Latest topics | » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Today at 9:36 am by Julian Whybra » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableYesterday at 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 » 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BARSun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash » A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra » Isandlwana papers he,d by the RE museum Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:06 am by 90th » An Irish V.C. conundrum?Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:51 am by Julian Whybra » William Moore / William Potter 24th RegimentThu Sep 26, 2024 3:04 pm by Dash » Stalybridge men in the 24thThu Sep 26, 2024 2:24 pm by Dash |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records | |
|
+31kopie ymob Chelmsfordthescapegoat Kenny Mr Greaves Mr M. Cooper rusteze 90th rayhun Sherman Saul David 1879 ADMIN sas1 Ulundi old historian2 Chard1879 24th Frank Allewell John bill cainan Ray63 impi littlehand kwajimu1879 Mr David Payne Julian Whybra gallon 1879graves tasker224 Dave SergioD 35 posters | |
Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorkes Drift roll of defenders | Yes | | 49% | [ 23 ] | No | | 4% | [ 2 ] | More research should have been done | | 45% | [ 21 ] | It was all a publicly stunt | | 0% | [ 0 ] | Doesn't really matter | | 2% | [ 1 ] |
| Total Votes : 47 | | Poll closed |
| Author | Message |
---|
SergioD
Posts : 401 Join date : 2012-03-27 Age : 62 Location : London/Herts
| Subject: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:35 pm | |
| 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records 2013-04-04 16:14:05.265 GMT
Jasper Copping April 4 (Telegraph) -- A soldier who fought at Rorke’s Drift but whose name was left off the 1879 battle’s roll of honour is to be included in official records after his family were able to prove he had been there. Private David Jenkins survived the battle, at which a force of just 150 British and colonial troops held off an attack on their isolated outpost by 4,000 Zulu warriors. However, when the official list of those who had fought there was drawn up, just days after the clash, his name was accidentally omitted. Curators at the National Army Museum, though, have now investigated his case and concluded that the solder, who served with the 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot, was present at the fighting, on the banks of the Buffalo River, in South Africa, and should have been included on the roll. They began their investigation after being contacted by Jenkins’ relatives, who recognised his image being used in a picture to promote a new exhibition at the museum. The pencil sketch, by Lady Butler, a celebrated Victorian war artist, is captioned simply “Jenkins” and for decades was assumed to depict another soldier Private James "Edmund" Jenkins, who was killed in the fighting. But Geoff Rees, 62, Jenkins’ great-grandson, contacted the west London museum to identify the man as his relative. He also provided other evidence, including a bible which the soldier – along with other survivors – had been given by the women of Durban. The family also had supporting evidence from the Brecon regimental museum, which was able to find references to Jenkins having fought at Rorke’s Drift. A spokesman for the National Army Museum said “When his great-grandson contacted us with irrefutable evidence proving David Jenkins’ presence at the battle and his identity in the museum’s sketch book, we set the record straight. Our curators have looked into it and we accept that he was there, and in future, we hope, all references will say that he was.” Lady Butler had been commissioned by Queen Victoria to commemorate the battle and her painting “The Defence of Rorke’s Drift” was exhibited in 1880. It was based on a series of sketches – including that of “Jenkins” – which she had made when she visited the survivors on their return to Portsmouth in October 1879 and was treated to a re-enactment of the fighting. The museum, which holds the sketch book, does not believe that Jenkins is actually featured in the painting itself. Mr Rees, from Swansea, said: “It’s nice that the history books have finally been corrected to recognise his role. “What I find most inspiring about the battle is that it was won by ‘ordinary’ men who outwitted and outfaced the Zulus and who fought so heroically for one another. How exposed must they have felt at that moment, how their blood must have run cold, yet they defended the outpost to a man over a nightmarish twelve hour period.” Jenkins was born in Defynnog, near Brecon, in 1846 and enlisted for the town’s 25th Brigade at the age of 28, being posted to South Africa in 1874. From 1882, he served with the South Wales Borderers, becoming Lance Corporal the following year. He was discharged in 1888 and settled in Swansea, where he became a store keeper at the city's docks. According to research by his family, Jenkins was responsible for saving the life of Major John Chard, the commanding officer at Rorke’s Drift, by ducking his head down to miss a bullet. In Zulu, the 1964 film depicting the battle, Chard is played by Stanley Baker. The reason for Jenkins’ omission from the roll is unclear, but the list was known to have been drawn up by an officer from a separate unit. The original roll of honour cannot be revised. But the museum is to ensure Jenkins’ name is added to any future lists of those who fought. The sketch of Jenkins was being used to promote an exhibition entitled “Britain’s Greatest Battles”. The museum has run an online poll asking people to vote what what they consider to have been the country's greatest battles and Rorke’s Drift, on January 22, 1879, came in the top five. Eleven Victoria Crosses were awarded to defenders of the small missionary outpost. Earlier the same day, the massed Zulu army of 20,000 warriors had massacred the 2,000 British and colonial forces 10 miles away at Isandlwana. On April 20, the museum is holding a day of debate at which historians will argue the case for each of the battles in the top five, before those attending pick what they believe was the greatest. The other four in contention are: Waterloo (1815), Aliwal (1846), D-Day (1944) and Imphal and Kohima (1945).
I guess this sort of thing explains why a 24th SAGS costs £1000 + if you had that medal you have just made about £25-28000
Cheers
Sergio |
| | | Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:41 pm | |
| |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:21 pm | |
| - Dave wrote:
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, it is good to see that this brave Welshman has been recognised at last due to some concrete evidence. It would be fascinating to see the sketch of Jenkins by Lady Buller, next to his photograph which his grandson, Mr Rees from Swansea, used to ID Pte Jenkins. |
| | | 1879graves
Posts : 3385 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:28 pm | |
| |
| | | gallon
Posts : 1 Join date : 2013-04-06
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:39 pm | |
| ZULU (The battle of Rorke's Drift) by Alan Gray
"Zulu's attacking, hundreds Sir" the sentry did report
"Hundreds?" said Bromhead glass to his eye
"Dear chap you missed off a nought !"
So swiftly they came where none stood before
out of the grass they appeared
Big giant fellows muscled and lithe
Banging hide shields with short handled spears
Transfixed by the sight fear in our eyes
the Sergeant cried out "fix bayonets"
"You're British" he said "let's see some pride"
and my heart danced a jig in my tunic
The order "fire !" was barked in our ears
Brave Zulu's fell like Martyrs
Our barrels glowed with bullets expelled
and the Boer said "that's for starters"
Words rang true relentless they came
engulfing the red with the brown
The blood of the brave was spilt on that day
like seeds on hallowed ground
Night brought respite exhausted we lay
nursing our wounds like sick dogs
Zulu's had gone quick as the came
drifting away like a fog
Morning came like a thief in the night
stealing our dreams as we slept
Brave were the men who stood for the fight
so few seemed so inept
For as the sun crept over the hills
and warmed us with his breath
Ten thousand Zulu we espied swathed in silhouette
Hearts they sank from our mouths to our boots
as we looked on with intrepid fear
When an old Zulu chief from afar waved his shield
we sensed that our ending was near
Then strange things occurred, did the Lord intervene
or was it a dream we implored
For the Zulu's turned from the front to the rear
leaving us lonely standing in awe
Up went a cheer gallant men wept
for the pure gift of life they received
"Bloody British" the old Boer muttered
It's heroes they've reprieved, it's heroes they've reprieved...
Hi, wrote this a few year ago. Hope you like it... |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:15 pm | |
| Well done Alan, welcome to the forum and, very nice work.
Have you written very much poetry, do you write mainly war poetry, or on a wide range of subjects? |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:20 am | |
| Re ‘The Forgotten Survivor of Rorke’s Drift’ (DT 6.4.13), Pte, Jenkins’s great-grandson is a trifle late in discovering his relative fought in the battle. Not only did Lady Butler know in 1880, when participants were sent to her to be sketched, but The Times (Oct 1879), the Regimental Record of Services, Jenkins’s own letter home (29.1.1879) which was published twice in local newspapers, and a Times report all record his presence there. He was also introduced to the King as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post & Herald of Wales, both July 1904). All this has been known to the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh for some years. A Roll compiled by Lieut. Chard’s Driver Robson left out at least thirteen men (possibly three more). Jenkins and the others may all be found in ‘England’s Sons’ available from the Museum (published 2004 - nine years ago!).
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:20 pm | |
| Julian, I am not sure Jenkins' gt grandson was late in "discovering" the evidence that his ancestor fought at RD. I think the struggle he faced was getting it accepted and having him included in any future rolls of RD survivors. As you say, there may be others, but if there is no descendant who cares to press the evidence and the point, they may never be included in the RD roll. |
| | | Mr David Payne
Posts : 75 Join date : 2010-09-06 Location : Tenterden
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:43 pm | |
| I am posting this on behalf of The Anglo Zulu War Historical Society as there are always two sides to any story
I think the recent press articles about discovering Private David Jenkins being a Rorke's Drift defender are a bit premature.(Various national newspapers 5th April).
I have been in regular contact with Mr Rees, Jenkins' relative, for about a year urgently searching for one shred of actual evidence to support his claim that this Private David Jenkins was anywhere near Rorke's Drift during the famous battle. Neither I, nor other reputable historians that I have contacted, who are well versed in this aspect of the history of Rorke's Drift, have yet been able to find any actual supporting evidence.
The forthcoming Anglo Zulu War Historical Society Journal, 1st June, investigates this more fully. Dr Adrian Greaves
|
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:52 pm | |
| David, are there not a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence as alluded to by JW in his post above? We all know there were mistakes and erroneous ommissions and inclusions on Chard's and the other RD rolls. From what I have read, unless what I have read is false or untrue, there seems to be a lot more certainty/ evidence to show that Jenkins was there than say someone, like, Adendorff for example. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:18 pm | |
| Tasker Jenkins is already accepted and he is already included in rolls. Bill Cainan and Martin Everett before him at the MRW both accepted the evidence. David Payne No disrespect but your 'well-versed reputable historians' (whoever they might be) might read the supporting evidence I cited previously. The Regimental Record of Services is enough of an indication by itself. |
| | | kwajimu1879
Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:38 pm | |
| Tasker, The Lady Butler sketch is viewable on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'Jimu |
| | | Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:44 pm | |
| Interesting... So apart from some authors agreeing Jenkins was at RD. what evidence is there to show this to be true. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:47 pm | |
| Dave Please look at and read the items listed on my post today at 12.20. |
| | | Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:55 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Tasker
Jenkins is already accepted and he is already included in rolls. Bill Cainan and Martin Everett before him at the MRW both accepted the evidence. David Payne No disrespect but your 'well-versed reputable historians' (whoever they might be) might read the supporting evidence I cited previously. The Regimental Record of Services is enough of an indication by itself. But where's the evidence? |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:18 pm | |
| Dave, as JW has suggested already, read back through the thread. His service papers for one are proof in their own right. If you want to see the service papers for your self, you can look up his service records either at the RRW museum in Brecon, or on various websites such as: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:21 pm | |
| - kwajimu1879 wrote:
- Tasker,
The Lady Butler sketch is viewable on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
'Jimu Thank you Jimu |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:22 pm | |
| Dave. "Pte David Jenkings" is covered in Kris Wheatley's Legacy series.
Volume 9 pages 31 - 43 Covers his career indepth.
Read that and you will be in no doubt of his where abouts on the 22nd/23rd Jan 1879. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:51 pm | |
| Thank you gents for clearing that up with Dave - I've been working away for a week and have had no internet access. Julian |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:16 pm | |
| |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:32 am | |
| When you compare Lady Buller's sketch of Jenkins to the man on the bottom left of the painting, it is clear that that the man on the bottom left is Jenkins. Taken in conjunction with the bible, it is right that he is added to the RD roll. Good work by Rees and Jenkins' family.
Is there any record of what if anything Jenkins said or claimed about his participation at RD, during his lifetime? (Or was he a man who didn'tt alk about it?) |
| | | Mr David Payne
Posts : 75 Join date : 2010-09-06 Location : Tenterden
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:13 pm | |
| Hi Folks
I have read all of the comments with great interest however I have the following to add
It was stated in the newspapers at the time Jenkin's unit returned home that ‘amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were “a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….'who had been to the rear with prisoners'. Jenkins wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location which tallies with the words ‘to the rear’. If he had been at Rorke’s Drift, how did he then get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly. I understand that there is a ledger at Brecon containing names of participants at Rorke’s Drift. One needs to know why it was compiled, and by whom, and further, who entered the name of David Jenkins and why. Curiously, and rather astonishingly, this ledger is not mentioned at all by Welsh historian and researcher Norman Holme, author of ‘The Noble 24th’, who, over many years, collated all known records of the 24th in Zululand. His research was conducted with the full support of the 24th Regimental Museum curator, Maj. Everett who made available the latest contents of the regimental archives and assisted Norman Holme ‘on virtually a daily basis’. Norman Holme makes no mention of Pte. David Jenkins, other than recording that he was present in Zululand at the time. Sadly we don't have any independent confirmation, or a convincing reason, for Pte David Jenkins being at Rorke’s Drift, Most of all, we don't have a clear, unequivocal claim from the man himself explaining his movements, or even claiming he was there.
If I can be satisfied that he was at RD I would be absolutely thrilled that he has received due recognition.
David |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:15 pm | |
| Well, that throws a spanner in the works, and all valid points. So was Jenkins at RD? - Quote :
- Jenkins wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location which tallies with the words ‘to the rear’. If he had been at Rorke’s Drift, how did he then get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly.
I understand that there is a ledger at Brecon containing names of participants at Rorke’s Drift. One needs to know why it was compiled, and by whom, and further, who entered the name of David Jenkins and why. Curiously, and rather astonishingly, this ledger is not mentioned at all by Welsh historian and researcher Norman Holme, author of ‘The Noble 24th’, who, over many years, collated all known records of the 24th in Zululand. His research was conducted with the full support of the 24th Regimental Museum curator, Maj. Everett who made available the latest contents of the regimental archives and assisted Norman Holme ‘on virtually a daily basis’. Norman Holme makes no mention of Pte. David Jenkins, other than recording that he was present in Zululand at the time. Sadly we don't have any independent confirmation, or a convincing reason, for Pte David Jenkins being at Rorke’s Drift, Most of all, we don't have a clear, unequivocal claim from the man himself explaining his movements, or even claiming he was there. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:51 pm | |
| Ledger? What ledger? Where has that come from? |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 56 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:47 pm | |
| Perhaps Bill can shed some light? |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:25 pm | |
| - Quote :
- Subject: Re: 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:20 am
Re ‘The Forgotten Survivor of Rorke’s Drift’ (DT 6.4.13), Pte, Jenkins’s great-grandson is a trifle late in discovering his relative fought in the battle. Not only did Lady Butler know in 1880, when participants were sent to her to be sketched, but The Times (Oct 1879), the Regimental Record of Services, Jenkins’s own letter home (29.1.1879) which was published twice in local newspapers, and a fellow soldier’s letter home all record his presence there. He was also introduced to the King as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post & Herald of Wales, both July 1904). All this has been known to the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh for some years. A Roll compiled by Lieut. Chard’s Driver Robson left out at least thirteen men (possibly three more). Jenkins and the others may all be found in ‘England’s Sons’ available from the Museum (published 2004 - nine years ago!). Julian, when you say, the Regimental knew about this years ago. Have you seen the evidence first hand?. Even if this is the case, its not really hard evidence. You say Jenkins is down in you book "Englands Sons" which suggest you were confident that he was at RD. What reference, did you use to establish this. As David as pointed out. - Quote :
- Jenkins wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location which tallies with the words ‘to the rear’. If he had been at Rorke’s Drift, how did he then get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly.
Was you aware of the letter inquestion, and how is it possible for him to get from RD to Pietermaritzburg in that time scale. |
| | | Ray63
Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:55 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Re ‘The Forgotten Survivor of Rorke’s Drift’ (DT 6.4.13), Pte, Jenkins’s great-grandson is a trifle late in discovering his relative fought in the battle. Not only did Lady Butler know in 1880, when participants were sent to her to be sketched, but The Times (Oct 1879), the Regimental Record of Services, Jenkins’s own letter home (29.1.1879) which was published twice in local newspapers, and a fellow soldier’s letter home all record his presence there. He was also introduced to the King as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post & Herald of Wales, both July 1904). All this has been known to the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh for some years. A Roll compiled by Lieut. Chard’s Driver Robson left out at least thirteen men (possibly three more). Jenkins and the others may all be found in ‘England’s Sons’ available from the Museum (published 2004 - nine years ago!).
Julian just out of interest, who were these fellow Soldiers who confirm Jenkins presence? |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:32 pm | |
| I am still yet to be fully convinced either way, but I am leaning towards the fact he was there.
The letter from Pietermaritzburg is a minor point and is leading some to jump to conclusions; Jenkins may well have written this letter on top of a burnt roof timber on the hospital at RD on the 26th, but due to the absence of a red pillar box at the mission station, this and the many other letters written, would have been transported to PMB for franking and mailing, arriving back in Britain a month or two later.
I think what would clinch it for me, would be at least one recorded story or claim,from Jenkins himself, that he was present during the RD battle. If on the other hand, this man had been trying to fabricate his involvement in the battle, would he not have written and said loads of BS about it? If this was the case, there should be hundreds of letters, notes from the man himself?
I can't see that he would have wanted to, or been allowed to blag his way into the bible presentation, or to sit in front of Lady Buller to have himself portraited, or been allowed to do this by fellow battle veterans, if he had not been there. On the balance of probablities, it is likely he was there. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:47 pm | |
| Re 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins
In a letter home (in Welsh) dated 28th January 1879 published in The Merthyr Express, 22nd March 1879 and in Welsh in Y Gwladgarwr, 28th March 1879 this 1/24th G coy soldier claimed that he was “one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies” from Isandhlwana. There is no evidence to support that he was at Isandhlwana – G coy was stationed at Helpmekaar at the time - and the letter may refer simply to the 1/24th men at the Drift having escaped the massacre at the camp by dint of being at the Drift. The letter does indicate his possible presence at Rorke’s Drift. The Times (October 1879), on his return home, records his presence there and in the escort, he was in possession of a Rorke’s Drift Ladies’ Testimonial Fund Bible (inscribed on the flyleaf), and he is also recorded in the 1/24th Record of Services as having been present at the Drift. Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to the Times report. The bible and Record are all in the RRW Museum. En route back to the Column Roy was admitted to hospital at Rorke’s Drift. Lady Butler sketched (and named) Jenkins in 1880 as a study for her painting of the defence. He was also introduced to King Edward VII as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post, 20th July 1904; Herald of Wales, 23rd July 1904). His inclusion among the defenders solves the riddle of others having seen ‘Jenkins’ both in the hospital and on the wall (confusing this man with 25B/841 Pte. Jas. Jenkins, kia Rorke’s Drift).
I have seen all the information above myself over an extended period.
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | bill cainan
Posts : 225 Join date : 2011-09-19
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:51 pm | |
| Hi all
The stance of the Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh is exactly as Julian has stated. This was all resolved many years ago. It is not "new" news as the flurry of recent newspaper articles has intimated.
Bill |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:12 pm | |
| Bill Thank you.
Tasker and others His letter is actually dated 28th not 26th. This was due to an earlier misprint, endlessly reproduced.
All I would seriously like to know where David Payne has got this reference to a 'ledger' of participants' names being at the RWMuseum. No such source is recorded anywhere as Bill will confirm. This sort of spanner-in-the-works mythology never fails to rear its ugly head and, like the misprinted date mentioned above, takes enormous effort to negate. David, wherever you got this reference from, please make every effort to inform the source that it does not exist and never has. |
| | | Mr David Payne
Posts : 75 Join date : 2010-09-06 Location : Tenterden
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:36 pm | |
| Hi All
The AZWHS have been having correspondence with Martin Everett on this very matter and Martin refers to the following item..
Battalion Digest of Service 1/24th - David Jenkins listed [ledger held at Brecon museum].
Does anyone have a copy of the relevant pages so that we can see what is in the 'ledger'
I am only trying to get to the bottom of this and establish the facts with evidence.
Regards
David |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:44 pm | |
| This 'ledger' is the Record of Services I referred to. Problem solved. I have seen it. i do not have a copy. E-mail Bill for a scan. |
| | | Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:04 pm | |
| So who and when, added him to the roll. Julian. Impi wrote - Quote :
- Englands Sons" which suggest you were confident that he was at RD. What reference, did you use to establish this
Not sure if you missed this. No doubt you would have used primary sources to substantiate his presence? |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:49 pm | |
| Julian, you mention that "Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a letter written by Col. Sergt. Wm. Edwards." Given that these members of the 1/24th were present at RD and are on the roll, there is now no reason to think that Jenkins was not at RD either with his colleagues who were sent back with the prisoners. Thanks for the information. Have you seen CS Edwards' letter with your own 2 eyes Julian? If so, that is good enough for me. 100% convinced |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 pm | |
| The second Pte Jenkins on the Chard Roll
Even on the Chard RD roll, in addition to J. Jenkins who was killed, Chard records a second Jenkins on his roll. Chard erroneously recorded a 1083 M. Jenkins on his roll of survivors, but 1083 M. Jenkins was killed at iSandlwana. Apart from the assumption that Chard made a "mistake" on his roll by recording 2 Jenkins' one killed, one survivor, it would seem that Chard was probably correct after all - there WAS indeed a survivor of the RD battle by the name of Pte Jenkins. OK, he mis-identified which particular Pte Jenkins this survivor was, but it is a better explanation . |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: The second Pte Jenkins on Chard's Rorke's Drift Roll Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:00 pm | |
| Is it now accepted that when Chard erroneously recorded the presence of 1083 Pte M. Jenkins (kia iSandlwana) on his roll of RD survivors, in addition to 841 Pte J. Jenkins, killed, that the survivng Pte Jenkins to whom Chard was referring must have in fact been 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins? See original copy of Chard's RD roll: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by tasker224 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:30 pm | |
| I can only see one "James Jenkins" on this roll. And he was KIA. Roll taken from the RDVC.
"The Roll of those present at Rorke's Drift 22/23 January, 1879
This Roll is compiled from research undertaken by Julian Whybra and Norman Holme and is largely based on the Chard and Bourne Rolls. Biographical notes on the soldiers of the 24th Foot who were present at Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift 22/23 January 1879 are contained in both 'The Roll Call for Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift' by Julian Whybra, published by Roberts Medals Publications and 'The Noble 24th' by Norman Holme, published in 1999 and obtainable from the South Wales Borderers' Museum, Brecon.
General's Staff
Maybin, G.W. Colour-Sergeant.
Royal Artillery N Battery 5th Brigade
Cantwell, John. Gunner 2076, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal Evans, Abraham. Gunner 1643 Howard, Arthur. Gunner 2077 Lewis, Thomas. Bombardier. 458
Royal Engineers 5th Company
Chard, John Rouse Merriott, Lieutenant, awarded Victoria Cross Robson, Charles John, Driver. 12046 (Chard's Batman)
2nd Battalion, 3rd (East Kent) Regiment of Foot (The Buffs)
Milne, Frederick. Sergeant. 2260
1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot
Beckett, William. Private. 25B/135, died of wounds 23 January 1879 Desmond, Patrick. Private. 25B/568 Horrigan, William. Private. 1-24/1861, killed in action 22 January 1879 Jenkins, James. Private. 25B/841, killed in action 22 January 1879 Nicholas, Edward. Private. 25B/625, killed in action 22 January 1879 Payton, Thomas. Private. 25B/372 Roy, William. Private. 1-24/1542, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal Turner, Henry. Private. 25B/l04 Waters, John. Private. 1-24/447 Wilson, Edward. Sergeant. 25B/56
2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire)
Adams, Robert. Private. 25B/987 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Allen, William Wilson. Corporal. 2-24/1240, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross Ashton, James. Private. 2-24/913, B Company Barry, Thomas. Private. 25B/1381, B Company Bennett, William Private. 25B/918, B Company Bessell, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l287, B Company Bly, John. Private. 2-24/2427, B Company Bourne, Frank. Colour-Sergeant. 2-24/2459, B Company, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal Bromhead, Gonville. Lieutenant, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross Bromwich, Joseph. Private. 25B/1524, B Company Buckley, Thomas. Private. 25B/1184, B Company Burke, Thomas. Private. 25B/1220, B Company Bushe, James. Private. 2-24/2350, B Company Camp, William Henry. Private. 25B/1181, B Company Chester, Thomas. Private. 25B/1241, B Company Chick, James. Private. 25B/1335 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Clayton, Thomas. Private. 25B/755, B Company Cole, Robert. Private. 25B/1459, F Company Cole, Thomas. Private. 25B/801 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Collins, Thomas. Private.25B/1396, B Company Connolly, John. Private. 25B/906, C Company Connors, Anthony. Private. 2-24/2310, B Company Connors, Timothy. Private. 2-24/1323, B Company Cooper, William. Private. 2-24/2453, F Company Davies, George. Private. 25B/470, B Company Davis, William Henry. Private. 25B/1363, B Company Daw, Thomas. Private. 25B/1178, B Company Deacon, George. Private. 25B/1467, B Company, alias George D Power Deane, Michael. Private. 25B/1357, B Company Dick, James. Private. 2-24/1697, B Company Dicks, William. Private. 2-24/1634, B Company Driscoll, Thomas. Private. 25B/971, B Company Dunbar, James. Private. 25B/1421, B Company Edwards, George. Private. 25B/922, B Company, alias George Edward Orchard Evans, Frederick. Private. 25B/953, H Company Fagan, John. Private. 25B/969 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 French, George. Corporal. 2-24/582, B Company Galgey, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/1713, D Company Gallagher, Henry. Sergeant. 25B/81, B Company Gee, Edward. Private. 2-24/2429, B Company Hagan, James. Private. 25B/978, B Company Halley, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l282, B Company Harris, John. Private. 25B/1062, B Company Hayden, Garret. Private. 2-24/1769 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Hayes, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/2067, B Company Hitch, Frederick. Private. 25B/1362, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross Hook, Alfred Henry. Private. 25B/1373, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross Jobbins, John. Private. 25B/1061, B Company Jones, Evan. Private. 25B/1428, B Company, alias Patrick Cosgrove Jones, John. Private. 25B/1179, B Company Jones, John. Private. 25B/970, B Company Jones, Robert. Private. 258/716, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross Jones, William. Private. 2-24/593, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross Judge, Peter. Private. 2-24/2437, B Company Kears, Patrick. Private. 25B/972, B Company Keefe, James. Drummer 2-24/2381, B Company Key, John. Corporal. 2-24/2389, B Company Kiley, Michael. Private. 25B/1386, B Company Lewis, David. Private. 25B/963, B Company, alias James Owen Lines, Henry. Private. 2-24/1528, B Company Lloyd, David. Private. 25B/1409, B Company Lockhart, Thomas. Private. 25B/1176, B Company Lodge, Joshua. Private. 25B/1304, B Company Lynch, Thomas Michael. Private. 25B/942, B Company Lyons, John. Corporal. 25B/1112, B Company Lyons. John. Private. 2-24/1441, A Company Manley, John. Private. 2-24/1731, A Company Marshall, James. Private. 25B/964, B Company Martin, Henry. Private. 25B/756, B Company Mason, Charles. Private. 25B/1284, B Company Maxfield, Robert. Sergeant. 25B/623 G Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Meehan, John. Drummer 2-24/2383, A Company Minehan, Michael. Private. 2-24/1527, B Company Moffatt, Thomas. Private. 25B/968, B Company Morris, Augustus. Private. 25B/1342, B Company Morris, Frederick. Private. 25B/525, B Company Morrison, Thomas. Private. 25B/1371, B Company Murphy, John. Private. 25B/662, B Company Neville, William. Private. 25B/1279, B Company Norris, Robert. Private. 25B/1257, B Company Osborne, William. Private. 25B/1480, B Company Parry, Samuel. Private. 25B/1399, B Company Partridge, William. Private. 25B/1410, G Company Pitt, Samuel. Private. 25B/1186, B Company Robinson, Edward. Private. 25B/1286, B Company Ruck, James. Private. 25B/1065, B Company Savage, Edward. Private. 25B/1185, B Company Saxty, Alfred. Corporal. 25B/849, B Company Scanlon, John. Private. 25B/1051 A Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Sears, Arthur. Private. 2-24/2404, A Company Shearman, George. Private. 2-24/1618, B Company Shergold, John. Private. 2-24/914, B Company Smith, George. Sergeant. 2-24/1387, B Company Smith, John. Private. 25B/1005, B Company Stevens ,Thomas. Private. 25B/777, B Company Tasker, William. Private. 2-24/1812, B Company Taylor, Frederick. Private. 25B/973, B Company Taylor, James. Lance-Sgt. 25B/82, E Company Taylor, Thomas Edward. Private. 25B/889, B Company Thomas, John. Private. 25B/1280, B Company, alias Peter Sawyer Thompson, John. Private. 25B/1394, B Company Tobin, Michael. Private. 25B/879, B Company Tobin, Patrick. Private. 25B/641, B Company Todd, William John. Private. 25B/1281, B Company Tongue, Robert. Private. 25B/1315, B Company Wall, John. Private. 25B/1497, B Company Whetton, Alfred. Private. 2-24/977, B Company Wilcox, William. Private. 25B/1187, B Company Williams, John. Private. 25B/1395, B Company, awarded Victoria Cross, alias John Fielding Williams, John. Private. 25B/934, E Company Williams, Joseph. Private. 25B/1398 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 Williams, Thomas. Lance-Sergeant. 25B/1328, died of wounds 23 January 1879 Windridge, Joseph. Sergeant. 2-24/735, B Company Woods, Caleb. Private. 25B/1316, B Company
90th Light Infantry
Graham, James. Corporal. 1123, alias Daniel Sheehan
Army Service Corps
Attwood, Francis. Second Corporal. 24692, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal
Army Commissariat and Transport Department
Byrne, Louis Alexander. Acting Storekeeper, (civilian attachment), killed in action 22 January 1879 Dalton, James Langley. Acting Assistant Commissary, awarded Victoria Cross Dunne, Walter Alphonsus. Assistant. Commissary
Army Medical Department and Army Hospital Corps
Reynolds, James Henry. Surgeon. BA MB ChB, awarded Victoria Cross Pearse, Mr., Surg. Reynolds's servant Ludding, Thomas. Private. McMahon, Michael. Private. 3359, awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal Miller, Robert. Corporal.
1st Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent
Adendorff, James. Lieutenant Mayer, Jessy H. Corporal. A native of Mkungo's tribe, killed in action 22 January 1879
2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent
Anderson, Michael. Corporal. , killed whilst deserting 22 January 1879 Doughty, William. Corporal. Scammell, Carl. Corporal. Schiess, Ferdnand Christian. Corporal., awarded Victoria Cross Wilson, John. Corporal
Natal Mounted Police
Green, Robert S. Trooper. Hunter, Sydney H. Trooper., killed in action 22 January 1879 Lugg, Henry. Trooper.
Acting Chaplain to the Volunteers
Smith, George. The Reverend The Rev Smith's native servant Daniels, Mr
Not included in these figures are those who did not remain to assist in the defence viz. Stevenson's Natal Native Contingent detachment, Henderson's fugitive Natal Native Horse from Isandhlwana, Otto Witt and his native companion, Lieutenant Thomas Purvis 1st Battalion, 3rd Regiment, Natal Native Contingent - a hospital patient - who accompanied Witt to safety, Chard's native voodooper, Chard's native waggon driver who hid In a cave on the Oscarberg throughout the attack, and all those fugitives from Isandhlwana who stopped to give a warning and rode on. Of all the latter only Adendorff remained to assist in the defence and is thus the only man to have fought in both the Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift actions.
I may have missed the other Jenkins, happy to be corrected.
So the question still remains. " Who Added Jenkins to the Roll Call"
|
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:37 pm | |
| - Quote :
- Is it now accepted that when Chard erroneously recorded the presence of 1083 Pte M. Jenkins (kia iSandlwana) on his roll of RD survivors,
There is no "M Jenkins" recorded on Chards Roll |
| | | kwajimu1879
Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:49 pm | |
| Impi,
I would hazard a guess and say that the roll of Defenders on RDVC hasn't been updated for a while.
For example we now know what Mr. Daniells' initial was...
'Jimu |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:08 pm | |
| Thanks Jim. Do you know who up dates it. |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:34 pm | |
| Try looking at Chard's original roll, not the one that historians have corrected. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]The two Jenkins' are numbers 11 and 17 on Chard's roll. Number 11 is the second surviving Jenkins to which the title of this thread refers. (1083 Jenkins is Pte Matthew Jenkins who was in fact killed at iSandlwana) |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:39 pm | |
| |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:48 pm | |
| I read it as being Major Martin Everett who added Jenkins to the roll. Personaly I don't think there are a primary sources available to substaiate that David Jenkins was at Isandlwana or Rorkes Drift. The link above shows a sketch of a soldier, recognised as being David Jenkins. When was that sketch made. To me he looks like every other soldier that took part in the Zulu War. PS I have highlighted the section regarding the ledger spoke of by David Payne, now confirmed in writing by Major Everett. - Quote :
- ""The letter mentions the deaths of Sergeant Instructor of Musketry George Chambers who married Elizabeth, daughter of Isaac Lewis of Brecon, in January 1877 and her brother Gunner Thomas Lewis of Royal Artillery, who was involved in the fighting at Rorke’s Drift which took place some 12 hours after the disaster at Isandlwana. George Chambers’s name is remembered to this day on his father-in-law’s headstone in Brecon Cemetery and in the Regimental Museum where a coalport mug given to George and Elizabeth as a wedding present is on display.
David Jenkin’s letter suggests that he was one of the fortunate survivors of Isandlwana. However, only 10 men out of nearly 600 men of the regiment escaped and their handwritten accounts prepared, but not used, in the subsequent Court of Enquiry, are held in the regimental archives. There is no report from 295 Pte. David Jenkins of Defynnog. Furthermore, we know that David Jenkins was in G (Rainforth’s) Company 1/24th which was held in reserve at stores depot at Helpmekaar, some 20 miles from Isandlwana. The actual whereabouts of David Jenkins during the period on 22/23 January 1879 was not clear.
After 127 years, Mrs Gittoes was able to solve the mystery with tangible evidence – a Rorke’s Drift Testimonial Bible presented to each of the gallant defenders by the ladies of Durban. The name of the soldier is inscribed in the flyleaf of each bible. This bible containing David Jenkins’s name was identical to others held by the Regimental Museum; there was no doubt over its authenticity.
We knew of the possibility of two soldiers named “Jenkins” from 1/24th being at Rorke’s Drift and the various rolls were not able to shed light on the matter. A soldier named 841 Pte. James Jenkins was a patient at Rorke’s Drift but had been killed by the Zulus as they plundered through the hospital building and his name appears on the memorial at Rorke’s Drift; Colour Sergeant Bourne, the redoubtable senior NCO, at Rorke’s Drift, mentions 1083 Pte. M Jenkins but he was killed at Isandlwana. This prompted a search through the Regimental Archives and we were able to find a reference to Pte. David Jenkins 1/24th being at Rorke’s Drift in the handwritten ledger containing the records of the 1st Battalion. So with some confidence, we were able to add David Jenkins’s name to the roll of Rorke’s Drift defenders. Interestingly, in his letter David had quite naturally concentrated on telling his family of his lucky survival from Isandlwana when many local men had been killed – Rorke’s Drift on the other hand was not yet news as the announcement of the award of Victoria Crosses to the eleven defenders was published much later"
Martin Everett Curator of The Royal Regiment of Wales Museum, The Watton, Brecon. Write's
Source: Hanes News Letter."
|
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:51 pm | |
| Ok so where is "Pte James Jenkins" KIA RD. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:02 am | |
| Dave I've forgotten when exactly it was accepted that Jenkins was at RD - some time ago - 2002 or 2003 - that's why the sudden newspaper and belated family fuss all seems a bit late. All a bit, been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt! Tasker Yes, I have seen the Times report with my own eyes. So has Bill, so has Martin. For me it's a clincher because it provides independent corroboration that Jenkins was with the prisoner guard party that returned from Isandhlwana. Impi On the official Roll there WERE two Jenkins - the second one is usually excluded because it was thought to refer accidentally to the Pte. Jenkins kia at Isandhlwana. All Can we please stop calling the Records of Service, the 'ledger', as this will cause endless confusion if referred to in subsequent posts, other threads, etc. It is NOT a list of participants at RD as someone has stated; it contains records of service personnel in the 24th.
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:40 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
On the official Roll there WERE two Jenkins - the second one is usually excluded because it was thought to refer accidentally to the Pte. Jenkins kia at Isandhlwana.
A lesson here perhaps for all historians. DON'T TAMPER WITH THE PRIMARY SOURCES. Chard was there! Chard probably spoke to the soldiers who had survived the battle of Rorkes Drift, on asking the name of one of the 1/24th party, he was told "Private Jenkins" . Chard wrote down the name. He heard what he heard. Subsequently, the wrong Pte Jenkins of the 24th was noted on the roll, yes Chard made a mistake here, but not an unreasonable or inexplicale one. I wonder if 1083 Watkin Jenkins and 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins himself were related in any way, brothers perhaps? They were only 2 years apart in age and both enlisted at Brecon. It is not inconceivable that Sgt Edward Wilson, maybe, if he knew the two brothers, would easily mistake one for the other. When Chard asked him to clarify the first name and number of the Pte Jenkins in his party, that he named the wrong "Private Jenkins." |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:47 am | |
| - impi wrote:
- Ok so where is "Pte James Jenkins" KIA RD.
Really? The two Jenkins' are numbers 11 and 17 on Chard's roll. Here is a photo of Chard's roll: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Number 17. It is on the roll where it says: 841 Pte Jenkins (KILLED). The second Pte Jenkins is number 11 on the roll where it is written: 1083 Pte Jenkins. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4167 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:48 am | |
| Tasker Remember that it may well have been Cantwell who compiled the list, not Chard himself, so even more room for errors to creep in, and there are plenty of those in the 'Chard' Roll. And don't be too harsh on 'historians', the regtl. no. was given for the Jenkins who was kia Isandhlwana, so, that his inclusion was an error was a natural assumption to make. Nevertheless, you ARE right, the 'Chard' Roll compiler was aware that there were TWO men called Jenkins 1/24th at RD on 22-23rd Jany. |
| | | tasker224
Posts : 2101 Join date : 2010-07-30 Age : 57 Location : North London
| Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:57 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Tasker
Remember that it may well have been Cantwell who compiled the list, not Chard himself, so even more room for errors to creep in, and there are plenty of those in the 'Chard' Roll. And don't be too harsh on 'historians', the regtl. no. was given for the Jenkins who was kia Isandhlwana, so, that his inclusion was an error was a natural assumption to make. Nevertheless, you ARE right, the 'Chard' Roll compiler was aware that there were TWO men called Jenkins 1/24th at RD on 22-23rd Jany. Hi Julian I wasn't trying to be harsh on historians, you all do a great job! Your hours, decades of painstaking research certainly make the life of us keen amateurs a whole lot easier, doing the hard yards for us! In retrospect however, it does seem odd - and I realise it is always easy to say with the benefit of hindsight - that no one questioned or gave much thought as to WHY 1083 Pte Jenkins' name was erroneously included on the Chard roll - and Bourne's for that matter, other than to assume it was just some scatter-brained inclusion error from a not very bright, mediocre officer of the RE, until Rees, David Jenkins' gt gt grandson came along and picked up the baton. Chard was there. I understand Chard didn't finalise the official roll, but his list of men present, must have been based on his first hand jottings of who was there. My old training section cpl always used to warn, "when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME." I know he didn't invent the term, but as a young man, it made an impression on me! Tasker |
| | | | Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |