists under 1879 the 11 men at RD from the 1/24th incl. David Jenkins.
If you had bought volume II you would be aware of all this new research and information available.  Pride goes before a fall?

Re obtaining books. It needn't cost you a penny Dave. Just get them through your local library (and help to ensure it stays open).


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:26 pm

Oh Dave , I didn't say 6.30 am , I said 8.36 am , you my friend initially said 6.36 am !! , you need to take a step back and take a deep breath ! Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker . There are many books , but pointless to tell you if you aren't willing to buy any !
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:30 pm

90th wrote:
Dave
If it is the 8.36 am post you are talking about , re read your last line  , What's the Author Hiding ? , Dave I'm afraid it wouldn't make any difference to you , sorry , but you need to broaden your knowledge , the only way is to spend a few quid here and there , decent books can be bought nowadays for a minimal amount , if you are prepared to go after them . On my computer you don't have a post at 6.30 am ! .  Shocked
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:32 pm




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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Today at 6:36 am

Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Kenny I always want details about something before I buy. No one is forcing JW to reply to any of my questions about his product, Of course when people don't, that gives me reason to be concerned about parting with £15 quid. Steve has brought the book, but states it's unclear who was actually being escorted. Well if we don't know that from the book how much other speculation has been used to for fill the pages. Still that's only my personal approach before buying.
A good example is Kris's book, I buy, now find out the Prisons or Sick under escort didn't remain at RD in Kris's book it states they did? See so it's best to make sure you know what you buying. I purchased Kris's books based on the recommendation of other various members, even those who claimed to have the book but didn't. So thanks for your suggestion but no thanks. At the end of the day if my questions don't get answered I don't buy = what's the seller trying to hide?
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:34 pm

Dave
Oops my bad , you are getting me confused now , what books do you have and I'll gladly mention a couple of others , which may help broaden your knowledge ? .
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:36 pm

Your confused by your own errors Very Happy

Your the expert what books should I have.
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:39 pm

Thanks Dave , compared to some no doubt about that ! . I cant help you if you cant or don't wish to help yourself , I may be an expert in your eyes , but I'm certainly not a mind reader !
90th Don\'t agree
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:43 pm

Just name the books you think I should have!
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:52 pm

Dave
To keep it simple and less expensive , it depends what you want to read about , if you are interested in Isand & RD may I suggest Zulu Rising by IK for starters (Ian Knight if you aren't sure ) , it has a nice map showing where Helpmekaar is in relation to RD & Isand etc , Keith Smith's ' Dead Was Everything ' has a more detailed map showing where Natal and Zululand are located in the scheme of things , covers a lot of the War , with much detail and footnotes , you cant beat them ( footnotes ) , they tell you from where the information was found or located , that should do you for a while , you don't wish to overdo it first off , no good having to many , you may not find the time to read them ! agree
90th Joker
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:57 pm

I have Ian Knights book. Don't have Keith's he to arrogant for my liking.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:58 pm

Dave
Please read my posts!
For the last time, no-one has bought SITZW vol. III.  Not Steve, not anybody.  IT IS NOT ON SALE YET!!!!!!!!!
I have given an answer to every question you've asked.  IT MAY NOT BE THE ANSWER YOU WANT BUT IT WAS GIVEN.

As for books, read David Jackson's Hill of the Sphinx.  It's not long.  It won't overtax you.


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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:59 pm

Dave
I forgot to mention you probably should be buying Julian's Vol 11 book , it will help clear up the Jenkins issue for you .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:01 pm

That's volume II not 11, Dave.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:04 pm

Just been in the loft and I have 95 books in my collection.
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:06 pm

Dave
Well you have a good start , look at the second page in the Acknowledgements , see the map , Helpmekaar is close to RD as the crow flies , Keith Smith , I thought he was a tad arrogant when he stumbled on here years ago , but don't let your perceived arrogance of the man hold back your quest for knowledge ! . I've dealt with him over the years , and believe me , I didn't find him arrogant in anyway , shape , or form , and he does get to the details , sometimes to many details to be honest !
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:12 pm

I also have England's sons & studies in the Zulu War 1879 : 1
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:13 pm

Dave
Sorry , I don't know how to do Roman Numerals hence the 11 , I'm certainly no expert on computers ! , 95 in the Loft you say Shocked , well they may as well be on the Moon ! scratch scratch , time to get one or two down and READ them ! . Is that a total book collection , surely they arent all zulu war scratch scratch . Agree with JW ' Hill Of The Sphinx ' is one you must try and get , but I don't think they are readily available anymore ? .
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:20 pm

All Zulu books and a few DVDs etc
I have one of Jacksons " Isandhlwana 1879 The sources Re-Examined"
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:23 pm

Dave
England's Sons as you may be aware is a book of lists and Tables , it isn't a book that gives you any information about the war . Vol 1 is different , if you have those two why don't you buy the 2nd Volume , which deals with Jenkins , JW said it would clear it up for you scratch scratch .
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:25 pm

Dave
You have some decent ones , jump into them !
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:34 pm

He said that about the Brave fugitive, still have some doubts. Anyway we will see.
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