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 Orders to laager at Isandhlwana

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:42 pm

The sale by DNW in December of Trumpeter Horne's medal (see Zulu War Medal Roll posting today) included an extract from Horne's account of Isandhlwana published in the Natal Advertiser in 1920. I reproduce it below and I have highlighted in red a section about him being given orders to laager. I have not seen this discussed before.

It says Horne received the order from Durnford when he told him what the NMR vedettes had seen of the approaching Impi, but that it was countermanded by Pulleine.

My first reaction is that Durnford's and Pulleine's names have been transposed in the reporting. But even so, is this new evidence?

I suspect not given the number of times this has been gone over, but what do others think?

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Steve
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:37 pm

My great Grandfather!
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:36 pm

Do you have a full account, or is that all we have!
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:17 pm

All I have at the moment is the text of the DNW medal sale. We need to get hold of the original Natal Advertiser to see if it is a correct transcript. And ideally something written by Mr Horne himself (which of course may or may not exist). Juanita?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:42 pm

I agree, the names of Pulleine and Durford have got mixed up. Pulleine's orders were to defend the camp, so would have ordered a Laager (Makes sense) Durnford was on the offensive, so would make sense not to Laager and waste time. Which it would been, as the Horne say's Natives were approaching in mass formation.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:53 pm

Further infoe on Horne from the DNW website.

"Horne escaped the massacre with a shot through the leg. Mr. Horne's career has had more excitement during a year than most people have in their lives. In 1870 he was given an appointment in the Government service at Ladysmith. He joined the Natal Frontier Guards in 1871. In 1873 they were ordered out on the Langalibalele rebellion. He was one of the first volunteers to join up when the trouble started. During the course of the campaign he went into Basutoland by way of the Double Mountains and the Bushman's Pass, under Captain Ellis, where they captured their man and brought him to the gaol at Matitzburg. In the latter end of 1875 Mr. Home was transferred to Newcastle, where he acted in many civic roles through the lack of other officials. Mr. Melmoth was magistrate of Newcastle at the time and when he received a request from a Major Dartnall to raise a mounted corps he asked Horne to do it. After official sanction had been obtained Horne raised a force of 37 men, whom he trained and drilled. In 1877 the Major inspected the corps and paid its organiser a compliment as to its efficiency. It was then brigaded with the Buffalo Border Guard between Newcastle and Dundee. A year later the corps was called up for the campaign the first leg of which ended in the disaster at Isandhlwana."
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:20 am

No, I have absolutely nothing at all, only that transcript sadly. My family never told me anything and I only found this in December last year, a couple of days after the auction took place. So if you guys can help me out I would so very much appreciate it. Discovering your website has given me some hope of finding out a little bit of family history that I never knew about.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:03 pm

I have attempted to tie down the point at which Horne says the order to laager the ox-wagons was given. Jackson, Knight and Snook all seem to make reference to a similar event.

The time it takes place seems to be about  8.30 on the morning of 22 January. Chelmsford has left the camp, and Durnford has not yet arrived ( so Horne's reference to Durnford having made the order must be a mistake, perhaps in transcription, if it happened it must have been Pulleine).

Horne's account
"The Colonel ordered the dispatching of the ox-wagons and the formation of a laager.."

Jackson's account
"Pulleine ordered the transport oxen, of which there were abot 1500, to be collected and tethered to their yokes - and thus to the fixed tow ropes of the wagons." He cites Brickhill, Conductor Foley, Times of Natal 3/2/79 Some of the wagons were in-spanned contrary to the orders transmitted through Brickhill.

Knight's account
Trooper Whitelaw rode in reporting 1000's of Zulus. Quoting Brickhill he says " Pulleine sounds "Fall In". Pulleine ordered Brickhill to tell the wagon drivers to collect the cattle and tie the oxen to their yokes, but not to in-span them.

Snook's account
Quartermaster James Pullen sought out James Brickhill and sent him to tell the conductors and voorloopers to tether stray animals to the wagons in the saddle. Brickhill probably shouted the order to the nearest cluster of loafing voorloopers and allowed the message to be relayed from group to group. Like all relayed messages, it was subject to misinterpretation, and some of them would in-span their oxen as if for a move. They may have been anticipating an order to laager the wagons, but no such order would be given."


So, both Jackson and Snook say that some oxen were in-spanned, and Snook speculates that this may be because an order to laager was expected, but it never came. Horne says an order to laager was given, though by Durnford (but this attribution is clearly wrong) but not followed through.

Nobody that I've read, so far, refers to Horne's account. And neither have I found any corroboration for what he is reported to have said.

If it is true,  it is very significant indeed in terms of the defence of the camp. And because of that it needs further work.  Snook gets the closest to what Horne is saying, but he does not think there was such an order, but says it was a reasonable expectation. It has to be said that Snook is good at that kind of analysis.

Can anybody turn up the Natal Advertiser, or find anything on the two vedettes Berning and Dinckleman?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:21 pm

Berning is on the survivors list. Can't find anything on Dinckleman. Possibly KIA.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:28 pm

Newcastle Mounted Rifles.

Captain Bradstreet
Quartermaster Hitchcock
Sergeant Swan Trooper Barnes Trooper Greenbank Trooper McAlister
Trooper Dinkelman  ? Likely
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90th

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PostSubject: Orders to Laager at Isandlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:29 pm

According to the Forsyth Roll ... Newcastle Mounted Rifles , Trooper , DINKELMAN. ? ( no Christian name initial )  , KIA , Isandlwana . Medal with Clasp 1879 .
As mentioned by Littlehand Berning is indeed a survivor , he was also a member of the Newcastle Mtd Rfles , and also was awarded the Medal with Clasp 1879 , which was returned to Woolwich Mint , either he couldnt be contacted , or had passed away , or had no interest , whatever the reason he never collected his medal . No . It would be worth a pretty penny or two nowadays ! Shocked Shocked
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:05 pm

About the laggering of the camp:
During the return of Chelmsford at Isandhwana:
"At 600 yards the column stopped. The guns were unlimbered and brought to bear on the nek where it seemed - or had seemed while it was still light, a barricade of wagons had been built. Some twenty rounds were fired..."
Source: "Zulu Victory" by Lock and Quantrill p.227

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:53 pm

Published in a Newcastle newspaper (24)
 “ Later in the day (Thursday) Moodie, Walsh, and three others of our own volunteers returned. Moodie and Walsh and two of the other three were in the fight.”
In order to achieve this, they must have been travelling throughout he night and could not have stayed with the defenders. As troopers Berning, Brown and Parsons were later accused of desertion from Helpmekaar on the 23rd January, then they must have remained to defend the garrison on the night of the 22nd. This then leaves troopers Burne and Horne as the two unnamed volunteers who were in the fight.

90th points out Berning never collected his medal. Being accused of desertion maybe the reason why?


Source:http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t5217-the-defence-of-helpmekaar-by-graham-alexander
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PostSubject: Orders to Laager at Isandlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:28 am

Dave throughout the Roll there are several notations which state '' Medal either withheld , or withdrawn due to desertion .
There were 10 medals from Memory from the NMR that were returned to Woolwich Mint , this from a total of 38 for the Newcastle Mtd Rfls
there is no mention of Desertion in the NMR Roll.
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:33 pm

Issues that have arisen through the mention of Trumpeter JJ Horne.
The Newcastle Mounted Rifles were raised in 1876 and according to the ‘Graphic of 17th May 1879’ Charles Robert Bradstreet was Chiefly Responsible in his role as Assistant Magistrate.
The original commander in Chief was Captain Osborn who handed over control to Bradstreet in 1877.
The resident magistrate in 1878 was WH Beaumont, later Sir William Beaumont, and it was he who galvanised action with Captain Bradstreet on increasing the size of the force and completing the construction of Fort Pine.
On completion Fort Pine was commanded by John Sutcliff Robson, later Captain Robson. It was Captain Robson that laid charges of desertion against Berning Brown and Parsons. (Charges issued 25th January)  I will return to this later,
I cannot find any references, with the exception of the DNW article, that puts John Joseph Horne in Newcastle at the time. There are references to early members and staunch members of the community that signed up for the NMR, a Mr Swan local wagon maker, and a German Missionary, Johan Dinkelman are mentioned, as are Mr Walsh and a Mr Boast (a name to ring a bell). I would have imagined that if Mr Horne was sufficiently well know for him to be asked to form the regiment his name would have been recorded. He was obviously in Newcastle at some point but I would question him being there at the time of formation.
I have come across a list of names of piquet’s that were out at that early part of the morning but haven’t as yet confirmed them all
Eary
Gutteridge
Wehr
Swan Sgnt
Dinkelman
Campbell
Lally
Berning

I would unfortunately have to ask a number of questions of the JJ Horne story

Why is there no mention of him being involved in the formation of the NMR, apart from the news paper article?
Why is the date in the report of the formation incorrect?
Why is John Joseph a mere Trumpeter with the experience that he has of soldiering?
Why is a man, a wagon maker who joined much later, promoted to Sgnt ahead of him (Swan)?
There were at Isandlwana the Newcastle Mounted Rifles Commanding Officer, its Quartermaster and a Sergeant. Given that military hierarchy why would two sentries report to a trumpeter, a rank possibly below that of trooper, instead of a senior officer?
Again there is a line of command that one would normally follow, from Trooper to Sergeant to Officer, and it’s that line that a report of such significance would have been followed. For a Trumpeter to bypass that line and go outside his own structures to report to the most senior officer in the camp is tantamount to breaking every law in the military.
There was a structured transport division in the column, headed by Captain Essex and Lt Smith Dorrien, would not a senior officer have turned to them to instruct any movement of wagons? We do know that at time Brickhill (A man known to Durnford) was busy moving the transport bullocks around, would not he have been an ideal man to have asked to construct a lager. I would suggest it’s more likely that those lines would have been followed rather than asking a Trumpeter to do so.


As a small aside to the story of Johan Dinkelman, his family later in life became quite well know in Natal, a current member is a well known commentator.
But this puts a more human side to the family.

Any comment about the intersection of Gladstone and Beaconsfield streets (and Boundary Road) would be incomplete without mention of the traffic island in that intersection – the so called “Jasco’s Island”. The island was erected in the 60’s to relieve traffic confusion in the intersection, and the finishing touch in the construction of the island was the installation of a street light in the middle of the island. It fell to Jonathan “Jasco” Dinkelman – a town electrician – to erect the light, which he successfully accomplished. However on his way back from the Royal Hotel bar on his motorcycle, on the evening of the day he had erected the light, and having no doubt imbibed one too many of his beloved rum and cokes, Jasco rode right over the island, taking out the light he had so painstakingly erected earlier in the day! From then on, our generation knew the island as “Jasco’s Island!”

Johann Dinkelmann, (Trooper)
Birthdate: 1848
Birthplace: Niedersögeln, Bramsche, Germany
Death: Died January 22, 1879 in Natal
Cause of death: Fallen in Battle - Newcastle Mounted Rifles - Anglo Zulu War
Place of Burial: New Hanover, Natal
Immediate Family: Son of Franz Heinrich Dinkelmann and Maria Margarethe Engel Kröger
Brother of Hermann Heinrich Dinkelmann; Johann Heinrich Rudolph Dinkelmann; Johann Georg Dinkelmann and Adolf Hermann Dinkelmann
Half brother of Hermann Heinrich Dinkelmann; Johann Diederich Dinkelmann and Katherine Margarethe Dinkelmann


In connection with the desertion charges: I can’t locate any follow through on those and so I would suggest that the absence of the men was as a result of the orders given by Captain Essex that horses should be shot, given at Helpmakaar night of the 22nd.
As Dugale Mcphail put it: “If the horses go, we go.” And they did “We could hear many breaking away, so we came along.”

Mcphail stayed away from the commotion for a week, but wasn’t charge with desertion because he had reported to William Beaumont who had instructed him to stay in Newcastle to assist. He did that for around seven days then went back to Fort Pine. So possibly so did the rest of the men who weren’t prepared to shoot their horses.

Unfortunately as a result of Newspaper Articles getting things wrong companies like DNW unknowingly perpetrate and expand myths and the realms of dare devils and heroes tend to expand with each telling, that to my mind does a great disservice to heroes such as JJ Horne who should be remembered for the hero he was.
Juanita you should be proud of your Great Grandfather, he really was a brave man.

Thanks to Louise at Fort Amiel Newcastle.
Norman at the Talana Museum.
Essex statements
Smith Dorrien
Mcphail
Stafford
John Youngs most excellent ‘Like Stones They fell’
David Jacksons ‘Sources Revisited’
The Dinkelman family web site.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:56 pm

Bonjour Springbok,

Wonderful!
Very happy to read you again on this forum.

Amitiés.

Frédéric
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:44 pm

Welcome back Frank - you were sorely missed!

Just goes to show that local input to these questions is invaluable. I think you make some very fair points about how likely the story is to be true in detail - but I remain intrigued about our Mr Horne (sorry, Juanita's Mr Horne!). He was indeed a brave man, as you say. It's just nice to have something fresh to consider and not get bogged down in the same old stuff.

Frederic's point about the line of wagons being seen on the saddle needs further thought. Off to do some more study I think.

Steve


Last edited by rusteze on Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:58 pm

Well, I am very confused! I'm not sure whether you are disputing what my great grandfather is quoted as saying or not, and yet you are also saying I should be very proud of him! I do know he was at Isandhlwana representing the Newcastle Mounted Rifles as his name is listed in an article written by Charles Griffen on the Anglo Zulu War 1879. He also received a medal to commerate this. Given that he was probably in his late seventies when he was quoted as saying what was written in the article there may have been a few misquotes but he wouldn't have received a medal unless he was actually there in the first place. Forgive me for being very ignorant on these matters but just because you can't find anything to say he wasn't in Newcastle at the time doesn't necessarily suggest he wasn't. Juanita

are also as in Colonel Glyn's no.3 Column
Captain E Essex, 75th Regiment (staff)
Captain A C Gardner, 14th Hussars (staff)
Lieutenant L H Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment (transport)
Mr J A Brickhill (civilian interpreter)
Lieutenant H T Curling RA
9 men of N Battery, 5th Brigade RA
Bandsman Bickley, 1/24th
Bandsman Wilson, 1/24th
11 men of no.1 Sqn Mounted Infantry - Sergeant P Naughton (2/3rd), Corporal J McCan (1/24th), Privates E Evans (2/3rd), J Edwards (2/3rd), J Gascoigne (2/3rd), D Whelan (1/13th), S Wassall (80th), T Westwood (80th), H Davis (1/24th), W Parry (1/24th), J Power (1/24th)
Natal Mounted Police, 9 men - Trumpeter Stevens, Troopers Sparks, Hayes, Collier, Kincaid, Eaton, Shannon, Doig, Dorhill
Natal Carbineers, 7 men - Troopers Muirhead, Fletcher, Edwards, Barker, Grainger, Tarboton, Sidthorpe
Newcastle Mounted Rifles, 7 men - Trumpeter Horne, TroopersBurne, Moodie, Walsh, Brown, Berning, Parsons
Buffalo Border Guard, QM McPhail and 4 men - Troopers Lennox, Adams, Adams, Stretch
Lieutenant J Adendorff NNC
Lieutenant W R C Higginson NNC
Lieutenant T Vaines NNC
Sergeant-Major Williams NNC and 2 NCOs
Lieutenant G F Andrews, Natal Native Pioneers
Conductor Foley
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:37 pm

Juanita

There is no doubt whatsoever that your Great Grandfather was at Isandhlwana with the Newcastle Mounted Rifles and was fully deserving of his medal. That is why Frank says that he was undoubtedly a brave man. So you need not have any qualms.

The point of contention is a detailed one that is really only of interest to Zulu War anoraks like us. It is to do with whether or not an order was given to laager the camp. Which is all about defending it from the subsequent Zulu attack. Surprising as it may seem, the discussion about defending the camp has been going on for at least 10 years on this site and even longer on others. Hard to believe isn't it!

So any reference to such an order being given inevitably sparks a huge amount of interest among a very small group of people - sad really.

Once again, nothing is being said against John Joseph Horne or the part he played. He was there, and it is great that his story has come up.

Regards

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:56 pm

(Sir) Captain Theophyllis Shepstone of the Natal Carbineers was obviously a friend of my Great Grandfather, John Joseph Horne ....he gave my Great Grandmother a locket on her wedding day with an inscription from him to commerate her big day. I'm not sure how they became friends or what the connection was, but it is interesting nevertheless. I only found this out very recently.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:24 pm

Hi Juanita
Im sorry I had no intentions in casting any sort of doubt on your great grandfathers presence at Isandlwana. There is as you say a great weight of evidence to prove he was, that is not in doubt.
My contentions were to address a number of issues that arose as a result of the DNW article. A key one being, as Steve has pointed out, the lagering at the camp and the decisions/non decisions about that.
There are however a number of questions that Ive posed that throw doubt on a large part of the article.
When I mentioned the lack of evidence to put JJ Horne in Newcastle I refered to the period 1876-177. He obviously was there in 78-79.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:35 pm

It would be interesting to see a photo of the locket, if that is possible and the inscription. Shepstone was knighted in 1876. Do you have a date of marriage, it could really assist in tracing some more history and filling in the gaps of your GGF. In fact any further family information would help. Relatives etc?
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:02 pm

Sorry I should have added that JJ Horne was an assistant constable in 1878. He applied for his release from that post, I would think to join the NMR.
This a file heading from the national Archives that I will track down.
RESIDENT MAGISTRATE, NEWCASTLE: REQUESTS THAT HIS EUROPEAN CONSTABLE
JOHN HORNE MAY BE RELEASED FROM HIS VOLUNTEER DUTIES. 1878

And later he applied for a position in Ladysmith
JJ HORNE, LADYSMITH APPLIES FOR POST OF GAOLER AT LADYSMITH. 1887




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PostSubject: Orders to Laager at Isandlwana    Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:39 pm

Hi Springy Salute
I knew you'd be back ! LOL .
In reply to one of your questions , I can tell you that in all the Medal Rolls a Bugler , or Trumpeter, is always listed before Private or trooper . I do remember reading they were on a higher rate of pay than the Ordinary Pte or Trp , therefore certainly above them in Rank . According to Terry Sole's '' For God , Queen & Colony '' Trumpeter Horne was the only Trumpeter for the unit and he's also described as a Messenger Of Newcastle Magistrate's Court . As for your question regarding the chain of Command , there was 1 Captain and that being Bradstreet , who we know was killed , then there are 2 Lt's named Dixon and Jones , these according to Julian's Englands' Sons were not in camp at Isandlwana , also a Sgt Maj Napier who doesn't appear to have been at Isandlwana either , then you Qtr Mstr Hitchcocok KIA Isandlwana , then 3 Sgt's named Bierbbaum , Swan and Walsh , Swan is Killed at Isand , Walsh survived Isand , no mention of Bierbaume being at Isandlwana , then in the list comes Trumpeter J.J. Horne , as you can see I think it was a case of reporting to whoever was convenient at the time , I doubt to much protocol was broken . So on the face of it , Horne is 5th on the chain of command . I hope this has made some sense ! Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:50 pm

Morning 90th
I wondered about the assistant constable position, that's in the national archives, so yes a messenger of the court would fit in quite well.
Cheers
PS Not back just responding to a friends request. Did you get that link I sent you?
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:16 am

I'm not sure how you attach a photograph here, can anyone help?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:17 am

Juanita. e mail it to me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and I will post it for you.
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:25 am

Done
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:36 am

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Photo courtesy of juanita
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:40 am

Annie Zietsman was my Great Grandmother, but we think her name was actually Susara Johanna Zietsman which she shortened to Annie.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:41 am

Thanks for that Juanita, Im busy tracing through the national Archives data base for other info. Every little date helps.
I can if you would like post a couple of photos of places JJ would have spent time in? Also I do know that forum member 90th has a group photo of the 50th anniversary dinner in Durban, not annotated unfortunately, but no doubt JJ would be on it.
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:43 am

Absolutely wonderful, please do

Juanita
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:43 am

Can you send to my email address?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:03 am

This is the old parade ground in the centre of Fort Pine, a place JJ would have spent time in both before the war and during, after Isandlwana.
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The old stables area at Fort Pine
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The old barracks at Fort Pine
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This the old armoury and barracks of the Newcastle Mounted Rifles

Romantic thoughts I know but highly possible that this is where JJ spent the night before his wedding.

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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:23 am

Why would he have spent the night before his wedding here?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:36 am

Just a touch of humour. Very Happy
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:00 am

No problem ...
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:17 am

Juanita
I have suspicions that the 'Sir' on the engraving has been added at a later date. 'If' that is correct then its highly possible that the gift came from Theophilus Shepstone jnr (Offey). Who was active in that area at that time.
Shepstone senior was at that time in the Transvaal, actually Pretoria from Jan 1877 to Jan 1879.
The fact that its sent to your GGM cant prove a connection between JJ and Sir T.
I cant read your GGm's maiden name, do you have any more details on her that I can check through NAAIRS.

More than happy to be proved wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:37 am

Is this your GGm Juanita?
Document 8 of 24
DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 93727
PART 1
DESCRIPTION HORNE, ANNIE ELIZABETH. BORN TAYLOR.
STARTING 19360000
ENDING 19360000
REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE JOSEPH HORNE.
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:42 am

No, she was a Zietsman
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:50 am

Why would the title Sir be added at a later date??? Jilly, my second cousin, is adamant that it was Sir Theophyllis Shepstone who gave the locket to our GGM, did the younger Theophyllis become a Sir as well? Anyway, again, why wouldn't he have known my GGF as it was John Joseph who married her, there must have been some connection surely? I'm not sure she would have accepted a present like that if they weren't known to one another. Captain Shepstone is listed in the list I originally uploaded by the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:42 am

The' Sir' on the engraving appears to have been sqeezed in between the separating line and Theophilus, all the other lettering has been well spaced by the engraver. The S in 'Sir' is engraved differently to the Times Roman style in Shepstone and is without the seraps at the ends. Hence my thought it was added at a later date by a different engraver. Put more simply, two separate handwritings.
In any family /relationship there are friends of the brides/family and friends of the grooms/family, there is ample potential there for one side not to be aquainted with the other. Its very possible that Theophilus did know JJ, but the locket cant be accepted as proof that they actually did.
You seem to be reading my posts incorrectly, Ive never intimated that Annie Elizabeth didn't know a Theophilus Shepstone. I deliberately say 'a' Shepstone because there is no proof that the inscription relates to Shepstone senior. The obverse is more to the point, the 'Sir' would be suspect in any identification and the fact that Senior was not in Natal for a year before the wedding and a year after is a potential pointer to his son actually being the giver. Shepstone Junior was on the other hand in the area and was acting with the volunteer forces.


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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:10 pm

I don't know who Annie Elizabeth is??? I also can't find anything to suggests that Theophyllis junior was knighted either, so I go back to my original question, why would 'someone' add a title to an inscription if they didn't hold that title?
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:20 pm

Sorry Juanita Im not going to answer that question, its self evident.
Im finished on this topic maybe someone else will assist you.
Good Luck.
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Juanita



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:06 pm

I tend to agree with you that the Sir on the inscription is in a different lettering style, and probably was added, but why? Never mind, time to move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:03 pm

Frank
Excellent piece of research on Dinkelmann - well done.
Juanita
I take it that you have no photograph of J J Horne in the family?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:36 pm

Juanita wrote:
Why would the title Sir be added at a later date??? Jilly, my second cousin, is adamant that it was Sir Theophyllis Shepstone who gave the locket to our GGM, did the younger Theophyllis become a Sir as well? Anyway, again, why wouldn't he have known my GGF as it was John Joseph who married her, there must have been some connection surely? I'm not sure she would have accepted a present like that if they weren't known to one another. Captain Shepstone is listed in the list I originally uploaded by the way.

"Sir Theophilus Shepstone was invested as a Knight Commander, Order of St. Michael and St. George (K.C.M.G.)"


Source:http://www.thepeerage.com/p33606.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:47 pm

"Annie Jeanes Giddy (Shepstone)
Birthdate: July 7, 1833
Birthplace: Grahamstown, Eastern Cape, South Africa
Death: Died 1917
Immediate Family:
Daughter of John William Shepstone, Rev. SV/PROG and Elizabeth Ann Shepstone, SM/PROG
Sister of Theophilus Shepstone, Sir; Maria Elizabeth Shepstone; William George Brooks Shepstone; John Wesley Shepstone and George Morley Shepstone
Half sister of Edward Shepstone; Dorothy Harriette Shepstone; Emily Shepstone; Frederick William Shepstone; Henry Smith Shepstone and 1 other

Just a thought!
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:01 am

Further to the earlier discusions.
These have arrived from the Talana Museum
Thanks to Pam McFadden and Norman.
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Cheers
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Thu May 28, 2015 10:41 pm

rusteze wrote:

Frederic's point about the line of wagons being seen on the saddle needs further thought. Off to do some more study I think.

Steve
Bonsoir,

By late morning Pulleine decided to withdraw to a defensive laager:A War Office memo noted that Pulleine had "called in the cattle and began to harness them so as to draw the wagons into a circle".

Memorandum on the Isandlwana disaster,11 February 1879, RAVIC (Royal Archives, Victoria Journal) 033/92

Source: E. Yorke: ""Zulu!" p.200

Cheers
Frédéric
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