Did Coghill Meet Melville, Before Entering The River.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I suspect most of those who claimed to have seen the two together did so just before they rode in to the river.

If you read accounts of battles, most eye-witnesses can recall seeing x and y but not necessarily when precisely and at what geographical point. In the unfamiliar country along which the flight occurred this will be especially the case. The only exceptions will be when something particular occurred which stood out in the memory or something was said which made an impression on the listener.
Bickley is a good example. Both Coghill and Melvill would be well-known to Bickley (so no fear of misidentification). Witnessing Coghill's report to the adjutant that the Colonel had been shot would also have stood out in Bickley's memory. Bickley SAW Coghill speak to Melvill and OVERHEARD the remark. It is undoubtedly true.
The others mentioned would all have known both officers and undoubtedly saw them - from memory I believe Brickhill and Foley also mention Coghill and/or Melvill in their accounts.
I'm sure as the two officers rode, sometimes they were together and sometimes not as they were mixed up in the melee. At the point where they entered the drift they were together (and undoubtedly with Higginson). Higginson knowingly put himself in line for criticism by saying he went off to find some horses - he might have done better to remain quiet - I suspect he didn't in case anyone had witnessed the event.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

I don't think we can say for certain, they entered the drift together. We know Coghill was on the other side of the river when he saw Melville struggling, and went back to help.

You also have to take into account. Smith's and Curling's statement.

Yes, that's broadly speaking what I meant by 'together' - close enough to be within reach of helping one another.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

It seems a bit of an odd statement in that, M & C made a pact to stick together, when you consider they were both officers, and men all around trying to escape. Would have made more sense to have made a pact with all the men in the vincinty. We know that Coghill left first, and was seen on the trail. We also know that Melvill was seen behind Coghil. Is it then not possible that someone had told Coghill that Melvill was behind with the colours forcing Coghill to either wait for him, thus when Melvill caught up, the conversation took place or did Coghill ride back to assist Melvill.

24th
The sort of precision you seek with regard to events during the flight is simply not possible given what was reported. Beyond that, all is speculation.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I expect that goes for Higginson's account?

Not necessarily but possibly in some areas. I've already given an opinion on Higginson; the need for cross-referencing for corroboration is self-evident.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Corroboration while on the trail and in the water, after that speculation. How many actually saw Melvill and Coghill's horses shot while in the water?

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

impi
My notes tell me that the accounts of Pte. Bickley, Curling, Smith-Dorrien, Pte. Williams, Higginson, and Foley mention meeting Melvill AND Coghill in flight. Why not check their accounts out for yourself if you're interested?
No other survivor's account mentions them.
One thing to bear in mind re veracity when reading any survivor's account is the fact that he could not guarantee that another survivor was not witnessing the same event and that therefore his account might be challenged. Lying or story-inflation post eventum, if proven to be the case, would be pretty pointless and reputation-damaging especially for an officer (witness Lieut. L. Young N.N.C.).

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

That what I said corroboration on the trail. I'm not doubting that! No need to check accounts.

Well, do as you wish, but as a general rule I always check the original accounts BEFORE I make any potentially earth-shaking comment. I can at least then be sure of not being shot down in flames.
Note that the flight extended to and beyond the river!

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

And what was this earth shaking comment, I supposedly made.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Not sure you did?

I'm not aware you've ever made one.
I was writing hypothetically...if you were to make one, so to speak.

Guest

Would a revolver back in 1879 have functioned after being in water? Black powder, not sure ammunition technology went a far a water-proofing. Perhaps Neil could help?

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Julian Whybra wrote:: Well, do as you wish, but as a general rule I always check the original accounts BEFORE I make any potentially earth-shaking comment. I can at least then be sure of not being shot down in flames.
Note that the flight extended to and beyond the river!

Perhaps in-directly aimed at me. Regarding the earthing Shaking comment! Suspect

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

littlehand wrote:: Would a revolver back in 1879 have functioned after being in water? Black powder, not sure ammunition technology went a far a water-proofing. Perhaps Neil could help?

Good Point LH.

LH
A good point, yes, but I recall Sparks, I think, firing his revolver after the river to keep his pursuers away. I'll check his and others' accounts.

impi
You have an incredible knack of getting the wrong end of the stick.
In your post you asked who else saw Melvill and Coghill in flight.
I gave you a list of who did and suggested you look up their accounts yourself.
You then said there was no need to check accounts.
I then said it was always wise to check written comments before making any pronouncements.
Nothing was 'aimed' at you. I was trying to be helpful.

LH
I just checked. It wasn't Sparks; it was Smith-Dorrien who, after swimming the river, kept his pursuers away by using his revolver.

Posts : 747 Join date : 2009-10-18

I was just, going to ask which "Sparks" source you quote from?

Mr. Greaves
I checked only the account in Clements, W. H., The Glamour and Tragedy of the Zulu War, (London, 1936), p. 63, not the 1929 one or the anecdote in Holt. I was looking specifically at his story after crossing the river.

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