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 Wagons at Isandlwana

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:54 am

Theres a wide spread belief that all the wagons were parked on the saddle. The individual companies had their waggons parked along the base of the mountain at the head of each of the camp areas. Theres nothing to suggest the NNC were any different in which case the NNC ammunition wagons would have been the closest to the firing lines. The Regimental reserve plus supplies were parked along the saddle. It depends really exactly where Lonsdales men were along the ridge, closest to Durnford would put the nearest wagons as either the 1st or 2nd/24th. Closer to the guns it would have been their own.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:57 am

Bonjour Frank,
Thank you for your answer.
Your response is not favorable to your own hypothesis if ammunitions came from Pullen. Very Happy
Cheers.

frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:59 am

I.E: "Closer to the guns, it would have been their own" (relative to your map posted on thsi thread and the position of Lonsdale)
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:01 am

Ulundi wrote:
How many rounds did a ammuntion box hold.

Ulundi,

600 (be careful; from memory).
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:12 am

Life (Hypothesis) is like the wind in a field of hay, one day the stalks bend to the North then another day to the South.
Moral of the story: Life (Hypothesis)depends on the prevailing forces............. Dong Zhongshu, Wink

Cheers mate.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:18 am

Frank wrote:
"It depends really exactly where Lonsdales men were along the ridge, closest to Durnford would put the nearest wagons as either the 1st or 2nd/24th".

Very interesting response that could explain both the decision of acceptance and refusal of officials from 24th (of ammunition reserves) to deliver ammunition to the men of the NNC.

Hypothesis:
We know that the Quartermaster Blomfield (2 / 24th) was very quickly killed and was probably surcharges by Essex and Smith Dorrien.
If Lonsdale's men asked to Smith-Dorrien and Essex for suppplémentaires ammunition: acceptance.
If Durnford's men have asked to Pullen (1/24th): refusal (the story of Little-boy ").

But i didn't check the sources before to write this message.

Just a thought

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:18 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
Life (Hypothesis) is like the wind in a field of hay, one day the stalks bend to the North then another day to the South.
Moral of the story: Life (Hypothesis)depends on the prevailing forces............. Dong Zhongshu, Wink

Cheers mate.

Very Happy
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:41 am

ymob wrote:
impi wrote:
Didn't Dunfords men have the Snider rifles.

From Neil Aspinshaw on this forum (Durnford's donga)
About the Edendale men:

"There is conflicting evidence, In the South African military history society journal Vol 7 No 6 1988 a thesis on Kambula by Dr F K Mitchell does write that the Edendale men were re-equipped with Swinburns, if so, it would chamber the conventional Mk3 577/450 military cartridge but I am looking for hard evidence they did, not supposition.

If they did, then the 24th's QMr would have had rounds, no doubt. Please bare in ming the Swinburn exisited since 1872 when JF Swinburn patented the action, a full five years before the carbine round existed, it was designed to accept the standard cartridge of the day".

Cheers

Frédéric
A link to Dr F K Mitchell's thesis on Kambula

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:44 am

It seems to me that the work of Mitchell is hotly debated.

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:54 am

ymob wrote:
It seems to me that the work of Mitchell is hotly debated.

Cheers

Whenever I read a thesis I like to know which reference material and research the author has used because it adds weight to said thesis, this is Dr F K Mitchell's reference list. He wouldn't get away with such a scant bibliography in higher education institutes.
The Zulu War and the Colony of Natal (Natal Provincial Administration).
•O Watkins, article in The Methodist Reader.
•Cmdt S Bourquin.
•Narrative of the Field Operations connected with the Zulu War of 1879,(London, 1881).
•D R Morris The Washing of the Spears (London, 1966).

Still, it was an interesting piece.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:04 am

Morning Frank

First La Rochefoucauld then Dong Zhongshu. I think it has to be Dr Allewell from now on, our resident professor of philosophy.  If only the debate remained at that level!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:47 am

Waterloo
Couldn't agree more. the only creditable source there is SB. Neil Aspinshaw very seldom offers an opinion that could be challenged.

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:39 pm

Good Day Frederic

I have learned one new thing. Frank saying that the ammunition wagons were parked at the head of the company tents. I take it that means between the camp and the hill. The firing  line is first at a 90 degree angle to the camp extending from its north end eastwards. So the nearest ammunition wagons are at that north end of the camp and the furthest at the saddle end. If the companies on the firing line are using their own ammunition the 24th have the furthest to go. I do not know if the handcarts or pack animals would go out to each individual company or start at one end and work along. As the line bends back at the eastern end those companies get closer to the ammunition located at the saddle end of the camp. I am trying to work out what that means for the companies in question. The trouble with this, like so many Isandhlwana events, is we don't know enough.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:54 pm

Bonjour Steve,

Happy to read your thoughts.
I am totally agree with your last analysis and your doubts.
I look forward to reading the results of your work.
If Frank's hypothesis can be proven, maybe new hypotheses can be advanced?
Now, I have to go to work (unfortunately).

Cheers

Frédéric

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:27 pm

ymob
Frederic, the location of each battalion's ammunition waggons WAS unquestionably between the rear of each camp and the mountain.
You wrote: "Why are not men of NNC who brought the ammunition boxes but two men of the 24th escorted by a Sergeant of the NNC?" Answer: 1. It was the duty of 1/24th bandsmen to act as ammunition carriers (and stretcher bearers) during a battle. 2. The 24th soldiers were not escorted by a sergeant of the NNC. He was helping them. It would have taken 3 men to carry 2 boxes. They had rope handles at either end.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:32 pm

Pity the guy in the middle!.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:37 pm

They were big strong Brummie lads in the 24th! But actually a good point.
But lo! We have an eye-witness stating that that was what he saw. One might argue that it might be a question of semantics: "carrying" in its broadest sense...might they have used a scotch cart to "carry" the ammunition? That's what the scotch carts were there for after all.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:59 pm

Mr Whybra,
Thank you very much for that clarification. I know the roles of Bandsman and stretcher bearers in battle, but I thought, wrongly obviously, that they were only carrying ammunition boxes of their battalions (with the exception of the gunners who may also have this role).
It's a shame because "my deduction" reinforced the hypothesis positioning Lonsdale on the right side of the firing line.

Encore merci.

Frédéric
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:47 pm

ymob wrote:
Ulundi wrote:
How many rounds did a ammuntion box hold.

Ulundi,

600 (be careful; from memory).
Cheers

Thanks Ymob.
So if two ammuntion boxes were seen being delivered to the companies, consisting of 80 armed men. 1200 rounds divided by 80 men is an additional 15 rounds each, hardly going to make an impact?
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90th

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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:00 am

Hi Steve
I wonder where the Zulu would've been turned to , perhaps the local KFC scratch . That's one thing I've noticed over there you don't see any Maccas Shocked , out here there is one on nearly every corner No , but there are plenty of KFC's ! Very Happy Very Happy
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:05 am

Back on topic.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:08 am

Bonjour Admin,
You have removed at least two messages that were specific to this thread.

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:15 am

Re-post. If there was not so much arguing, I wouldn't have to delete anything. Those that want to argue take it to the ring section,and leave the topics alone.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:17 am

Thank you for your courtesy. I was absolutely not concerned by the excesses of this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:18 am

I was concern! Perhaps that's the difference.
Apologies for deleting your posts.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:22 am

Admin,
Thank you.
Cheers
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:22 am

Thank you!
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:28 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
ymob
Frederic, the location of each battalion's ammunition waggons WAS unquestionably between the rear of each camp and the mountain.
You wrote: "Why are not men of NNC who brought the ammunition boxes but two men of the 24th escorted by a Sergeant of the NNC?"  Answer: 1.  It was the duty of 1/24th bandsmen to act as ammunition carriers (and stretcher bearers) during a battle.  2.  The 24th soldiers were not escorted by a sergeant of the NNC.  He was helping them.  It would have taken 3 men to carry 2 boxes.  They had rope handles at either end.

Bonsoir à tous,
Without jeopardizing this comment from Mr Whybra, I think my initial assumption is always possible. It is only more difficult to demonstrate.
Mr Whybra and Mr Allewell (since his title of Doctor) wrote that the location of each battalion's ammunition waggons was unquestionably between the rear of each camp and the mountain. According to Frank: "The individual companies had their waggons parked along the base of the mountain at the head of each of the camp areas. Theres nothing to suggest the NNC were any different in which case the NNC ammunition wagons would have been the closest to the firing lines. The Regimental reserve plus supplies were parked along the saddle. It depends really exactly where Lonsdales men were along the ridge, closest to Durnford would put the nearest wagons as either the 1st or 2nd/24th. Closer to the guns it would have been their own".

Hypothesis:
Given the situation, the men of Lonsdale could go to the nearest ammunition wagons, those of the 24th.

So, it might be interesting to answer to this question: Who was to receive the ammunition prepared by Essex (scotch card) and Smith-Dorrien?

Only the men of the 2/24th ?

Otherwise, remember that the refusal of Bloomfield (2/24th) to SD to give him ammunitions was interpreted by the majority of the historians because of the order received by Chelmsford (ammunition wagon ready for the Mangeni).
Maybe, Bloomfield had (this reason and / or) another reason in mind?
I have in mind the case of the Quartermaster Pullen of the 1/24th (his refusal to give ammunitions to the Durnford Troopers)

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:46 am

Frederic

I think there is something in what you say. I do not have evidence but I think the likes of Broomfield would be reluctant to release ammunition to anyone other than the 24th companies while they were functioning normally on the firing line. His stock of ammunition is calculated to supply his own companies at a particular rate and giving some away will affect the performance of those companies. I think the situation changes when the line is broken and the fighting becomes more of a free for all. At that point it seems more likely that ammunition would be given to whoever manages to reach the supplies.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:15 am

Bonjour Steve,
Same thoughts.
The key point, I think, is the premature death of Bloomfield and his sustituting by SD and Essex.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:21 am

FREDERIC.  
1.  EACH COY WOULD GO TO ITS OWN AMMUNITION WAGGON BEHIND ITS BATTALION’S CAMP.   THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE GONE TO THE NEAREST.
2.  BLOOMFIELD'S DEATH WAS NOT PREMATURE - HE WAS HIT BY A STRAY BULLET - THE ZULUS MUST HAVE BEEN QUITE CLOSE FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.
3.  THERE IS NO SUGGESTION ANYWHERE THAT BLOOMFIELD WAS SUBSTITUTED BY ESSEX OR S-D.  IN FACT THERE IS DIRECT EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.
Ooops, sorry, I wasn't shouting, caps key accidentally pressed.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:47 am

Bonjor Mr Whybra,
I do not pretend to challenge your record sources ( too many respect for your work) but I am sincerly amazed by your point 3.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:42 am

Mr Whybra,

I read again, "Hill of the Sphinx" p.40 and my comment about the point 3 seems to be OK with Mr Jackson.
Iam looking forward your answer. Again a good day to learn.

Others,
Number of cartridges per rifleman (Lonsdale Coy): 15 (p. 40)

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:49 am

Otherwise (point 1), according to Jackson, Essex says he was asked to procure a fresh supply of ammunition for Cavaye and Mostyn (1/24th)and Essex was assisted by...Bloomfield (2/24th) 
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:44 am

Hi Frederic
I think this is a question of language.
Essex may well have been asked by Cavaye and Mostyn to assist in the ammo re-supply of their coys. He was assisted by Bloomfield, the quartermaster of the other battalion.
Bloomfield's assistance does not mean that he was supplying ammunition from his own battalion's waggon.
It may well have been the case that QM-Sergt. Davis was supplying Pope and Dyer and Bloomfield was lending Essex a hand with the left of the line. Perhaps Pullen was dealing with the right of the line.
Essex never says that he replaced Bloomfield when he was killed. He mentions much minutiae so I am sure he would have mentioned it if he had been ordered to do so. Ditto Smith-Dorrien.
I am sure Bloomfield was in several places on the field. It is important when examining reports of his actions that they are not conflated in time or space.
(The precise meaning of my words is important. If you're not sure exactly what I mean I can write it in French and pm you.)
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:00 am

It has always seemed to me,( probably completely wrong), that the arrangements for ammunition distribution was a bit haphazard, with runners needing to leave the firing line to search for ammunition, rather than their need being anticipated.
Both Essex and Smith-Dorrien were special duty officers, - what if they had been engaged elsewhere and not able to help with distribution ? Would it have functioned less efficiently ?
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:18 am

Mr Whybra,
Many thanks for your answer.
Need for me to study very carefully your answer.
A priori, the key point is: "I am sure Bloomfield was in several places on the field. It is important when examining reports of his actions that they are not conflated in time or space".

I.E: Sorry, Tobby is the avatar of my father.

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:35 pm

Mr Whybra,
To be honest, I don't think it's a langage problem, even though my knwoledge of English langage is pathetic.
I believe that your explanations challenge the beliefs of people passionate by the battle of Isandhlwana, even (maybe) the experts. Your explanations deserve to be developed. Too many unanswered questions.
For me, its not a conventional view.
Why don't you write an essay on this subject?
Anyway, your allegations are exciting.

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Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:42 pm

Mr Whybra,
I do not think I betrayed the allegations from Jackson in "Hill of the Sphinx" . Do you understand that I mean?

Cheers

frédéric

Et encore merci.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:49 pm

Julian
"Bloomfield's assistance does not mean that he was supplying ammunition from his own battalion's waggon."
I would disagree: Smith Dorrien there is the famous quote" For heavens sake. don't take that. man, it belongs to our Battalion........." He was I believe 2/24th. That would be a precise indicator for me that the ammunition being handed out was indeed the 2/24th. As Bloomfield was shot after this incident and Essex was present I would suggest that the time schedule would be
1) Essex gathers men plus an officer and sends them out to the line.
2) Bloomfield dies while Essex is still busy loading his mule cart
3) Essex takes his mule cart to the line.
Smith Dorriens account has therefore to slot between 1 and 2.

My difficulty here is the quantity of ammunition put aside onto the wagon borrowed from either the 1/24 or the MI for Chelmsford. Would the full Battalion reserve have been earmarked? If so would there have indeed been a 'Battalion wagon above the 2/24th camp area? Coghill mentions 2000 Rations? Would that be rations over ammunition or a referral to 2000 rounds?


Cheers


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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:56 pm

Eaton
Runners from the line would not have to 'search' for the ammo waggons. They would know where they were.

Frank
S-D was at the waggon ready to go out to LC "at a moment's notice"; it doesn't mean he was near the 2nd bn ammo waggon. How much later Bloomfield was shot cannot be determined, but some time, 1 to 2 certainly.
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eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:12 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Eaton
Runners from the line would not have to 'search' for the ammo waggons.  They would know where they were.

Frank
S-D was at the waggon ready to go out to LC "at a moment's notice"; it doesn't mean he was near the 2nd bn ammo waggon.  How much later Bloomfield was shot cannot be determined, but some time, 1 to 2 certainly.

Perhaps I should have used 'seek' instead of 'search' There were several ammunition wagons and and the runners may need to have gone passed nearer one in order to get to 'theirs'. Durnford's men weren't sure where their wagon was and presumably tried to get ammunition from the nearest one.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:21 pm

Hi Julian you posted as I was editing my post with just that question. But even if it was that 'reserve wagon it still was the 2/24th ammunition. And if it was ready to go at a moments notice, would it have been 'parked in' behind the camp or freed up on the saddle? I would speculate that as it was coming from a regiment camped closer to the saddle it would indeed have been in that local.
Eaton
All the ammunition wagons were marked with a red flag.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:25 pm

Thanks, I didn't know about the flags on the wagons.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:35 pm

I realize that my messages could be construed as criticism or having suspicions against the allégations from Mr Whybra.
Evidently, it was not the case.
I really think that he understood / discovered things that most of us do not.

Cheers.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:46 pm

Frank
Whatever else they were the officers of the 24th and the staff were sticklers for carrying out LC's orders.
I am sure that those waggons (provisions and ammo) that LC had asked to be readied for departure at a moment's notice weere so readied and placed on the track or adjacent to it, with oxen inspanned, ready to be moved. They would have been close to both 1and 2/24th camps therefore but not necessarily near the ammo waggons behind those camps (and therefore not close to Pullen/Bloomfield either).
In fact until Pope came in to action when the battle was well-advanced, once he had prepared the bn ammo waggon's boxes for use and distribution, Bloomfield would have had nothing to do. Perhaps he lent a hand where and as necessary to the other QMs and the supply line.

Eaton
Seek/search...I think they would have taken a direct route to their particular camp's waggon and certainly the shortest way back.

Frederic
Not at all, mon vieux!
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:46 pm

Frederic
Don't be worried about challenging, its all in the spirit of debate.

Cheers
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:56 pm

Frank,

I am not always certain to express my exact thoughts in English.
In the recent past, I have done something wrong unintentionally.

Cheers

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:06 pm

And everyone on this side La Manche would take that into account no doubt...You manage very well in English in a difficult specialized area of language.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:20 pm

Mr Whybra
Thank you very much.

WinkSalute
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