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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Who fired first

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8374
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyThu Aug 29, 2013 9:13 am

As Charles Raw has been blamed on occasion for starting the battle by firing on the hidden impi I thought its time to put that statement to the test.
Raws statement says: .... The enemy had already opened fire on us, we then opened fire upon them and retired skirmishing.....
Nyandas statement.........Mr Shepstone then said to me you must retreat fighting and draw them towards the camp.The enemy then began firing.....
Hamer doesnt comment on who fired first.

Cheers
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impi

impi


Posts : 2308
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Age : 42

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 8:34 am

What would you say Springbok, considering the aftermath of his actions. 
Because you can bet your life, if the Zulu had lost that day, Raw would have been claiming the credit for engaging the Zulu first!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 8:47 am

impi
Yep your quite right. Unfortunatly we tend to look at all the source material with a jaundiced eye because of the Chelmsford/Crealock cover up attempts. If it was a once of account we could dismiss it, but its confirmed by Nyanda and also two seperate zulu accounts ( Im busy going through Keith Smith for those two sources at present, I think one was malinda).
Its not a life shattering point that would change anything, just interesting to put to bed.
I have heard it argued , probably CTSG, that if Raw hadnt fired the zulu wouldnt have charged. But there is plenty of evidence that there were at least two other charges before Raw. So the regiments were keyed up.
There again depends if you believe TMFH theory, in that case the Raw sighting was of no consequence, they were set to attack anyway.

Actually the only person thats laid claim to firing the first shot was Stafford.......................and he wasnt there!

Cheers
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impi

impi


Posts : 2308
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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 7:23 pm

springbok9 wrote:
impi
Yep your quite right. Unfortunatly we tend to look at all the source material with a jaundiced eye because of the Chelmsford/Crealock cover up attempts. If it was a once of account we could dismiss it, but its confirmed by Nyanda and also two seperate zulu accounts ( Im busy going through Keith Smith for those two sources at present, I think one was malinda).
Its not a life shattering point that would change anything, just interesting to put to bed.
I have heard it argued , probably CTSG, that if Raw hadnt fired the zulu wouldnt have charged. But there is plenty of evidence that there were at least two other charges before Raw. So the regiments were keyed up.
There again depends if you believe TMFH theory, in that case the Raw sighting was of no consequence, they were set to attack anyway.

Actually the only person thats laid claim to firing the first shot was Stafford.......................and he wasnt there!

Cheers
Never heard of that, where did this charge take place, at what time?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:34 am

Firing was heard from the mangeni area, two regiments started to charge then were recalled.

Cheers
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:37 am

Who claims to have heard this springbok Question 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:44 am

There are a number of Zulu accounts of it. Umguku of the umCijo, also a member of the Nokhenke are two that spring to mind

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:07 am

Just reading the statement of Uguku to confirm his story.
found this............ we saw a body of horse coming up the hill towards us from Sandhlwana side, We opened fire on them and then the whole of our army rose.......
Confirmation from the Zulu side that they fired first.

Cheers
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:07 am

Are you able to post this information Question 

Here an extract form the Mehlokazulu Kasihayo Interview.

Q: Who attacked you first ?

A: The white and black mounted troops attacked us. The Zulu regiments were all hidden in the valley I mentioned, but Umcityu (uMcijo) launched his reply from below the Nqutu and was sighted by the men of the English forces on horseback, who could see Umcityu, but couldn't see the main body of the army. They open fire and as one and the main body of the Zulu Army took form in all directions, hearing the shooting. The attention of the English mounted troops was drawn towards the few men who had responded to their action and before these men knew where the main Zulu body was, we got up and left like a swarm of bees in every direction. When they saw how many of us there were, they withdrew and the uKhandempenvu Regiment pursued them.

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:14 am

Mehlokazulus statement confuses the issue.
He had been on a scouting mission and reported back to Tsingwyo aho commented " All right we will see what they are going to do." Shortly after while Mehlokazlu was eating he heard Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble and advance in the direction of the English Camp. We were fired on first by the mounted men......... I think pretty good proof that the Zulu army was allready advancing before they were spotted and repudiates the Day of the Dead Moon theory.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:20 am

Chard
Statements are:
NAM 6807-386-8-58 Malindi
REM. Royal Engineers Journal 2nd Feb 1880 pp 23-24 Mahlokazulu
TNA ( PRO) Wo 33/34, Inclsure 2 in No 80: Nokhenke deserter
FE Colenso, The Zulu War and its Origins, p.410-413 Uguku of the umCijo.

Cheers
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impi

impi


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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:03 am

We are still talking about the Battle of Isandlwana.
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John

John


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Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:44 am

It would be impossible to say who fired the first shot!! Exclamation
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