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 Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed

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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:13 pm

Chard1879,

Have you tried looking for the South African definition of the word drift?

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:49 pm

Well let's hope Drift has a meaning.
The defence of Rorke's Ford doesn't quite do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:58 pm

Littlehand
Can I just check...did you post that massive quotation just because in it Sothondose's Drift was mentioned (which you emboldened)?
Was there any other reason? (I'm just wondering if I missed something.)
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:56 pm

It just happened that name of the gaff was Rorkes Drift!. point being
if it was Rorkes Ford it would be just the same..ie, the place where
' The Immortal Defence ' took place. any name would have received
the same acclamation.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:59 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Littlehand
Can I just check...did you post that massive quotation just because in it Sothondose's Drift was mentioned (which you emboldened)?
Was there any other reason?  (I'm just wondering if I missed something.)


I think Littlehand applied "Boolean Logic" Me thinks you have seen something else with in LH's post Shocked That's the problem with corners, you can't see around them. What's LH got, he's been Silent for sometime.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:58 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Julian Whybra wrote:
Littlehand
Can I just check...did you post that massive quotation just because in it Sothondose's Drift was mentioned (which you emboldened)?
Was there any other reason?  (I'm just wondering if I missed something.)


I think Littlehand applied "Boolean Logic" Me thinks you have seen something else with in LH's post Shocked That's the problem with corners, you can't see around them. What's LH got, he's been Silent for sometime.

1) I don't know what "Boolean Logic" and not really interested in what it is!

2) I have been silent for two reasons, Work and Working on my loft conversion!

3) Yes Julian just because Sothondose's Drift was mentioned! Perhaps I should have made the quotation smaller.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:58 am

A 'Drift of Daffodils' ?
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:19 am

LH
Thanks.  I really did just want to be sure in case there was something I missed.
Don't dismiss Booleian Logic - Churchill was a great believer in it.  He hated maths but he could see the value of it when applied to logical thinking.

CTSG
He didn't and there wasn't apparently.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:49 pm

Samuel Johnson is always worth a look when it comes to definitions. I have an 1785 edition of his folio Dictionary of the English Language (which means you sometimes have to read an "f" as an "s').  This is just part of what he says about "drift".
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Look at 4. and 6. and I think you can see the derivation of the use of "drift" in SA (and elsewhere). "A thing driven along in a body", "a heap of stratum thrown together".

So in this instance the "drift" is the accumulation of rocks and sediment in the water at a particular place that allows easier crossing. Good man was Johnson, and his cat.

Steve
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:40 pm

rusteze

Note that Johnson is giving an English usage above.
In the South African usage the word 'drift' comes from Old Dutch not English. The Oxford English Dictionary definition no. 17 gives its first recorded written use in this sense as 1849:

17. S. Afr. [ < col. Dutch drift.] A passage of a river; a ford.

1849 E. E. Napier Excursions Southern Afr. II. 401 The road..crosses two or three ‘drifts’ or fords.
1852 F. Fleming Kaffraria (1854) 46 Where the road crosses a river, what is called a drift is made..by clearing the bed of the river of large stones, and cutting a sloping roadway through the banks on either side.
1856 C. J. Andersson Lake Ngami 320 The passage of the Orange river..at what is called Zendlings Drift, or the missionary ford.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:52 pm

Interesting. I have no knowledge of the Dutch derivation, but I wonder if it has the same root in an old Germanic language as the English one? The Boks on the forum might know.

Steve
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:21 pm

OED etymological derivation of the English word 'drift':
from Early Middle English 'drift' (not recorded in Old English) corresponding to Old Frisian drift (in ur-drift), Middle Dutch, Dutch drift, Middle High German trift, German trift passage for cattle, drove, Old Norse drift snow-drift, (Swedish, Danish drift ); verbal abstract from the Old English verb 'drifan' to drive, expel, pursue.

In other words the noun 'drift' did not exist in Old English but entered the language in the Early Middle English period (12th century) as a verbal extraction from the Old English verb 'drifan' to mean 'that which is driven'.  It corresponds to, but does not derive from, the other Germanic languages as above, if you get my drift.

The C19th South African English 'drift' (ford) would have simply been adopted from the Old Dutch/Afrikaans 'drift'.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:39 pm

I think I get your drift. That says to me that it comes from an even earlier root as it appears in all of the germanic languages (the verb driffen in Old English etc.). What I wonder is does it refer to the formation of the crossing itself, or the act of crossing it (ie to "ford" - a word we use more readily in both cases). I think the former. But we are in danger of stirring up the natives again!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:42 pm

Drift in Afrikans is sometimes written as Drif, without the t. As I posted earlier its also locally used to describe a field of flowers.
Interestingly though there are a number of towns in the North such as Zoutspandrift ( Salt Water Ford)and that's without any English influence. Boschpad Drift is similar. all named around the 1870 to 1880 times.
So English influence?
Not many old English around in those days.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:02 pm

This is madness, there's nothing to explain why it's called a Drift. Was it a Military terminology invented by the British.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:03 pm

I think we are moving away from the initial enquiry.  

I believe also we should looking at contemporary accounts for the use of the phrase 'Fugitives' Drift' - such as Brickhill, Norris-Newman or Wilsone Black who wrote the account of his searches to the bodies of Melvill & Coghill, and the Queen's Colour 1/24th now in Regimental Records and not text compiled by modern day authors such IK etc


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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:07 pm

Ray63,

No it is not a military term, it was Rorke's Drift before the battle.

As I mentioned earlier look up the South Africa definition of the word drift.

Kenny,

I could not agree more.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:09 pm

We are all missing the point, it is obviously Welsh. We are indeed moving away from the initial enquiry, but an interesting little meander anyway. I think Julian has probably got what he wanted from Frederic.

Steve
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:21 pm

John Young wrote:
Ray63,

No it is not a military term, it was Rorke's Drift before the battle.

As I mentioned earlier look up the South Africa definition of the word drift.

Kenny,

I could not agree more.

John Y.

John, I have looked up South Africa definition, it come back to a "Ford" if you know different can you please post the difinition if you know.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:23 pm

Bonsoir  Steve,
Thank you for your confidence, but
It's not the case.
Amitié
Fred
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:01 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Wow, excellent result, 13th May 1879.  I wonder how soon it passed into common local parlance.  Pretty soon I imagine.
All right, many thanks Fred and Frank, that's nailed that one.

Is this no longer the case?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:01 pm

"Drift A shallow river crossing point.

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If that was the case why did they need "Ponts" to cross?
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:02 pm

Ray63,

There you have your answer, it is crossing point on a river.

So not invented British military terminology at all.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:06 pm

LH,

Because the depth of water and the strength of the current changes.

Hence the need for the ferries.

John Y.


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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:17 pm

So a seasonal crossing point.

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:50 pm

rusteze wrote:
Julian Whybra wrote:
Wow, excellent result, 13th May 1879.  I wonder how soon it passed into common local parlance.  Pretty soon I imagine.
All right, many thanks Fred and Frank, that's nailed that one.

Is this no longer the case?

Steve

I found anything else before the telegram of the 13th May.
What is  (maybe) interesting is that the term was used by LC before the publication in the press of the graphic account from Forbes (after his visit to Isandhlwana the 21 May).

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:00 am

ymob/steve
It is still the case.

all
drift = ford in Old Dutch, and thus in Afrikaans, and thus in C19th S Africa.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:30 am

Chard1879 wrote:
A ford is a shallow place with good footing where a river or stream may be crossed by wading, or inside a vehicle getting its wheels wet. A ford is mostly a natural phenomenon, in contrast to a low water crossing, which is an artificial bridge that allows crossing a river or stream when water is low.

I can't find any definition of a Drift, that makes sense in the context we want.

As said yesterday !
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:19 am

Ford's and Drifts, some nice paintings & Photographs.

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:24 am

"Fugitives Drift" mentioned in a letter from Harness, written 24th May 1879.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:28 am

In what context is it mentioned.?
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:11 am

The Bashee Lower Drift
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The same drift with the banks cut away to allow access, That's Shiyane in the background. This drift is in a direct line with iSandlwana and was part of the old road. (Pre Military Road)
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:13 am

LH
In the context of its name having existed!
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:52 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
LH
In the context of its name having existed!
LH,
I haven't a better answer!
To be more serious, after his visit at Isandhlwana the 21_22 May.
Around the 13th May, Francis Francis, Archibald Forbes and Melton Prior were at the same area (letters from Harness 11th and 13th May) and Harness met them.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:53 am

And looking up stream towards Sihayo's Kraal
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:41 am

Actually, I found nothing about the expression " Fugitives' Drift" in the accounts written after the visit of Isandhlwana the 14th March or the 15th May.
If it is really the case, it seems that the expression became popular after the visit around the 21 th May.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:34 am

That would make a lot of sense. If the burial parties had begun their earliest work in front of the mountain and on the saddle, they perhaps would be working down towards the drift more by 21 May visit and had a greater need to call it something.

Steve
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PostSubject: FUGITIVES DRIFT   Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:22 pm

Hi All,
On a point of correctness, my many versions of the Afrikaans Woordeboeks do not list the word "drift".
They do however describe a "driwwe" as a ford or river crossing. This is what Fugitives is of course. So "drift" is an English corruption of the word driwwe, which was probably had its source in high Dutch. However within the Afrikaans language there has also been corruption where the English "drift"  has later become drif, ie without the "t".
Now Sothondose's  which is at the centre of all this scrutiny, was a specific crossing of stepping stones located at the confluence of the mZinyathi river and the  Bashee stream  flowing in from the north, ie the Zulu side.
Common usage however tended to refer to a longish section of the river from the pumping station and Black's Sangar ( near where Bmdr Smiths remains are) in the south to the small  cliffs at SD's pool ( ie where Smith Dorrien lept in pistolless) as "Fugitives" Drift. This stretch of river included Sothandose's drif.
The first usage of this name Fugitives Drift I believe occurred in early February 1879. I will confirm this shortly when I am back from a sojourn at the coast.

barry.

PS: Nomovoyos is not related, it is on another stream.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:48 pm

barry wrote:
Hi All,


The first usage of this name Fugitives Drift I believe occurred in early February 1879. I will confirm this shortly when I am back from a sojourn at the coast.

barry.

.

Bonjour Barry,
Intriguing by your comment, I took a look in your transcripts  from Tpr Clarke (NMP).
Effectively, Tpr Clarke mentioned the expression "Fugitives Drift" ....the 24th January!
But I have a doubt: do you think that the expression has been written really the 24th January or added much later (journal "re-written"  as Harford).
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:52 pm

Do you mean 'My Career in South Africa' in the KCAL by Trpr. W J Clarke?
If so, that's written later.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:57 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Do you mean 'My Career in South Africa' in the KCAL by Trpr. W J Clarke?
If so, that's written later.

Mr Whybra,

I don't know what Barry had in mind when He wrote his comment.I just assumed that his source was Clarke. It's just an hypothesis.
If my memory is not faulty, Barry's "books" (from Tpr Clarke) are more complet that "My carrer in S.A".
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:58 pm

ymob
Right. I was assuming it was the KCAL typescript you meant.

Barry
A word of caution. Modern Afrikaans is very different in spelling and pronunciation from C19th Dutch and very different again from the Dutch of the 1600s when they first settled in SA and when the language would have been closer to Old Dutch. You will need to look at the etymological derivation of 'driwwe' to find out what it would have been at the time when drifts were first being named in the 1600s round the Cape. I suspect that it would have been very close to if not the same as 'drift'.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:23 pm

Mr Whybra,
It seems to me that "My career in SA" is a summary of the Barry's journals (written by Clarke).
Happy to be corrected.
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:13 pm

ymob
I am sure you are right. I hadn't realized you were referring to the journals.
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PostSubject: Fugitives ' Drift ; A little help needed .    Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:02 am

Ymob / JW
Barry does in fact have Trpr Clarke's original written notes / Journal / Diaries etc . agree
90th Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:25 am

Perhaps Barry might clarify whether these were written contemporaneously or were written up later in life? (Thanks, in advance.)
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PostSubject: Fugitives Drift   Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:28 am

Hi JW and  Ymob,
I had hoped to find a mention of Fugitives in prof Eric Rosenthal's  "Encylopedia of South Africa", but was unsuccessful, and perhaps, earlier, in the Diary of Henry Francis Fyn from  when it have may have been known as Sothandose's. The latter was silent on this too.
To answer your two questions, yes Col Clarke's reminisences, titled "My career in South Africa" were compiled in the early '30's, shortly before his decease. His original diaries were used as the basis but he included many additional comments and insights , sometimes on matters not appearing in the original hand written diaries. The total work translated into 100+ A4 pages and was very much a summary of his life's doings.  
The original 9 manuscript sized volumes of his original hand written diaries,  detailed in a good 1200 manuscript size pages, on the other hand, were based on the information recorded daily in his pocket book. Each trooper in the NMP was required to write his observations down daily, in his pocket book.
Trooper Clarke collated the pocket book contents weekly and wrote up the events in full based on the brief notes recorded.
I have already posted transcripts from Tpr Clarke's diaries on this forum which records mention of "Fugitives  Drift" on the 24th of January 1879.  The particular  posting on this day was in connection with NMP Trooper Stevens escaping Isandlwana on foot , finding his horse on the way to the drift and thus getting away on it.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:47 am

Barry, time to get of your backside and get this lot down in a book. Salute
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:03 am

Just in case people cannot find Barry's earlier transcripts they are here.
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Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Fugitives' Drift: a little help needed   Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:12 pm

Bonjour Barry,
Thak you very much for your answer.
So, Tpr Clarke was one of the first man to use the expression...
Cheers.
Frédéric
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