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littlehand

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PostSubject: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyThu Sep 19, 2013 7:50 pm

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We know Zulus were hung and shot accused of being a spies. 
Was it just a case of those Zulus found near a British camp,were spies and shot! 

Or are there any records that show, Zulus being accused of spying being found guilty in the correct eviroment ( A millitary court of sorts) and then sentenced to death. Did the Zulu get a chance to defend themselves?
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Zulu Spies   Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 2:20 am

Hi Littlehand .
I'm happy to be corrected but I cant remember reading where there were any courts / trials etc etc . It was a case of your a spy and that's that ! .
90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu Spies    Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 am

I forgot to add there is a book about Spies and Espionage during the AZW , Sorry, but I dont have it .
90th Salute 
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 3:42 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand .
I'm happy to be corrected but I cant remember reading where there were any courts / trials etc etc . It was a case of your a spy and that's that ! .
90th.
Yes, in his memoir Smith-Dorrien recounts how the gallows he originally had built at Rorke's Drift to stretch out reims (tack for the oxen) were used to hang three (if memory serves) Zulu who were accused of being spies. Although he doesn't make any specific accusation, he strongly implies it was unjustified vigilantism.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 3:48 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand .
I'm happy to be corrected but I cant remember reading where there were any courts / trials etc etc . It was a case of your a spy and that's that ! .
90th.
Yes, in his memoir Smith-Dorrien recounts how the gallows he originally had built at Rorke's Drift to stretch out reims (tack for the oxen) were used to hang three (if memory serves) Zulu who were accused of being spies.  Although he doesn't make any specific accusation, he strongly implies it was unjustified vigilantism.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 9:50 pm

Hi, littlehand,90th,6pdr, page 19 MOF8HS.

" and there was my wagon some two hundred yards away, riddled
and looted; and there was the reim gallows i had erected the previous
morning. dead annimals and cattle everywhere-such scene of devast-
ation! to my young mind it appeared impossible that order could ever be
restored, but i set to work,and next day.whilst sitting in my wagon, i
saw two Zulus hanging on my gallows and was accused by the brigade
major Clery of having given the order. i was exonerated , however,when
it was found that it was a case of lynch law performed by incensed men,
who were bitter at the loss of their comrades, other incidents of the sort
occurred in the next few days before law and order was re-established.
cheers xhosa
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 10:27 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Hi, littlehand,90th,6pdr,   page 19 MOF8HS.

"...it was found that it was a case of lynch law performed by incensed men,
who were bitter at the loss of their comrades, other incidents of the sort
occurred in the next few days before law and order was re-established."
Even more strongly worded than I remembered...especially the last bit about it taking days to reestablish "law and order." I don't think there was a scintilla of official recognition of any of this...but I doubt that was all that unusual (see Breaker Morant.) I wonder if there was any link to the lurid accounts of how the British dead were stripped and mutilated that some reporters reported later or it was just a form of hysteria? One thing that strikes me...this doesn't quite fit with Mr. Snook's portrait of perfectly disciplined, red coated automatons he claims inhabited the battlefield.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyFri Sep 20, 2013 10:33 pm

"Judge, Jury, Executioner"




 I have been looking for the a particular incident, where some Zulus were put in the charge of a Sgt, who misunderstood what was said to him, and he hung them. Anyone recall reading this. Question 
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 1:42 am

"Judge, Jury, Executioner"

littlehand.who,expand please,
cheers xhosa
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90th

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PostSubject: zulu spies    Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 3:17 am

Hi Littlehand .
Yes it certainly happened , it was the day after the battle of RD and it took place at RD. From memory it's on here somewhere , I'll try and find it again .
Cheers 90th .
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu Spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 4:56 am

Littlehand I found the following in ' Rorke's Drift By Those Who Were There ' by Jones & Stevenson .
This appears to have been from Col Sgt Bourne talking to a ' Sunday Express Reporter ' 22nd Jan 1938 .
'' One zulu who was alive had been left for dead . Later in the day Lt Bromhead sent for me and said , very
urgently . '' Where's that man who was just here with a prisoner ? Find that man and bring him here '' .
I went round asking , '' Who's the man who's got a prisoner ? ''. They said . 'Ashton , of course '. Ashton was a lusty Irishman. I found Ashton. '' What have you done with your prisoner ? '' I said. He pointed to a tree from which the Zulu's body was hanging. '' I took him to Lt Bromhead '' , said the innocent Irishman . '' And he told me to get the hell out of here with him , and I did .''

Found this in Harford's Journal , it may be another zulu ????.

In front of the fort and some 600 or 700 yards down the slope of the hill , a scaffold had been put up by the Comm Dept on which the carcasses of the cattle were hung up previous to issue , and one morning Maj Black and I were sitting outside , warming ourselves in the sun and chatting , when we saw a most extraordinary looking object suspended on the scaffold , and wondered what on earth it could be . Presently , a Pvt of the 24th came up from that direction , and Black asked him what the thing was and he said that it was a Kaffir spy that had been hanged . '' Good Heaven's '' , said Black , '' By whose orders was he hung ?'' , '' Capt Harford , Sir '' . Was the reply , so we went down at once to look into the matter . The poor wretch , who was an old , wizened - up , grey headed native , had apparantly been dead for some hours , and must have been hung some time during the night , but by whom it was never discovered . Every possible enquiry was made , but not a soul knew anything about it and nothing was known of the native or where he could have come from .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo 


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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 10:49 am

Hiya 90th,well dug out mate,
i had forgotten about the
Harford account,
cheers xhosa
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90th

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PostSubject: zulu spies    Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 12:48 pm

Hixhosa.
Salute 
cheers 90th.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 2:59 pm

90th wrote:
Found this in Harford's Journal , it may be another  zulu ????
I can't help thinking of the coincidence that Smith-Dorrien and Harford traveled to S. Africa not only on the same ship, but sharing the same cabin. Both of them then go on to mention a Zulu hanged after RD...and both say the lynching was (falsely) attributed to them. Is it possible that these two acquaintances (perhaps friends) shared the story and then both owned it? Obviously that needn't be true...but it's a pretty odd coincidence that the teller is accused of being the perpetrator in both instances...and we have little other corroboration. Just something to ponder...
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 4:00 pm

6pdr wrote:
90th wrote:
Found this in Harford's Journal , it may be another  zulu ????
I can't help thinking of the coincidence that Smith-Dorrien and Harford traveled to S. Africa not only on the same ship, but sharing the same cabin.  Both of them then go on to mention a Zulu hanged after RD...and both say the lynching was (falsely) attributed to them.  Is it possible that these two acquaintances (perhaps friends) shared the story and then both owned it?  Obviously that needn't be true...but it's a pretty odd coincidence that the teller is accused of being the perpetrator in both instances...and we have little other corroboration.  Just something to ponder...
Now that is a very good point!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 5:08 pm

Interesting point, well found.
Salute 
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 5:20 pm

To add to the interest George Hamilton Browne alleges that he captured a spy whilst at Rorke's Drift.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Turn the pages and discover that the blame is again placed on an Irishman.

John Y.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 6:06 pm

John Young wrote:
To add to the interest George Hamilton Browne alleges that he captured a spy whilst at Rorke's Drift.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Turn the pages and discover that the blame is again placed on an Irishman.

John Y.
Yes that is interesting because Maori uses it as almost as stock tale (with him at the center of course, like all of Browne's recollections.)

When I think of how long after the war Smith-Dorrien wrote his memoir...and all the doubt around the "my kingdom for a screwdriver" ammunition boxes and reversing the names of the quartermasters...well...it just makes me think...hmmmm.

I wish that Maori had said he and Harford and Smith-Dorrien shared a cabin on the way HOME from South Africa, because then we'd really have something to kick around! Wink
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 8:44 pm

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From Shiyane, Lloyd had used his binoculars to create an intimate sketch of Isandlwana, depicting Zulu warriors still wandering through the abandoned wagons and the decomposing body of a wagon driver crumpled on a rock. His sketch of Rorke’s Drift included a butcher’s scaffold where Zulu prisoners had been hung the day after the attack.

I'm not sure if this is the sketch in-question, or if it's just a section of the sketch. I have inserted a red-line showing what I think could be the scaffold in-question ?? comments welcome!!!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySat Sep 21, 2013 10:18 pm

John Young wrote:
To add to the interest George Hamilton Browne alleges that he captured a spy whilst at Rorke's Drift.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Turn the pages and discover that the blame is again placed on an Irishman.

John Y.
Thanks John. That is the account I recall!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 8:30 am

Wasnt there a case of Browne riding over the drift to shoot a couple of sangomas that he thought were spying?

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu Spies    Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 9:53 am

Hi Springy .
'' Maori '' certainly mentions in his book something along those lines , he also talks of interagating prisoners or prisoner
and stops short of saying they were executed , but he does say it in a roundabout way ! . I assume that makes sense .
Cheers 90th.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 10:46 am

I think, the two Zulus you mentioned appeared everyday on a hill. Watching the British and were sending smoke signals to the Zulus. Browne and another waited for them one day and shot them, I think he mentions that one was an old hag Question
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90th

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PostSubject: zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 11:13 am

Ray63 you may be right , that does jog the memory . I certainly remember him dealing with an old hag as he describes her .
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 11:41 am

Wish I could shoot the old Hag that hangs round my front door begging for food, cant because my wife is fond of her mum. Not getting involved 
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu Spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 11:57 am

Hi Springy .
Like it ! Very Happy  Very Happy 
90th Salute 
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 2:42 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Springy .
'' Maori '' certainly mentions in his book something along those lines...
Maori mentions a lot of things. Personally, I don't believe a word until somebody else has corroborated. But here is an interesting little exercise. On the bottom of page 157 he talks about ammunition that was buried near Sandspruit in the wake of Isandlwana. He says the markers were then washed away by a storm and it was never found. Provided nobody knows differently, why doesn't somebody local set out with some metal detectors and see if they can find i! I'm sure it would be worth a tidy little sum on eBay if you could (legally) claim and sell it.

Don't all volunteer at once!
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 3:15 pm

There's is something on the forum relating to this. Is was buried to prevent it falling into enermy hands. But agree it shouldn't be to hard to find considering the amount and technology today.
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu Spies    Zulu spies EmptySun Sep 22, 2013 3:33 pm

Fairly certain I may have posted that article a couple of years back ! . So it is on here somewhere .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 1:22 am

" Maori mentions a lot of things. Personally, I don't believe a word until somebody else has corroborated"....fair point till you consider.
he was there!! he was amongst the first to think.oop's,
think about it...he was there.did he salute Pulleine?.whatever.
what a personality. cheers xhosa
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 3:20 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
" think about it...he was there.
Yes. He was there. And at the Little, Big Horn too. Think about it. Suspect 
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu spies   Zulu spies EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 8:28 am

And he ate a child!
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