WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Sir George Pomeroy Colley
Who fired first EmptyToday at 6:26 am by gardner1879

» Ingvald N NIlson
Who fired first EmptyToday at 5:40 am by gardner1879

» New Cabinet card
Who fired first EmptyYesterday at 7:59 pm by ciroferrara

» Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies
Who fired first EmptyYesterday at 4:07 pm by Julian Whybra

» Bechuanaland police
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:18 pm by ciroferrara

» 17th Lancers
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:07 pm by gardner1879

» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
Who fired first EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 4:02 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captain Robert Francis Vetch
Who fired first EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 1:03 pm by Frank Allewell

» The difference between a Drummer and a Boy in the Band.
Who fired first EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 4:07 am by magolding

» Zulu Boys Recollection of the Zulu War
Who fired first EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 3:40 am by magolding

» Remembering the Rebellion - The Zulu Uprising of 1906 Jeff Guy
Who fired first EmptyMon Jun 20, 2022 10:09 pm by Ian Chard

» Sergeant Arthur Horatio Still, 12th Lancers
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 7:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Lawler 1/24th
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:42 pm by gardner1879

» Quartermaster Michael James Kenny Connaught Rangers
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:39 pm by gardner1879

» Captain Ulick De Burgh
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 8:55 am by gardner1879

» I am a happy boy!
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 5:17 am by nitro450

» Patrick Murray, 313, 88th of Foot
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 5:22 pm by gardner1879

» Zulu Dawn on DVD - better than Blu-Ray?
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 3:29 pm by TimmyH

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 2:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Howard Molyneux Edward Brunker
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 16, 2022 11:05 am by gardner1879

» Location of Special Service Officers 1878/9
Who fired first EmptyWed Jun 15, 2022 12:34 pm by gardner1879

» Cdvs and cabinet card photos wanted
Who fired first EmptyTue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm by ciroferrara

» Other ranks patrol jacket
Who fired first EmptyMon Jun 13, 2022 12:23 pm by John Young

» A Staffordshire Regiment in the Zulu and Zekukuni Campaigns
Who fired first EmptySun Jun 12, 2022 5:12 pm by gardner1879

» Good website or seller for zulu war era Carte De Visites
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 11, 2022 2:27 pm by ciroferrara

» In search of more service papers
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 11:10 pm by charltontom7@gmail.com

» Isandlwana solving the enigma
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 1:41 pm by Julian Whybra

» Brave mens blood. Frontier Light Horse picture
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 09, 2022 8:54 pm by ciroferrara

» Picture Quiz
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 04, 2022 2:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Platinum Jubilee
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 03, 2022 10:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Trooper G Hennessey (301) Frontier Light Horse
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 02, 2022 2:43 pm by 90th

» Captain Robert Julian Orde Jocelyn 8th Reg
Who fired first EmptyMon May 30, 2022 6:48 am by gardner1879

» Best book on colonial soldiers during zulu war
Who fired first EmptySun May 29, 2022 12:14 am by ciroferrara

» Sergeant E Wilson
Who fired first EmptyWed May 25, 2022 9:30 am by gardner1879

» 1940 Review of 'Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War'
Who fired first EmptyTue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm by gardner1879

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
littlehand
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
ADMIN
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
1879graves
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
rusteze
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
John
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
gardner1879
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
John Young
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
ciroferrara
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Vaughan
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Ian Chard
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Bill8183
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
90th
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Tim Needham
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
martini horse smith Russell drift Police Mounted harford james taylor carbineers George Durnford spalding Isandlwana Woolfryes zulu 24th Prince william Natal john Franklin brown payne henry
 

 Who fired first

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyThu Aug 29, 2013 9:13 am

As Charles Raw has been blamed on occasion for starting the battle by firing on the hidden impi I thought its time to put that statement to the test.
Raws statement says: .... The enemy had already opened fire on us, we then opened fire upon them and retired skirmishing.....
Nyandas statement.........Mr Shepstone then said to me you must retreat fighting and draw them towards the camp.The enemy then began firing.....
Hamer doesnt comment on who fired first.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 42

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 8:34 am

What would you say Springbok, considering the aftermath of his actions. 
Because you can bet your life, if the Zulu had lost that day, Raw would have been claiming the credit for engaging the Zulu first!
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 8:47 am

impi
Yep your quite right. Unfortunatly we tend to look at all the source material with a jaundiced eye because of the Chelmsford/Crealock cover up attempts. If it was a once of account we could dismiss it, but its confirmed by Nyanda and also two seperate zulu accounts ( Im busy going through Keith Smith for those two sources at present, I think one was malinda).
Its not a life shattering point that would change anything, just interesting to put to bed.
I have heard it argued , probably CTSG, that if Raw hadnt fired the zulu wouldnt have charged. But there is plenty of evidence that there were at least two other charges before Raw. So the regiments were keyed up.
There again depends if you believe TMFH theory, in that case the Raw sighting was of no consequence, they were set to attack anyway.

Actually the only person thats laid claim to firing the first shot was Stafford.......................and he wasnt there!

Cheers
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 42

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 7:23 pm

springbok9 wrote:
impi
Yep your quite right. Unfortunatly we tend to look at all the source material with a jaundiced eye because of the Chelmsford/Crealock cover up attempts. If it was a once of account we could dismiss it, but its confirmed by Nyanda and also two seperate zulu accounts ( Im busy going through Keith Smith for those two sources at present, I think one was malinda).
Its not a life shattering point that would change anything, just interesting to put to bed.
I have heard it argued , probably CTSG, that if Raw hadnt fired the zulu wouldnt have charged. But there is plenty of evidence that there were at least two other charges before Raw. So the regiments were keyed up.
There again depends if you believe TMFH theory, in that case the Raw sighting was of no consequence, they were set to attack anyway.

Actually the only person thats laid claim to firing the first shot was Stafford.......................and he wasnt there!

Cheers
Never heard of that, where did this charge take place, at what time?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:34 am

Firing was heard from the mangeni area, two regiments started to charge then were recalled.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:37 am

Who claims to have heard this springbok Question 
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:44 am

There are a number of Zulu accounts of it. Umguku of the umCijo, also a member of the Nokhenke are two that spring to mind

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:07 am

Just reading the statement of Uguku to confirm his story.
found this............ we saw a body of horse coming up the hill towards us from Sandhlwana side, We opened fire on them and then the whole of our army rose.......
Confirmation from the Zulu side that they fired first.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:07 am

Are you able to post this information Question 

Here an extract form the Mehlokazulu Kasihayo Interview.

Q: Who attacked you first ?

A: The white and black mounted troops attacked us. The Zulu regiments were all hidden in the valley I mentioned, but Umcityu (uMcijo) launched his reply from below the Nqutu and was sighted by the men of the English forces on horseback, who could see Umcityu, but couldn't see the main body of the army. They open fire and as one and the main body of the Zulu Army took form in all directions, hearing the shooting. The attention of the English mounted troops was drawn towards the few men who had responded to their action and before these men knew where the main Zulu body was, we got up and left like a swarm of bees in every direction. When they saw how many of us there were, they withdrew and the uKhandempenvu Regiment pursued them.

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:14 am

Mehlokazulus statement confuses the issue.
He had been on a scouting mission and reported back to Tsingwyo aho commented " All right we will see what they are going to do." Shortly after while Mehlokazlu was eating he heard Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble and advance in the direction of the English Camp. We were fired on first by the mounted men......... I think pretty good proof that the Zulu army was allready advancing before they were spotted and repudiates the Day of the Dead Moon theory.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:20 am

Chard
Statements are:
NAM 6807-386-8-58 Malindi
REM. Royal Engineers Journal 2nd Feb 1880 pp 23-24 Mahlokazulu
TNA ( PRO) Wo 33/34, Inclsure 2 in No 80: Nokhenke deserter
FE Colenso, The Zulu War and its Origins, p.410-413 Uguku of the umCijo.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 42

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:03 am

We are still talking about the Battle of Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
John

John


Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 59
Location : UK

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:44 am

It would be impossible to say who fired the first shot!! Exclamation
Back to top Go down
 
Who fired first
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Shots fired at Rorkes Drift

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: