WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» The Wrecked Camp
Who fired first EmptyToday at 3:14 am by Danny1960

» Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diary
Who fired first EmptyYesterday at 8:53 pm by 1879graves

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
Who fired first EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves

» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
Who fired first EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman

» Baron Von Steitencron
Who fired first EmptyWed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra

» Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - Memorial
Who fired first EmptyTue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th

» Writing advice
Who fired first EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra

» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
Who fired first EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne

» Bassage Diary
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra

» Prior to Sihayo's Kraal
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th

» British Fort Locations
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th

» Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment
Who fired first EmptyWed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra

» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879

» Hamilton Browne's birthday
Who fired first EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra

» Zulu "Corps"
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes

» Army Pay Department Personnel
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra

» Ntshingwayo birth date
Who fired first EmptySun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes

» Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family
Who fired first EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra

» Smith's Store/Hotel
Who fired first EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
Who fired first EmptyTue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Shaka iLembe
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84

» Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment
Who fired first EmptySat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman

» Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard
Who fired first EmptyTue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.
Who fired first EmptySat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra

» Fairlie's Native Police
Who fired first EmptyThu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes

» 24th Regiment side drum a plea for help
Who fired first EmptyThu May 02, 2024 6:11 pm by General Gordon

» Francis Shirley Russell 14th Hussars
Who fired first EmptyMon Apr 29, 2024 12:20 pm by IntCorpsMedals

» Looking for the medal to 1423 Pte. W. Gregg/Greig
Who fired first EmptySat Apr 27, 2024 1:46 am by sam steele

» 1409 Pte David Lloyd, Defender of Rorke's Drift
Who fired first EmptyFri Apr 26, 2024 8:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
Who fired first EmptyThu Apr 25, 2024 9:36 am by Hobbes

» Anson A. Mayer/Maher
Who fired first EmptyTue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm by cmeghen

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
July 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Branchjr
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
1879graves
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
90th
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
paulhellier
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
Hobbes
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
johnman
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
John Young
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
warrior3
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
ADMIN
Who fired first Bar_leftWho fired first BarWho fired first Bar_right 
New topics
» The Wrecked Camp
Who fired first EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
Who fired first EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 1:50 pm by paulhellier

» British Fort Locations
Who fired first EmptySun Jun 30, 2024 7:49 pm by 61MECH

» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
Who fired first EmptySat Jun 29, 2024 9:08 pm by Wayne

» Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:35 pm by gardner1879

» Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana
Who fired first EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879

» Army Pay Department Personnel
Who fired first EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 10:56 am by ANWYLL

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Who fired first

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyThu Aug 29, 2013 9:13 am

As Charles Raw has been blamed on occasion for starting the battle by firing on the hidden impi I thought its time to put that statement to the test.
Raws statement says: .... The enemy had already opened fire on us, we then opened fire upon them and retired skirmishing.....
Nyandas statement.........Mr Shepstone then said to me you must retreat fighting and draw them towards the camp.The enemy then began firing.....
Hamer doesnt comment on who fired first.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 8:34 am

What would you say Springbok, considering the aftermath of his actions. 
Because you can bet your life, if the Zulu had lost that day, Raw would have been claiming the credit for engaging the Zulu first!
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 8:47 am

impi
Yep your quite right. Unfortunatly we tend to look at all the source material with a jaundiced eye because of the Chelmsford/Crealock cover up attempts. If it was a once of account we could dismiss it, but its confirmed by Nyanda and also two seperate zulu accounts ( Im busy going through Keith Smith for those two sources at present, I think one was malinda).
Its not a life shattering point that would change anything, just interesting to put to bed.
I have heard it argued , probably CTSG, that if Raw hadnt fired the zulu wouldnt have charged. But there is plenty of evidence that there were at least two other charges before Raw. So the regiments were keyed up.
There again depends if you believe TMFH theory, in that case the Raw sighting was of no consequence, they were set to attack anyway.

Actually the only person thats laid claim to firing the first shot was Stafford.......................and he wasnt there!

Cheers
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 7:23 pm

springbok9 wrote:
impi
Yep your quite right. Unfortunatly we tend to look at all the source material with a jaundiced eye because of the Chelmsford/Crealock cover up attempts. If it was a once of account we could dismiss it, but its confirmed by Nyanda and also two seperate zulu accounts ( Im busy going through Keith Smith for those two sources at present, I think one was malinda).
Its not a life shattering point that would change anything, just interesting to put to bed.
I have heard it argued , probably CTSG, that if Raw hadnt fired the zulu wouldnt have charged. But there is plenty of evidence that there were at least two other charges before Raw. So the regiments were keyed up.
There again depends if you believe TMFH theory, in that case the Raw sighting was of no consequence, they were set to attack anyway.

Actually the only person thats laid claim to firing the first shot was Stafford.......................and he wasnt there!

Cheers
Never heard of that, where did this charge take place, at what time?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:34 am

Firing was heard from the mangeni area, two regiments started to charge then were recalled.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:37 am

Who claims to have heard this springbok Question 
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 8:44 am

There are a number of Zulu accounts of it. Umguku of the umCijo, also a member of the Nokhenke are two that spring to mind

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:07 am

Just reading the statement of Uguku to confirm his story.
found this............ we saw a body of horse coming up the hill towards us from Sandhlwana side, We opened fire on them and then the whole of our army rose.......
Confirmation from the Zulu side that they fired first.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:07 am

Are you able to post this information Question 

Here an extract form the Mehlokazulu Kasihayo Interview.

Q: Who attacked you first ?

A: The white and black mounted troops attacked us. The Zulu regiments were all hidden in the valley I mentioned, but Umcityu (uMcijo) launched his reply from below the Nqutu and was sighted by the men of the English forces on horseback, who could see Umcityu, but couldn't see the main body of the army. They open fire and as one and the main body of the Zulu Army took form in all directions, hearing the shooting. The attention of the English mounted troops was drawn towards the few men who had responded to their action and before these men knew where the main Zulu body was, we got up and left like a swarm of bees in every direction. When they saw how many of us there were, they withdrew and the uKhandempenvu Regiment pursued them.

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:14 am

Mehlokazulus statement confuses the issue.
He had been on a scouting mission and reported back to Tsingwyo aho commented " All right we will see what they are going to do." Shortly after while Mehlokazlu was eating he heard Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble and advance in the direction of the English Camp. We were fired on first by the mounted men......... I think pretty good proof that the Zulu army was allready advancing before they were spotted and repudiates the Day of the Dead Moon theory.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 9:20 am

Chard
Statements are:
NAM 6807-386-8-58 Malindi
REM. Royal Engineers Journal 2nd Feb 1880 pp 23-24 Mahlokazulu
TNA ( PRO) Wo 33/34, Inclsure 2 in No 80: Nokhenke deserter
FE Colenso, The Zulu War and its Origins, p.410-413 Uguku of the umCijo.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:03 am

We are still talking about the Battle of Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
John

John


Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 61
Location : UK

Who fired first Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who fired first   Who fired first EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:44 am

It would be impossible to say who fired the first shot!! Exclamation
Back to top Go down
 
Who fired first
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Shots fired at Rorkes Drift

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: