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Lt. Melvill: Well done, Sir! Did you see that Noggs? Deceived him with the up and took him with the down. Norris-Newman: Well well, this one\'s a grandfather at least. If he\'d been a Zulu in his prime I\'d have given odds against your lancer, Mr.Melvill.
 
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 ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS

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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu May 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Just to throw something else into the pot.

Charles Norris-Newman who served as special correspondent for The London Standard in the Zulu War.

During this time I (Norris-Newman) and a friend of mine named Palmer, who had accompanied the expedition as conductor, with a lot of waggons, had each got a rifle, and were steadily taking pot-shots, at any native who made himself visible, from the top of the waggon, which position gave us great advantage. Palmer (who is a crack shot, having hunted large game in the interior for years) brought several to the ground. One shot in particular was a great success; about a hundred yards off, - straight in front of us, thre Zulus had managed to gain shelter of a thick bush, whose roots formed an impenetrable barrier to even our hot fire, and it was from this bush that the shot was fires which killed poor Johnson (2nd Lieutenant G C J Johnson, 99th Regiment). His death was, however, quickly avenged, as we both arranged to wait quietly until the Zulus fired again, and then taking good aim we fired together just as two of them raised themselves on their knees to get fair aim. The one aimed at by Palmer sprung up high in the air, with outstretched arms, and fell backwards dead, shot clean through the forehead, as we found out afterwards, the one I aimed at was only wounded, but in a little while both he and the third Zulu were killed by some of the 99th. After the battle the three were found close together, and Palmer and I took and divided the trophies of war, including their native dress, arms, and accoutrements; and we kept them yet, as most prized and hardy won trophies.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 6:50 am

That's an interesting pot Andy. And a pretty good 'pot' from Palmer.
The first report appeared in The Standard' the special correspondent was Noggs, Noggs has a friend called Palmer. Whats the odds?
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 7:12 am

I quick look on the internet, reveals more questions about Noggs than answers about Palmer.

He was a bit of a 'character'.......
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 7:21 am

There was a Deputy Commissary-General Palmer:-

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Could this be that same friend of Noggs (though maybe not the Hlobane fella)?
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 7:29 am

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 8:13 am

There were no Ferreira's Horse attached to Wood's column at Hlobane.
The paper definitely states that Palmer was rescued and survived whereas Parminter was killed so they seem to rule one another out.
I think Palmer may have been an NCO and in the report the NC may have been omitted and I also think that if no man called Palmer can be found at all, the name is incorrect. It could easily be any name ending in -er for example, the memorable bit.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 10:23 am

Maybe his real name was Kelly and Palmer was just nickname... Joker

Please forgive my flippancy. No

JY
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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 10:24 am

I really appreciate the excerpt from Huw Jones book and the original article from the Standard - great stuff. The Huw Jones article in Natalia is excellent stuff. Dennison's account does not paint Woods in a good light. Which is why it's been suppressed for so long I guess. And Jones has presented it beautifully. Plus all the background on Weatherley and others which helps to get a more accurate feeling of the events.

It would be great if the Palmer mystery could be solved.

Is it known how many survivors there were from the Border Horse?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 10:54 am

steve
There were present Lieut.-Col. F. A. Weatherley and 53 officers and ORs of the Border Horse.
KIA were Lieut.-Col. F. A. Weatherley, Lieuts. Lys, Pool, Sub-Lieuts. Parminter, R. Weatherley, RSM Brown, Sergt.-Maj. Fisher, QMS Russell, ORS Brissenden, Pay.-Sergt. Johnson, Farrier-Maj. Freire, Trumpet-Maj. Meredith, Sergt. Stewart, Corps. Blackmore, Coetzee, Ford, Porter, van Hasselt, Lance-Corp. Bernhardt, Trptr. Reilly, Trprs. Barth, Bourdoin, Brooks, Cameron, Craig, Craney, Darcy, Evans, Farquharson, Hartman, Jeffries, King, Mann, Martin, Milma, Jacob Muller, Jno. Muller, Mulot, Reid, Shephard, Thompson, Underwood, Westhusan, Williams, Wynan
Total 45
MIA was Trpr. Grandier
Total 1 (later rescued)
WIA was Trpr. Hammond
Total 1
i.e. 7 survivors plus Hammond and eventually Grandier = 9


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri May 18, 2018 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 12:26 pm

John Young wrote:
Maybe his real name was Kelly and Palmer was just nickname... Joker

Please forgive my flippancy. No

JY

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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri May 18, 2018 10:05 pm

very good!
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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat May 19, 2018 8:13 pm

Julian, many thanks for that excellent list - Steve
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu May 24, 2018 9:59 am

[quote="Julian Whybra"]The paper definitely states that Palmer was rescued and survived whereas Parminter was killed so they seem to rule one another out.[quote]

I was reading JL 'Rise and Fall'...... last night and on page 315 - it mentions Lt Parmenter of Bakers Horse at Ulundi.

Is this an error on JL behalf or possibly another man different to Lt Parminter?

Cheers

Sime
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu May 24, 2018 10:40 am

It's possible - the names are similar enough and Baker's Horse were also at Hlobane. But proof, Watson! Proof!
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu May 24, 2018 12:27 pm

Why not take a look at http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t3848-major-w-g-parminter-late-bakers-horse

That way you might have your answer.

I would venture the Prof’ has made a faux pas or a typo’.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Thu May 24, 2018 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu May 24, 2018 12:38 pm

Damn and blast....there goes my last shot at being considered 'serious'........back to being a silly student.....


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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:51 pm

This Archer issue is not over yet ...

It turns out John W W Archer was known to his friends as Jack. John Young, earlier in this thread mentioned "There was a Sergeant Archer serving in the Buffalo Border Guard, sadly no forename or initial shown, from Dundee, Natal."

On Victorian Wars site here http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?t=4709 there is a list of BBG members in Jan 1879, which includes a Jack Archer. Could this Jack Archer be the same Sgt Archer mentioned by John?

And then more speculation - is it possible that Jack Archer of the BBG after surviving Isandlwana, then joined the Border Horse, was listed as Cpl John Archer and went on to survive Hlobane in March? Too far fetched? Could be two different men?

With the scant records available to the ordinary person, not easy to sort these things out. Any comments would be great.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:29 am

Hi Steve
I looked through Dutton's ' Forgotten Heroes ' and listed in the BBG there's a Sgt Archer ( no initials ) Medal with Clasp 1879 , and also a Trpr Archer ( which states '' not on Medal Roll '' ) , two Archers ? .
90th Very Happy
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:28 pm

And there's this from 1983, some good info.

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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:24 pm

Thanks 90th - that's interesting that there are two Archers listed - pity there are no initials.

It is definitely possible that there were two Archers. For example, on the roll of the Western Light Horse some 20 years later, there is a Tpr Jno Wm Walter Archer and a SSM John Wm Archer side by side. I'm pretty sure the Tpr Jno Wm Walter Archer is my gg uncle, but not sure who the other is ...

Just heard a story yesterday from a cousin, told to him many years ago by his grandfather:
- Jack Archer was a scout at Isandlwana. When the order was given "every man for himself" he raised his sowrd and shouted "if you want to get out of here, follow me". Those who did hacked their way out through the Zulu warriors

May be some truth in it!
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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:03 am

@xhosa thanks for the book suggestion - will try find a copy
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:55 am

Hi Les
Yes that's a very good book , certainly worth having .
Steve.333
The book on the Buffalo Boder Guard is extremely hard to find , there is one currently on ebay.com sitting at , or near 50 GBP's , Postage is another 17 GBP's , when I've seen them they are always expensive .
90th Salute
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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:01 am

Thanks 90th - that is quite pricy - will keep my eyes open for one - Steve
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:06 am

Good Luck Steve , I actually sold one last week for 75 GBP's , which I think was very reasonably priced , have seen them for 100 GBP's ! .
90th
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steve.333



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 am

ouch!
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:55 am

Hiya steve.333. your very welcome. hey Gary those prices really surprised
me!. i'm sure many newer member's would be put off by those number's. Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:21 pm

Difficult. Archer's presence at Isandhlwana would need corroboration from another source ideally. The list of BBG kia is rigidly fixed and the contemporary list of survivors posted at Helpmekaar and published in the papers is constant.
Keep digging.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:41 am

Hi

Has anyone got a 'live' database or list of the number of survivors of Isandlwana (including the date they have been 'discovered')?

I know various people have compiled lists on the forum.

I am fascinated by the way the number of survivors (obviously the number hasn't changed but research has revealed more of them) has increased over the past 50 years or so - since books like TWOTS etc

If not would how easy would it be to set up a controlled (eg edit protected) list? - this is probably a question for ADMIN......

Cheers

Sime

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:42 am

Yes, I have. Published with each edition of England's Sons (next ed. to be the 9th).
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:06 pm

Not for any real reason.. but it's a very good documentary, worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4h6iZBvrkw

The full doc is an hour long.
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