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 Orders to laager at Isandhlwana

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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri May 29, 2015 11:38 am

Bonjour Frederic

I came across this interesting note in the papers at the National Archives last week. This is from Glyn to Belairs dated 2/3/1879 and says it encloses statements on the events at Isandhlwana by two wagon drivers "Hans Boer and Abraham". But I cannot, so far, find the statements in this file of papers. Neither can I find any reference to those names in the literature. So is this missing evidence or can someone offer more information?

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Copyright National Archives
Steve


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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri May 29, 2015 12:28 pm

rusteze wrote:
Bonjour Frederic

I came across this interesting note in the papers at the National Archives last week. This is from Glyn to Belairs dated 2/3/1879 and says it encloses statements on the events at Isandhlwana by two wagon drivers "Hans Boer and Abraham". But I cannot, so far, find the statements in this file of papers. Neither can I find any reference to those names in the literature. So is this missing evidence or can someone offer more information?

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Steve

Steve,
I suppose you have study "England's sons" by Mr Whybra (i don't have my copy at hand).
If these men and their statements are not listed in England's sons, you have at hand the "material" for a great essay!
Wonderful!
I hope indeed that you enjoy your travels at Kew by motorway.... Wink
Cheers
Frédéric
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri May 29, 2015 1:34 pm

Frederic

Salute, I did not look in the obvious place!  Abraham appears on page 57 of Julian's work, his statement is in the National Archives in file WO 33/34. Hans Boer is a new inclusion by Julian in the latest edition, his statement is in WO 32/7713. Both escaped via Fugitives Drift - I will take a look at the reports next week.

It shows how documents on the same subject can become separated in the archives, the file I reviewed last week, which contained Glyn's note, was WO 32/7726.

Regards
Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri May 29, 2015 2:16 pm

Steve,
I haven't read these testimonies (Abraham and Boer)..
I am suspicious about the reality of this hypothesis (I.E:order to build a laager given by Pulleine, Durnford or others Officers).
No mention given on this subject by surviving Officers as ESSEX, GARDNER or SMITH-DORRIEN...
I rather think that there were the Zulus who moved the wagons for the transportation of loot and their wounded.
But i have a (little) doubt: Who was the "source" for the war office memorandum ( "called in the cattle and began to harness them so as to draw the wagons into a circle")?
Rumors from members of the relief column?
Testimony given by Hans Boer?
If this testimony is a new inclusion in England's sons, it probably has never been published before in a a book, maybe in a forgotten newspaper ....
So i am anxious to read it.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri May 29, 2015 3:58 pm

Rusteze
Both Boer and Abraham's accounts are quite well-known. Don't expect anything revelatory in them!
ymob
I too am suspicious of the remark in Yorke's book - it all depends on the nature of the source.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri May 29, 2015 5:58 pm

Frédéric,

Queen Victoria's journal transcribed by her daughter Princess Beatrice appear on:
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I tried a quick look on the Royal Archives for any correspondence between Colonel the Hon. Frederick Stanley, the Secretary of State for War and Colonel Henry Ponsonby, Queen Victoria's Private Secretary, and nothing obvious is leaping out as yet.

John Y.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptySun May 31, 2015 11:56 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

Queen Victoria's journal transcribed by her daughter Princess Beatrice appear on:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I tried a quick look on the Royal Archives for any correspondence between Colonel the Hon. Frederick Stanley, the Secretary of State for War and Colonel Henry Ponsonby, Queen Victoria's Private Secretary, and nothing obvious is leaping out as yet.

John Y.

Bonsoir Mr Young,
Thank you for the link, but it seems that i don't have access to "the Queen Victoria's journal" from France (only GB, USA and Canada).
I have asked a "pass" and i am waiting the answer.
Cheers
Frédéric
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 12:03 am

Payback for La Revolution Francaise!

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 12:38 am

Impertinent
Obviously we did not cut enough heads.
If only Admiral Nelson had been French...








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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 12:44 am

Blaspheme!

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 12:48 am

i know, but the Duke of Wellington, i can't.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 12:56 am

Turn up the volume.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 8:17 pm

Very Nice melody and pictures my friend...
In France, we say: " la musique adoucit les moeurs"
Cheers
Frédéric
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 8:57 pm

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 01, 2015 9:14 pm

Good link John. Tres evocateur Frederic.

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2015 9:02 am

Bonjour,
About the "laagering" of the camp, there is this testimony of trooper S.B. JONES (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) who was with CHELMSFORD's column the 22 January:
"Towards daylight we were ordered to trek back to Rorke's Drift [I.E: the 23 January]...Colonel Pulleine had all the wagons inspanned and it could be seen that it was his intention to form a laager, but the zulus had attacked the camp before that could be done and had killed all the oxens in their yokes...we saw where some of the 24th Regiment about 100 of them, had got behind a ridge and built up a sort of stockade of ammunition boxes. From behind that flimsy defense they had kept the Natives off until all their ammunition was finishe, and there we found them with heaps of empty cartridge cases beside each body".

Source: "The Natal Mercury", Tuesday, Jan, 22nd 1929 quoted in "The journal of the AZWRS " (Mr Young) Vol. n°2 issue n°1 p.16-19 "We saw red").

Cheers

Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 05, 2015 12:51 pm

ymob wrote:
Bonjour,
About the "laagering" of the camp, there is this testimony of trooper S.B. JONES (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) who was with CHELMSFORD's column the 22 January:
"Towards daylight we were ordered to trek back to Rorke's Drift [I.E: the 23 January]...Colonel Pulleine had all the wagons inspanned and it could be seen that it was his intention to form a laager, but the zulus had attacked the camp before that could be done and had killed all the oxens in their yokes...we saw where some of the 24th Regiment about 100 of them, had got behind a ridge and built up a sort of stockade of ammunition boxes. From behind that flimsy defense they had kept the Natives off until all their ammunition was finishe, and there we found them with heaps of empty cartridge cases beside each body".

Source: "The Natal Mercury", Tuesday, Jan, 22nd 1929 quoted in "The journal of the AZWRS " (Mr Young) Vol. n°2 issue n°1 p.16-19 "We saw red").

Cheers

Frédéric


Just a clarification: Mr John Young was chairman of this journal.
It's not the journal with the same title by Adrian Greaves (and now Mr John Laband).
Cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 11, 2015 12:22 am

Bonjour
Maybe the origin of the "myth" of a laager at Isandhlwana:
One anonymous member wrote on the occasion of the expedition led by Black (2/24th)
"Waggons were standing in every direction, many having been moved a considerable distance from the original position"

South Wales Daily News, 15 April 1879 "The scene at Isandula"

Cheers

Frédéric
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 11, 2015 10:45 am

I love this music, its used quite a lot with clips from Sharpe. King George commands and we obey....I also enjoy listening to La Victoire est a nous and 'Le chant de l 'oignon' I have to be honest, I can't think of many nations that march into battle singing about onions. Surprised
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 11, 2015 12:01 pm

If you like some real good powerful tub thumping music, then try Elgar's Triumphal March on full volume, bloody fantastic. agree
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 11, 2015 12:20 pm

Regarding wagons being moved about at iSandlwana, I am sure I have read that the zulu's did move some of them about and also used some to transport the booty and wounded and also some of the dead, that would account for the wagons 'standing in every direction'. If my memory serves, I am sure that I read that some of the wagons had been dumped down some of the dongas.

More good music is 'Jupiter the bringer of jollity', from the Planets suite by Gustav Holst, probably better known as 'I vow to thee my country', maybe this should be The English National Anthem, very stirring stuff, marvellous music, as is 'Land of Hope and Glory', another one that could be Englands National Anthem, well, what's left of our once great country, that I fear is now going down the drain and will soon be consigned to the history books if we don't do anything about the situation, very sad, and the sooner we are out of the awful EU the better.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 11, 2015 4:44 pm

Spot on with the music Martin, but if you really want to hear something then put on some headphones, turn the volume up and listen to Ennio Morricone The Ecstasy of Gold. The vocalist will blow your socks off. Salute [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Orders to laager at Isandhlwana   Orders to laager at Isandhlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 14, 2015 12:17 am

ymob wrote:
Bonjour,
About the "laagering" of the camp, there is this testimony of trooper S.B. JONES (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) who was with CHELMSFORD's column the 22 January:
"Towards daylight we were ordered to trek back to Rorke's Drift [I.E: the 23 January]...Colonel Pulleine had all the wagons inspanned and it could be seen that it was his intention to form a laager, but the zulus had attacked the camp before that could be done and had killed all the oxens in their yokes...we saw where some of the 24th Regiment about 100 of them, had got behind a ridge and built up a sort of stockade of ammunition boxes. From behind that flimsy defense they had kept the Natives off until all their ammunition was finishe, and there we found them with heaps of empty cartridge cases beside each body".

Source: "The Natal Mercury", Tuesday, Jan, 22nd 1929 quoted in "The journal of the AZWRS " (Mr Young) Vol. n°2 issue n°1 p.16-19 "We saw red").

Cheers
 
Frédéric

Between 9-10 Brickhill ordered the waggoners to collect all the cattle.
The oxen were indeed in their yokes but they were not in spanned. This had been done prior to Durnfords arrival.
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