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WeekendWarrior

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 3:20 pm

A Capt. Davey is mentioned by both QM Dugald MacPhail and Trooper Barker, NC.

Barker: "About an hour after this we, the mounted men, were ordered to saddle up and take despatches and post to Rorke’s Drift, no news having been heard from there. The despatches were entrusted to Tarboton and myself. About five miles from Helpmakaar we met the General and staff, when we heard for the first time of the safe arrival of the General’s column at Rorke’s Drift and of the gallant defence of that post.
We were gladly welcomed by Major Dartnell and the late Captain Davey, but the General was very gruff and short with us as we did not get out the post and letters quick enough for him, Major Dartnell himself assisting us. We were then sent on with the post to Rorke’s Drift, and rejoined our regiment just as it was starting from there."

MacPhail: "When I got to Isandhlwana Captain Davey who used to be Drill Instructor for the Volunteers, took me up to the General, Lord Chelmsford, that night, because Chelmsford was preparing to go away early the next morning."

Anyone know who this guy is?
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 3:36 pm

This is what i got from the National Archives ,
COLONIAL SECRETARY, CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. TELEGRAMS ABOUT EXTRA PAY FOR
CAPTAIN DAVEY, NATAL MOUNTED POLICE FOR LABOUR ENTAILED ON HIM IN
PAYING PRIZE MONEY TO BAKER'S AND WILLONGHBY'S HORSE ON BEHALF OF
CAPE GOVERNMENT.
STARTING 1882
but I cant find his name any where else. Certainly not as a survivor and Barker mentions the 'Late Captain Davey' in the same sentence a Dartnell.
There is a further mention of him being sent of to find Chelmsford by Russell. along with Walsh.
IK has him as a lieutenant not a Captain.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 3:41 pm

The question arrises then IF he was out with Russell, possibly as a mounted volunteer when did he get killed? Could he have been in Gardners party?
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WeekendWarrior

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 3:44 pm

I think the implication is he went out with the Flying Column the morning of the 22nd. I don't see any evidence for his participation in the Battle of Isandlwana, or being attached to Gardner's party.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 3:54 pm

But the day after Barker has him as "the late'?
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WeekendWarrior

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 4:01 pm

Well this is the Barker account from Stalker, quite a few years after the events of 1879. To me the implication is Davey is deceased at the time of writing, decades later.
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 4:31 pm

Capt. N. E. Davey, Lieut. W. Royston and Capt. T. Shepstone were Natal Carbineers and out with Chelmsford on the morning of the 22nd January.  
59 Carbineers entered Zululand (Stalker, pp. 85-6); 2 officers and 20 men were kia Isandhlwana and 7 escaped; 3 officers and 27 men were on the Mangeni Reconnaissance. Davey is mentioned in Russell's report as being the officer in charge of one of the two parties sent with a report to Chelmsford (Walsh commanded the other).
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 5:08 pm

Hi Julian. I have 59 men excluding Davey, that is if we assume Matterson was invalided before iSandlwana. If not then 60 excluding Davey.
Officers mentioned are Shepstone. Royston and Scott. Ive been trying to find a mention of Davey joining after the regiment was mustered but nothing in Stalker, Im assuming (Dangerous I Know) that is the case for him not being mentioned in Stalker.
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 9:27 pm

The Narrative states that he was the Adjutant of Volunteers.
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90th

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Capt Davey    Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 2:05 am

Hi Frank
I'm with you... I can't find Davey mentioned anywhere , didn't see him on the list in Stalker on page 85 , I have a typed copy of the Symon's Diary which runs to 78 pages in A4 , the only names mentioned regarding Officers while out with LC are Royston , Shepstone & Scott , these are also the only 3 mentioned in Stalker on page 85 , surely if Davey was out with the Cards with LC he'd be mentioned ? , I've seen Davey mentioned over the years , but thought he was possibly part of Hamilton Browne's force ? . Wasn't he one of the 3 , 4 , or 5 men sent off to find LC as the camp was under attack ??? .
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 4:55 am

Ive got  him mentioned by McPhail:    "When I got to Isandhlwana Captain Davey who used to be Drill Instructor for the Volunteers, took me up to the General,"
and by Barker: "We were gladly welcomed by Major Dartnell and the late Captain Davey, "
Russell has him as being sent of to find Chelmsford along with Walsh.
So he does actually exist.
Gary as you say hes not mentioned on 85-86. and when the Carbineers eventually were led into Pietermaritzburg in July it was by Royston, a Lieutenant.
The mans a mystery, not for the first time a man has been missed by history, Edmund Skottawe was the same.
Just to complicate the issue Russell has him as Lieutenant, McPhail and Barker as Captain.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 5:25 am

These are the two records from the National Archives:Document 1 of 3
DEPOT NAB
SR/SN 000/00
SOURCE CSO
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 858
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 1882/2024
PART 1
DESCRIPTION COLONIAL SECRETARY, CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. TELEGRAMS ABOUT EXTRA PAY FOR
CAPTAIN DAVEY, NATAL MOUNTED POLICE FOR LABOUR ENTAILED ON HIM IN
PAYING PRIZE MONEY TO BAKER'S AND WILLONGHBY'S HORSE ON BEHALF OF
CAPE GOVERNMENT.
STARTING 1882
ENDING 1882
REMARKS T1882/423, V1882/639, VC1882/4, CSO1882/1789, CSO1882/1878.
Document 2 of 3
DEPOT NAB
SOURCE CSO
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 908
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 1883/1341
PART 1
DESCRIPTION DISTRIBUTION OF PRIZE MONEY TO CAPE COLONIAL FORCES BY CAPTAIN DAVEY
ADJUTANT, VOLUNTEERS.
STARTING 1883
ENDING 1883
REMARKS V1883/433. PLACED WITH CSO1883/1929.

Document 3 of 3
DEPOT VAB
SOURCE CO
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 92
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 3287/02
PART 1
DESCRIPTION CROSS COUNTRY TELEGRAPH LINES IN ORANGE RIVER COLONY: MAINTENANCE BY
RAILWAY DEPARTMENT: CAPTAIN DAVEY'S PROPOSALS FORWARDED.
STARTING 19020000
ENDING 19020000
REMARKS 1. LAST PREVIOUS PAPER 2784/02 2. NEXT SUBSEQUENT PAPER 2850/03
3720/03.

So in terms of the National Archives he wasnt with the Carbineers but rather the Natal Mounted Police.

Ive checked the 'NONQUAI' Police enrolment rolls fro 1874 through to 1890 and he isnt listed as being a member.
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aussie inkosi

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 7:52 am

Hi Frank and Gary

I was going through George MacLeroy letters to his sister and Capt Davey is mentioned twice the first occasion he gives him the nick name the Beast.
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90th

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Capt Davey    Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 7:56 am

Excellent Inky .
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 8:26 am

Morning Australia.
That probably came from his time as a Drill Instructor. My old drill instructor was better described with his absence of a parent. Very Happy
Still searching
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aussie inkosi

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 8:39 am

Morning South Africa

Yes your correct Frank the second occasion he is mentioned as a drill instructor
"We had three hour's mounted parade yesterday and if Davy[sic] didn't give it us to his hearts content, I’m a Dutchman
made us trot in troops, (i.e. 24 men in a row in each troop) right wheel, left wheel, forward, backward all over the country for¾ of an hour without halting; after that we had to go through a lot of complicated movements such as "Advance in oblique eschelon of troops to the right and line to the left about, or rear on the rear t roop".
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 9:22 am

im starting to lean towards the idea that he was with one of the irregular groups and brought in as an 'adviser' or such like.
The search continues.
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 12:40 pm

Frank
'Forgotten Heroes' lists Davey as the only officer under the 'Natal Volunteer Force' - whatever that is.
I'm starting to think Davey was someone with a status akin to Capt. George Shepstone - Political Officer on the Staff of No. 2 Column, but with no specific enrolment in any colonial unit.
Perhaps Davey was similarly on Dartnell's 'staff' as Adjutant of Volunteers, again without specific membership of a unit.
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peter@zuluwars




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 1:28 pm

Subject: Captain Davey.

Pages 145 & 147 Zulu Victory show:

'Lieutenant Davey of the NNC ......'

and

'Meanwhile Davey had arrived at Isandlwana, delivering Dartnell's earlier request for clarification

of his orders.'


Is this the Davey being looked for?


Peter Q.

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peter@zuluwars




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 1:41 pm

Subject --- Captain Davey:

Further to my last, page 167 ZV


" Met Davey of the Glosters."

Peter Q.
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WeekendWarrior

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 1:58 pm

This is our Davey but he was a Capt and I see nothing connecting him to the Contingent. The Col. Browne Capt with a similar name mentioned earlier in this thread is Capt Develin.

Aussie, any way you could send me those Macleroy letters?
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 5:13 pm

From Cam Simpson
Norris Edward Davey Lieutenant in the Alexandra Mounted Rifles in 1873 then in 1874 was appointed Lieutenant and Drill instructor to the Natal Volunteer Force including the AMR and DMR, In 1877 he was appointed Captain and Adjutant of the Natal Volunteer Force and also made Staff Clerk hence in the field he was doing the job he was paid for in the NVF. Not in the NMP ever but no doubt in Zululand associated with them.
Sorted, Thanks Pete for the references.
Julian that really fits in with our suspicions.
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 5:30 pm

Very good. Something else settled that's been plaguing me over the years! Does Cam have any idea which other units were included under the NVF umbrella?
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aussie inkosi

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 7:13 pm

Weekend Warrior

Will send it, once I finish work.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 8:59 pm

Julian
All the Natal Volunteers that were raised ar the time, even those not mobilised during the war.
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 7:37 am

Frank
I think 'Forgotten Heroes' was wrong to list Davey under the title 'Natal Volunteer Force' as if it were a separate entity. I dare say the wording of his appointment confused the matter simply by using the phrase as a generic term. He should appear under 'Alexandra Mounted Rifles' since that I imagine was the uniform he was wearing.
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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 7:43 am

Hi All

Can someone post a image of Davey please.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 8:33 am

Julian you make a fair point.
Have a look at one of Cams essay's: https://www.anglozuluwar.com/images/Journal_39/Colonial_Officers_in_the_Anglo_Zulu_War.pdf
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 9:16 am

Frank
I've re-read and reminded myself of this and its overview is useful. I can see that you are probably right in stating (yesterday) that Davey's appointment covered ALL the volunteer units raised at THAT time (i.e. in 1877). At first I had incorrectly assumed that it might just cover those units that were immediately to hand, or those that that had camped and messed together en route from Durban to the front but I can see, given the date of his appointment, that his role during the AZW must have been difficult with the units spread out as they were. I do want to check the various numbers by Stalker et al. given for the NC and NMP to see whether he was 'lumped' together with one or the other of them (since he undoubtedly messed with them), always making the totals one out thereby.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 9:31 am

Reading MacPhail its also a possibility that he messed with the BBG.
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Frank Allewell

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 9:55 am

Peter Q has brought up some interesting points from 'Zulu Victory' that indicates Davey was out with Dartnell and sent back to camp to liase with Chelmsford. (Clery) It seems to be suggested that Davey then returned, very early morning to Dartnell. If this is the situation, how did he get mixed up with Col Russell?
Curious?
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Julian Whybra




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 10:05 am

I was wondering who else would pick up on that! I'm pondering on it.
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gardner1879

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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 7:54 pm

There is this relating to the NVF/AMR in February 1879:-
"The corps suffered no casualties to personnel during the war. Two of its members Captain Lewis E. Davey and Sergeant Major Bru-de-Wold were mentioned in despatches for their services in the field"
The Natal Mounted Rifles History Goetzsache p35.

Goetzsachs has this on page 40 relating to the Durban Mounted Rifles
"Sergeant Baker. late C.M.R., was the first instructor , he was succeeded a year or two later by Sergeant Clark, who in turn was followed by Lieut. N.E. Davey of the Alexandra Mounted Rifles."

Two Davey's or a spelling mistake?

Colonial Army list for 1881 (Natal) shows Drill Instructor Volunteer Force:-
Davey N.E. 23rd Jan J874
Capt. and Adj. 17th Aug. 77

There is also a Lieut. P.F.J. Davey in the Natal Native Levies (1879 clasp)



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rai




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Capt. Davey Empty
PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptySun Oct 31, 2021 10:15 pm

Hi All,
Norris Edward Davey Staff officer Natal Volunteer Force, D.30 July 1889 Aged 40, he is buried in Fort Napier Cem PMBurg, a photo of the grave appears on the eGGSA Library, Gravestones in South Africa site.
This site is just wonderful for finding the Graves of those who not only died in the Zulu War but also the frontier wars 1877-1881 and the First Boer war 1881 plus many who took part in all these wars.
I have definately had to much time on my hands recently i have a pile of photos of graves three inches high i will start posting some of these soon.
Rai KLH.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 7:46 am

Rai
Good to hear from you. Thanks for the post. I'm finding it fascinating that the Natal Volunteer Force does seem to have been an organizational entity all of its own, quite independent from the various colonial units and serving as a sort of umbrella 'staff corps' to them. The 1889 grave clearly states that he was of the Natal Volunteer Force implying that its existence was common knowledge.
Do you or does anyone else know anything about it? Do you know of any other posts it included or appointments made? Did it have a separate NVF badge and uniform?
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90th

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PostSubject: Capt Davey    Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 1:37 pm

Hi All
I checked through ' The Armed Forces Of S.A 1659- 1954 ' by Major G. Tylden , no mention of a unit known as the Natal Volunteer Force , there's a unit titled ' The Natal Volunteer Guides ' formed in 1879.
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 2:25 pm

Gary,

The Natal Volunteer Guides were a composite unit drawn from a number of Natal volunteer units, when the Natal Legislative prohibited the service of the Natal volunteers beyond the boundaries of the colony following the disaster at iSandlwana.

The Natal Volunteer Force was established in 1874, following the Langalibalele uprising of the previous year.  The War Office Army List of January - March 1879 lists the following:

Natal
(Corrected to 31st July 1878.)
Major Commandant Volunteer Force.
J. G. Dartnell, late 27 F.
Drill Instructor Volunteer Force.
N. E. Davey.    23 Jan 74
Capt. & Adj. 17 Aug 77.

I would scan the entry but book’s tight binding prohibits it.
JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 2:40 pm

A tad long at close to 400 pages but a brilliant thesis on the volunteer forces of Natal.
The Making of Natal: Defensive institutions and State Formation in Nineteenth Century South Africa.

The bottom line is that an organisation was needed to control and administer all the citizen forces and militia being formed so the umbrella body of the NVF was formed under Dartnell. Interesting during the Boer War it had as its commander a bloke called Royston, should ring a bell.

https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6904&context=etd



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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 2:44 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 3:37 pm

Well done John. Any sign of any uniform insignia?
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 4:25 pm

Re my posting above, there is a copy of the Colonial Army Lists for July-August 1881 in Dutton's page 183/4 which shows Davey and Dartnell
Should save your binding John.
Kate
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 4:43 pm

That 'Staff Position' Frank seems evident in the case of Sergeant Bru-de-Wold's claim for his horse being shot in February 1879.
He is awarded a low amount for his dead mount and his officer Captain Arbuthnot appeals to the Commandant of Volunteers
This is turned down by the Commandant of the Natal Volunteer Force in Pietermaritzburg so it seems there is that administrative role covering all the Volunteer and Militia units.
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 5:24 pm

I know its not very clear Julian but this picture shows Dartnell and could give you an idea of the uniform of the NVF.

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John has him in the role in 1878 and my last post shows him still there in 1881 so the date of the photo fits.
Kate
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 6:09 pm

Thanks both of you. It looks as though there were 2 NVF officers out with Chelmsford on the 22nd and explains why Chelmsford was able to 'sideline' Dartnell into the Column Staff role and away from commanding the NMP etc. directly and into the hands of Russell.
Do we know whether Dartnell had to resign as Commandant of the NMP and who replaced him?
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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 6:47 pm

Inspector Mansel took charge of the police when Dartnell was moved onto the General's Staff
Lieut. Col. Mitchell is later referred to as being appointed acting Commandant in the absence of Major Dartnell
He eventually handed over control in 1903 to Chief Commissioner Colonel Mansel C.M.G.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 9:35 pm

Hi Kate
Yes Mansell took de facto charge of the NMP at Isandhlwana but not as Commandant of the NMP in totality.
When you wrote Mitchell "later" was appointed Commdt. "in the absence" of Dartnell do you happen to know when that was? Shortly after or long after Dartnell's appointment as NVF Commandant?
These are all technical points but all highly relevant in terms of who was responsible for what on the 22nd January and who took decisions.
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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyTue Nov 02, 2021 10:32 am

Morning Julian
Check out page 76 of Holt's "The Mounted Police of Natal" which lists Mitchell as being appointed acting Commandant.
Kate Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyTue Nov 02, 2021 11:52 am

There are some discrepancies with the Davey accounts.unless of course he was a practitioner in "quantum superposition,"
Macphail has him at iSandlwana on the 21st, quite late in the day. But Clery has him riding into camp early evening from Dartnell.
Yet again Davey was sent back to Dartnell, sometime between 1 to 2 am on the 22nd with a message concerning the planned attack for the next morning.
Yet He pitches up with Colonel Russell and the mounted detachment at around 11.30 am.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Capt. Davey   Capt. Davey EmptyTue Nov 02, 2021 12:15 pm

Look at the dates of the various accounts to see who was writing contemporaneously. That should help clarify.
Thanks Kate I shall look in Holt.
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