Orders to laager at Isandhlwana

Bonjour Frederic

I came across this interesting note in the papers at the National Archives last week. This is from Glyn to Belairs dated 2/3/1879 and says it encloses statements on the events at Isandhlwana by two wagon drivers "Hans Boer and Abraham". But I cannot, so far, find the statements in this file of papers. Neither can I find any reference to those names in the literature. So is this missing evidence or can someone offer more information?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Copyright National Archives
Steve

rusteze wrote:

Bonjour Frederic

I came across this interesting note in the papers at the National Archives last week. This is from Glyn to Belairs dated 2/3/1879 and says it encloses statements on the events at Isandhlwana by two wagon drivers "Hans Boer and Abraham". But I cannot, so far, find the statements in this file of papers. Neither can I find any reference to those names in the literature. So is this missing evidence or can someone offer more information?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve

Steve,
I suppose you have study "England's sons" by Mr Whybra (i don't have my copy at hand).
If these men and their statements are not listed in England's sons, you have at hand the "material" for a great essay!
Wonderful!
I hope indeed that you enjoy your travels at Kew by motorway....
Cheers
Frédéric

Frederic

Salute, I did not look in the obvious place!  Abraham appears on page 57 of Julian's work, his statement is in the National Archives in file WO 33/34. Hans Boer is a new inclusion by Julian in the latest edition, his statement is in WO 32/7713. Both escaped via Fugitives Drift - I will take a look at the reports next week.

It shows how documents on the same subject can become separated in the archives, the file I reviewed last week, which contained Glyn's note, was WO 32/7726.

Regards
Steve

Steve,
I haven't read these testimonies (Abraham and Boer)..
I am suspicious about the reality of this hypothesis (I.E:order to build a laager given by Pulleine, Durnford or others Officers).
No mention given on this subject by surviving Officers as ESSEX, GARDNER or SMITH-DORRIEN...
I rather think that there were the Zulus who moved the wagons for the transportation of loot and their wounded.
But i have a (little) doubt: Who was the "source" for the war office memorandum ( "called in the cattle and began to harness them so as to draw the wagons into a circle")?
Rumors from members of the relief column?
Testimony given by Hans Boer?
If this testimony is a new inclusion in England's sons, it probably has never been published before in a a book, maybe in a forgotten newspaper ....
So i am anxious to read it.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Rusteze
Both Boer and Abraham's accounts are quite well-known. Don't expect anything revelatory in them!
ymob
I too am suspicious of the remark in Yorke's book - it all depends on the nature of the source.

Frédéric,

Queen Victoria's journal transcribed by her daughter Princess Beatrice appear on:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I tried a quick look on the Royal Archives for any correspondence between Colonel the Hon. Frederick Stanley, the Secretary of State for War and Colonel Henry Ponsonby, Queen Victoria's Private Secretary, and nothing obvious is leaping out as yet.

John Y.

John Young wrote:

Frédéric,

Queen Victoria's journal transcribed by her daughter Princess Beatrice appear on:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I tried a quick look on the Royal Archives for any correspondence between Colonel the Hon. Frederick Stanley, the Secretary of State for War and Colonel Henry Ponsonby, Queen Victoria's Private Secretary, and nothing obvious is leaping out as yet.

John Y.

Bonsoir Mr Young,
Thank you for the link, but it seems that i don't have access to "the Queen Victoria's journal" from France (only GB, USA and Canada).
I have asked a "pass" and i am waiting the answer.
Cheers
Frédéric

Payback for La Revolution Francaise!

Steve

Impertinent
Obviously we did not cut enough heads.
If only Admiral Nelson had been French...

Blaspheme!

Steve

i know, but the Duke of Wellington, i can't.

Turn up the volume.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Steve

Very Nice melody and pictures my friend...
In France, we say: " la musique adoucit les moeurs"
Cheers
Frédéric

Good link John. Tres evocateur Frederic.

Steve

Bonjour,
About the "laagering" of the camp, there is this testimony of trooper S.B. JONES (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) who was with CHELMSFORD's column the 22 January:
"Towards daylight we were ordered to trek back to Rorke's Drift [I.E: the 23 January]...Colonel Pulleine had all the wagons inspanned and it could be seen that it was his intention to form a laager, but the zulus had attacked the camp before that could be done and had killed all the oxens in their yokes...we saw where some of the 24th Regiment about 100 of them, had got behind a ridge and built up a sort of stockade of ammunition boxes. From behind that flimsy defense they had kept the Natives off until all their ammunition was finishe, and there we found them with heaps of empty cartridge cases beside each body".

Source: "The Natal Mercury", Tuesday, Jan, 22nd 1929 quoted in "The journal of the AZWRS " (Mr Young) Vol. n°2 issue n°1 p.16-19 "We saw red").

Cheers

Frédéric

ymob wrote:

Bonjour,
About the "laagering" of the camp, there is this testimony of trooper S.B. JONES (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) who was with CHELMSFORD's column the 22 January:
"Towards daylight we were ordered to trek back to Rorke's Drift [I.E: the 23 January]...Colonel Pulleine had all the wagons inspanned and it could be seen that it was his intention to form a laager, but the zulus had attacked the camp before that could be done and had killed all the oxens in their yokes...we saw where some of the 24th Regiment about 100 of them, had got behind a ridge and built up a sort of stockade of ammunition boxes. From behind that flimsy defense they had kept the Natives off until all their ammunition was finishe, and there we found them with heaps of empty cartridge cases beside each body".

Source: "The Natal Mercury", Tuesday, Jan, 22nd 1929 quoted in "The journal of the AZWRS " (Mr Young) Vol. n°2 issue n°1 p.16-19 "We saw red").

Cheers

Frédéric

Just a clarification: Mr John Young was chairman of this journal.
It's not the journal with the same title by Adrian Greaves (and now Mr John Laband).
Cheers
Frédéric

Bonjour
Maybe the origin of the "myth" of a laager at Isandhlwana:
One anonymous member wrote on the occasion of the expedition led by Black (2/24th)
"Waggons were standing in every direction, many having been moved a considerable distance from the original position"

South Wales Daily News, 15 April 1879 "The scene at Isandula"

Cheers

Frédéric

I love this music, its used quite a lot with clips from Sharpe. King George commands and we obey....I also enjoy listening to La Victoire est a nous and 'Le chant de l 'oignon' I have to be honest, I can't think of many nations that march into battle singing about onions.

If you like some real good powerful tub thumping music, then try Elgar's Triumphal March on full volume, bloody fantastic.

Regarding wagons being moved about at iSandlwana, I am sure I have read that the zulu's did move some of them about and also used some to transport the booty and wounded and also some of the dead, that would account for the wagons 'standing in every direction'. If my memory serves, I am sure that I read that some of the wagons had been dumped down some of the dongas.

More good music is 'Jupiter the bringer of jollity', from the Planets suite by Gustav Holst, probably better known as 'I vow to thee my country', maybe this should be The English National Anthem, very stirring stuff, marvellous music, as is 'Land of Hope and Glory', another one that could be Englands National Anthem, well, what's left of our once great country, that I fear is now going down the drain and will soon be consigned to the history books if we don't do anything about the situation, very sad, and the sooner we are out of the awful EU the better.

Spot on with the music Martin, but if you really want to hear something then put on some headphones, turn the volume up and listen to Ennio Morricone The Ecstasy of Gold. The vocalist will blow your socks off. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

ymob wrote:

Bonjour,
About the "laagering" of the camp, there is this testimony of trooper S.B. JONES (Newcastle Mounted Rifles) who was with CHELMSFORD's column the 22 January:
"Towards daylight we were ordered to trek back to Rorke's Drift [I.E: the 23 January]...Colonel Pulleine had all the wagons inspanned and it could be seen that it was his intention to form a laager, but the zulus had attacked the camp before that could be done and had killed all the oxens in their yokes...we saw where some of the 24th Regiment about 100 of them, had got behind a ridge and built up a sort of stockade of ammunition boxes. From behind that flimsy defense they had kept the Natives off until all their ammunition was finishe, and there we found them with heaps of empty cartridge cases beside each body".

Source: "The Natal Mercury", Tuesday, Jan, 22nd 1929 quoted in "The journal of the AZWRS " (Mr Young) Vol. n°2 issue n°1 p.16-19 "We saw red").

Cheers
 
Frédéric

Between 9-10 Brickhill ordered the waggoners to collect all the cattle.
The oxen were indeed in their yokes but they were not in spanned. This had been done prior to Durnfords arrival.

For what it's worth, here is the full text of the article.

Newspaper Interview/Biography of John J. Horne, Newcastle Mounted Rifles. Published in The Natal Advertiser on January 24, 1929.

"A surprising number of lsandhlwana survivors has been revealed by the 50 years’ peace celebrations. Mr. John J. Horne, an organiser of the Newcastle Mounted Volunteer Corps in 1875, and one of the survivors of lsandhlwana, is still hale and hearty and lives in Durban.

His account of the preparations for the battle at lsandhlwana shed new light on why no laager was formed. He and his corps were stationed at the far end of the camp and two members of his corps, Berning and Dinckleman, were on vedette duty about four miles out of camp Dinckleman rode in to Home with the report that the natives were approaching in mass formation.

Colonel Durnford, then in command, rode up, and Home passed on the report to him. The Colonel ordered the dispatching of the ox wagons and the formation of a laager, but shortly afterwards Colonel Pullin rode up with an auxiliary force and the laager was not formed. Why the order was countermanded is not known to Horne.

Horne escaped the massacre with a shot through the leg. Mr. Horne's career has had more excitement during a year than most people have in their lives. In 1870 he was given an appointment in the Government service at Ladysmith. He joined the Natal Frontier Guards in 1871. In 1873 they were ordered out on the Langalibalele rebellion. He was one of the first volunteers to join up when the trouble started. During the course of the campaign he went into Basutoland by way of the Double Mountains and the Bushman's Pass, under Captain Ellis, where they captured their man and brought him to the gaol at Matitzburg. In the latter end of 1875 Mr. Horne was transferred to Newcastle, where he acted in many civic roles through the lack of other officials. Mr. Melmoth was magistrate of Newcastle at the time and when he received a request from a Major Dartnall to raise a mounted corps he asked Horne to do it. After official sanction had been obtained Horne raised a force of 37 men, whom he trained and drilled. In 1877 the Major inspected the corps and paid its organiser a compliment as to its efficiency. It was then brigaded with the Buffalo Border Guard between Newcastle and Dundee. A year later the corps was called up for the campaign the first leg of which ended in the disaster at Isandhlwana."

Looks like a confusion of Colonels, or is that the collective noun?

JY