WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
Another 'what if'! EmptyToday at 9:41 am by De Passey

» Regimental numbers
Another 'what if'! EmptyYesterday at 12:55 pm by Frank Allewell

» Lance Corporal Robert Eaton NMP
Another 'what if'! EmptyYesterday at 11:25 am by Frank Allewell

» Isandlwana, Last Stands
Another 'what if'! EmptyYesterday at 9:13 am by Julian Whybra

» Colour of Lord Chelsmford eyes
Another 'what if'! EmptyYesterday at 8:05 am by Simonsole

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
Another 'what if'! EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
Another 'what if'! EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

» Cpl John Lyons
Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:49 pm by Bill8183

» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am by John Young

» What happened next
Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 am by Springbok

» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
Another 'what if'! EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 9:38 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 2:41 pm by ADMIN

» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 11:49 am by SRB1965

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
Another 'what if'! EmptyThu Sep 03, 2020 4:05 pm by Frank Allewell

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Artillery
Another 'what if'! EmptyWed Sep 02, 2020 8:01 pm by Catiline63

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:46 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm by ADMIN

» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:02 pm by ADMIN

» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:52 pm by ADMIN

» Quarter-Master William London
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:32 pm by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:19 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 pm by ADMIN

» Sgt. John Philip Archbell NNC
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:43 pm by ADMIN

» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:27 pm by ADMIN

» Non-Combat Casualties in Colonial and Native Units
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
Another 'what if'! EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
Another 'what if'! EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm by 1879graves

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
Another 'what if'! EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 4:12 am by 90th

» England's Sons 9th edition
Another 'what if'! EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 pm by Herbie

» Strange tales from Isandlwana
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm by SRB1965

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
Another 'what if'! EmptySat Aug 22, 2020 5:48 pm by Visitor

» Militaria Sale
Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm by Frank Allewell

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:48 am by 90th

» Malicious website
Another 'what if'! EmptySun Aug 16, 2020 9:06 pm by ADMIN

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Black as Hell, Thick as Grass
Top posters
90th
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
littlehand
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
ADMIN
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
1879graves
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
rusteze
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
John
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
John Young
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
De Passey
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
90th
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
ADMIN
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
1879graves
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Kenny
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
SRB1965
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Simonsole
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Digger
Another 'what if'! Bar_leftAnother 'what if'! BarAnother 'what if'! Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Russell james william henry Mounted Prince Franklin Police gardner martini Woolfryes zulu harford drift melvill Isandlwana taylor spalding horse 24th Natal Durnford payne john George smith

 

 Another 'what if'!

Go down 
AuthorMessage
paul mercer



Posts : 2
Join date : 2018-12-02

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Dec 10, 2018 10:29 pm

Gentlemen,
This is my first post since joining so please bear with me if this question has been asked before.
I have read pretty well all the available books on the Zulu wars, but none seem to answer the following 'What If' questions, so here goes!
1) I have often wondered what would have been the result if Chelmsford had remained at Islandwana when the Zulus attacked, would the sheer weight of numbers overwhelmed his forces (they didn't appear to have Gatling guns then)?
2) If the Zulus had attacked him while he was away from the camp and then gone on to the camp could his entire force have been wiped out?
3) If Pullene had time to form a square with the ammo in the centre, could he have held the camp - or was the result a foregone conclusion?
and finally!
5) It was said that around 4000 Zulus were in the attack on Rorkes Drift, again, I have often wondered that if they had mounted a full scale attack using all the warriors surely they would have overwhelmed a 100 or so men even though they were behind barricades and armed with Martini -Henrys
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 55
Location : MELBOURNE

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! EmptyMon Dec 10, 2018 11:38 pm

Hi Paul
I will try to answer your questions but there are others on the forum with better knowledge
1/ That would mean Durnford would not have been there. I would say it depended on the disposition of the troops the battle was well over when the right horn entered through the saddle so that area must be covered or else it would of been a larger massacre.
2 / Having trouble understanding the second question. If the Zulu would of attack Chelmsford on his return to the camp then the Zulu would of used all those Martini Henrys on Chelmsford force remembering that he only had less than 70 rounds each seeing they used a certain number of rounds at Mangeni but could they have afford another two to three thousand dead, also the Zulu had all the reserve ammo at the camp to use.
3/ One thing many people seem to forget the Zulu had about 4000 old muzzle loaders which was only effective up to 100 yards so once the Zulu got within 100 yeards the battle would of favoured them strongly.
5/ you Forgot 4 What was required is something the break up the Zulu charge and biscuit boxs did the job at Rorkes Drift. One other thing the 4,000 Zulu arrived in peacmeal they were not all there when the battle started.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10136
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Another ' What If '    Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Dec 11, 2018 12:41 am

Hi Paul and Welcome
1/ I doubt if L.C remained had remained in camp the result would've been different . Yes no Gatling Guns at Isandlwana , I believe LC didn't want to be burdened with them , much the same thoughts as Custer ! . The Battle Of Nyezane on the same day , but earlier in the morning , saw the Naval Brigade use their Gatlings . One has to remember that the numbers of Imperial troops in No3 Column were lowest amount of all the Columns during the war , with the exception of No2 ( Durnford ) and No 5 ( Rowlands ) . After Chelmsford left the camp , there were about 700 Imperial troops left at Isandlwana , of which over 100 of these were Royal Artillery , Staff , Mtd Inf , AHC , R.E ...etc etc , that brings the Imperial infantry figure to under 600 , which isn't many to hold back 20,000 .
2/ The Zulu's only concern was destroying the camp , they saw and knew there were Imperial troops out and about at Mangeni , to answer your question , there's no doubt they could've taken out Chelmsford and his men , they ( Chelmsford and his men ) were strung out like Brown's Cows attempting to locate the Zulu Army . This always puzzled me as to why the Zulu Army never attacked the Columns on the march , with the exception being Nyezane ... and because the Zulu failed to co-ordinate that attack it failed , as it did at Kambula , when Wood sent Buller and his men out in an attempt to goad the right wing into attacking far earlier than it should've , Wood had many more imperial troops in his command , they had Lagaars and a Fort , from which to defend , and they did , although .. Wood later said '' it was a close run thing '' , which is why I believe Isandlwana would've fallen no matter what , as there were no defensive structures put in place there .
3/ The Square was seen as a tactic to combat European Cavalry , not an enemy on foot , which was the thinking of Chelmsford at that time , Chelmsford had prepared a booklet for Column commanders with his instructions on how to prepare for an attack in Zululand , this was done by Col Pearson at Nyezane on the morning of the 22nd , ( no Square ) . I don't know if you've been to Isandlwana , but the dead ground is a major problem , it drops away sharply and you don't realise how sharply ...until you are standing there amongst it , that was the main reason the Firing line was so farin front of the camp , it was to combat the dead ground , the zulu , if left unhindered , could move in very close to the camp , and launch a massed rush which would've overwhelmed a Square in quick order .
5/ Many of the zulus who crossed into Natal were more focused on looting and raiding properties than attacking RD . Rorke's Drift ...again not knowing if you've been there ? , part of it is situated on a rocky ledge about 6 foot high , plus the mealie bags atop that.. made it extremly difficult for the zulu's to get into the defences . The 100 men was more like 150 . Had all the zulus who crossed the river gone straight to RD , no doubt there would've been a second disaster , many Zulu's appeared on the hill Kwa siquindi opposite RD about 8am on the 23rd , these had a look and withdrew , quite possibly knowing the remnants of No 3 Column were coming back to RD , they thought it was time to leave , let's not forget they probably hadn't eaten or rested very much since they left Ulundi on the 18 or 19th , not sure of the day without looking it up . They had come a long way in hot weather , the 22nd was a very hot day in the 30's by all reports .
Hope this helps .
90th
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Dec 11, 2018 5:59 am

Paul
One thing that's often overlooked is the actual size of the defended area at RD. Its pretty much a tennis court. 4000 Zulus when attacking would be compressed as they got to the barricades forcing them into quite deep crowds. The number who actually go to the barricades at one time therefore would be relatively small so on the defence area of a single soldier its quite feasible that he was facing possibly three Zulu maximum. Those three would have been hemmed in by their companies and crushed from the back and sides potentially reducing their ability to wield a spear. To off set that I would assume that numbers would then have been held back to reduce the mayhem. This of course still had to be defended by the soldiers, at one point even down to using fists.
Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10136
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Another ' What If '    Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Dec 11, 2018 9:00 am

Agreed Frank , there was only a limited number that could attack at any one time. Salute
90th
Back to top Go down
barry

barry

Posts : 922
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Dec 11, 2018 11:41 am

Hi All,




….….and added to which there were defenders operating in the sniper role. They were responsible for much attrition in the rear eschelons of the enemy, by all accounts,.....  that out to about 400 metres from the barricades.  Much damage  was done by these skilled riflemen positioned in elevated places  ie the top of the mealie bag tower and those on the cookhouse roof.  Amongst these was  NMP Tpr H. Lugg.









regards,

barry
Back to top Go down
paul mercer



Posts : 2
Join date : 2018-12-02

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Dec 11, 2018 3:20 pm

Thanks for all you answers chaps, I can now equate all your points and revise my own opinions!
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! EmptyTue Dec 11, 2018 4:33 pm

There is another way of thinking about what might have transpired at Isandhlwana which I think is more realistic. The starting point should be, what do we know of British and Zulu intentions had the fateful decision in the early hours of 22nd to take half the force out of the camp not happened? It is perhaps something along these lines.

For the British, Isandhlwana was a temporary camp - there was no intention for the bulk of the column to remain there for very long at all (part of the reasoning for not erecting defences). Chelmsford intended to perform sweeps towards the western and southern hills to clear local opposition and take the column forward to the Mangeni. Sending Dartnell out was a preliminary part of that action and we know the intention was to bring Durnford up to do something similar. We know also that Chelmsford had repeatedly declined advice from Glyn and his staff to scout and patrol the northern range (Symon's complains endlessly about this), so it is reasonable to conclude that Chelmsford would have continued to ignore the north and the Zulu attack would not have been triggered.

For the Zulu army the plan seems to have been to attack on the 23rd and it can be argued that they would not have been discovered at all on the 22nd because Chelmsford was blind-sided. By the 23rd I believe Chelmsford would be starting the move towards Mangeni with the bulk of the column behind quite extensive sweeps of Durnford's and Dartnell's mounted men to the west and south.

The question then is would the Zulu army have attacked what would have been just a transit camp (rather like they did at RD) or would they have gone for Chelmsford's very vulnerable slow moving column?

I think it is too simplistic to imagine that things would just have been static at the Isandhlwana camp for three days.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Another 'what if'! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another 'what if'!   Another 'what if'! Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Another 'what if'!
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
Jump to: