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 ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:55 pm

From the Medal Roll at Kew
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:02 pm

Hi Steve
Dates fit with the withdrawl of the FLH from the Eastern Transvaal. But any thoughts as to why would he, as Gary suggests, be entitled to a Zululand 79 bar?
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:34 pm

Hi Frank
In ' For God , Queen & Colony ' by Terry Sole , the Frontier Light Horse Roll is from Aldershot and dated 1 / 9 / 80 , it has Trooper Tinling 232 , Date of Enrolment 27/ 8 / 78 - Discharged 31/ 10 / 78 Engaged against Sekukuni . These dates tie in with the First Campaign against Sekukuni Commanded by Col Rowlands VC who basically had to turn back due to a lack of water . There are only 3 or 4 others who are listed as ( only ) seeing service against Sekukuni , these other 3 or 4 were discharged after Tinling . They are all in the Forsyth Roll as being entitled to the Clasp 1879 . I doubt he was with Wood's Column , as the Roll clearly lists many who did fight against the Zulus & the Gaikas - Galekas for that matter , as we know nothing is set in stone when looking through records and Rolls etc .
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Gary
Fully agree the records are shrouded in mystery. My queerie is he serves against Sekukuni and is discharged when hostilities were broken of in October 78. No more heard from him after 78 so cannot understand why he would be entitled to a 79 bar? Another of the mad mad mysteries?
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Steve
And thanks , wish I knew how to do that , would make explaining things so much easier , as I said in my previous post , the other 3 or 4 men who discharged their Service in 1878 ( along wih Trp Tinling ) and only listed as fighting Sekukuni , are also mentioned in the other Rolls as being entitled to the 1879 clasp . This seems to be way in which the medal was bestowed . The Sekukuni problem wasn't sorted till Oct - Nov 79 which probably explains the 1879 Clasp. Hope this makes sense ? .
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:49 pm

Hi Gary/Frank

I think the answer is that he is entitled to a bar because he meets the criteria for engagement against Sekukuni, the 1877/78 wasn't appropriate so all that was left was 1879 (and as Gary says the Sekukuni affair wasn't settled until 1879), so although he was discharged in 1878 he gets the 1879 bar rather than none.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:54 pm

Hi Steve/GAry
Sorry Gary our posts crossed, that makes sense. Just to put it to bed though are there any exceptions, in that, any other FLH that served in 78 that got a 79 bar or a 78 bar?

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:56 pm

Again crossed posts, question answered.

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:00 pm

Salute
90th Very Happy
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Markus135



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:06 pm

Wow, this is all very interesting, you gents really know your stuff. I have Tinling's medal, came down through the family, not sure how it originally got into our family though. So any tips on how to confirm value, and parties that might be interested in buying it ?
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:05 am

Markus Auction Houses can give you an estimation , actually we have a medal dealer on here , I'll let him possibly contact you . As I said in an earlier post you would be looking at 750 + GBP's , if there was any documented evidence he was with Wood's Column , ie at Kambula or Hlobane , it would certainly be worth in excess of 850 + GBP's .
90th Shocked
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:06 am

The Army order sanctioning the South Africa Medal 1877-8-9 was a General Order by HRH the Field Marshal C-i-C, dated 1st August 1880, No. 103.  The First Sekukuni War was not included in the operations qualifying for receipt of this medal.
Section III of this Order stated that the Queen approved a clasp to be attached for various operations; for operations in the Zulu and Sekukuni campaigns the Year on the clasp was to be 1879.
An Amending Order (General Order, October 1880, No. 134, Section I) stated that "The provisions of GO 103 of 1880 will apply to the Forces engaged against Sekukuni in 1878".
Thus, by GO 134 Section I Tinling qualified for receipt of the medal, and by GO 103 Section III the clasp was to state '1879'.
A case of the Army doing things by the Book, even when they seem illogical to C21st minds.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:38 am

Well done Julian. I remember going behind the scenes at the Army Medals Office on official business when it was at Droitwich in Worcestershire. It dealt with all claims for the issue of medals and bars going way back. It relied on huge volumes of notes compiled over the years about relevant service dates and locations which had to be proved before entitlement was approved. Specialists in each campaign, some very ancient themselves, were the guardians of the information. As you say, the Army went by the book even when the decisions looked faintly ludicrous. They will still issue 2WW medals if you can prove entitlement - I got my old Dad's a while ago, he had never bothered to claim them when he was alive.

Steve
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:36 pm

rusteze
Interestingly enough I am just about to try and do the same for my dad. His army service total of days fell just short of the number entitling him to claim medals but part of his subsequent war service was in the AFS, which would take him over the entitlement barrier. I've been told all AFS records were bombed and destroyed in 1945 and therefore I won't be able to prove his service. Whether that's true or not I don't know but the AFS became the NFS in 1941 and I believe its records have just been/are being transferred to Kew whilst the NFS Museum is refurbished. So I shall have another avenue to explore.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:20 pm

I don't know about AFS records specifically, but I do believe that much more survives than they usually let on (or perhaps even know about!). I also spent some time back in the 80's working at the MOD records store at Hays where all the 2WW service papers are held (or were). None have so far been released, but when they are people are going to be impressed. There were acres of shelves on multiple levels. The Medals Office would access those records to try and prove entitlement.

I think the Army Medals Office has now been co-located with the RAF Personnel records at RAF Innsworth near Gloucester. I went there as well many years ago. Being the junior service, they were inordinately proud of their state of the art file recovery system - no computers then. They had an amazing mechanical system that located a persons file and, through a system of cogs wheels and chains, spat it out of a huge letterbox contraption. A bit like Willie Wonka's chocolate factory! The Army on the other hand would simply send a porter into the bowels of the archive with a trolley to try and find an individual soldiers file. Gone for days sometimes!

Hope you get your Dad's medals. If you do they will come in a little cardboard box just like in the 1940's - indeed just like the Crimea medal did a hundred years before. Some things never change.

We are a bit off topic!

Steve
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:22 pm

We are. But many thanks for the brief digression. Sorry, all.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:28 am

Hi 90th, you mentioned their is a medal dealer on this forum.  How do I go about confirming value of the medal I have, and go about sellling it ? Any advice would be much appreciated.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:13 am

Markus135
I've sent you a Priv Msge .
90th Salute
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