The end of TMFHT

Possibly the statement that kills of The missing five hours theory. Very clearly intimates the Zulu regiments in a ravine.

Charles Raw

A group of my men saw a few Zulus herding some cattle up a slope some distance ahead. We gave chase and the herders ran over the crest of the slope and disappeared. We were about four miles from the head of the spur and out of sight of the outpost there. A trooper cantered up by the cattle on the crest and pulled his horse up just in time to prevent a tumble over the edge of a wide deep ravine. Closely packed and sitting in utter silence, covering the floor of the ravine and perched on the steeply rising sides, stretched as far as the eye could see in both directions, were over 20,000 Zulu warriors. This was the main impi


The only piece of ground this corresponds to is the Ngwebeni Valley.

Hi Frank
I never bought into it in the first place ! . Where was this Raw statement , Capetown Archives ? .
90th

Morning Gary
I will post the whole statement shortly. I Found it in the KC. Its most probably 'out there' at present but its the first time ive actually seen it in full.
My opinion on TMFH is/was always a wait and see. R and Q did miss out on a lot but the theory was 'acceptable' to a degree, enough for me to sit on the fence at any rate.
Still lots of respect to them both for publishing it.
Cheers Mate

Agreed ...takes BALLS to publish , especially something differing from the norm . Interesting Cricket match the other day , I watched the last over on Youtube , couldn't believe they CHOKED !
90th

Id written the game off so didnt bother watching the last few overs. Decided to do something more fun, watched the grass grow for a while but couldnt handle the tension so spent some time watching the paint dry.
Really not looking forward to your lot coming out here.

Hi Frank,

If you listen carefully you may be able to hear a sigh of relief coming from Chichester.......

Cheers

Sime

Indeed Sime

Sorry guys
Been so busy with my pans and haven't been on the sight for a while and this subject happens to pop up my favorite. So I have been doing a hell of a lot of research and at last I work out where Trooper Barker saw that large army hidden behind a hill a short distance from Itusi, what one needs to do is to determine the time which by reading his testimony he states once he spots this army he informs Lieut Scott of his find and is then sent to HQ to report he then heads back to Itusi but first bumps into the rocket battery this will make it about 11:30am so the sighting Large Zulu army behind this hill near Itusi can be timed at around 1045 this same Zulu  army Barker spots behind a hill is the same one Essex states 3 Zulu columns retiring this message reaches Durnford which prompts his move to move Raw and Roberts up and the Rocket battery the only difference is that Barkers report confirmed was received at HQ after the Zulus retiring
message arrived this army that retired did not retire to the valley were the historical account says the discovery took place but behind this hill 600 to 800 meters from Itusi  BARKER CONFIRMS THIS 100%
not only that, reed his testimony its clear as crystal he sees Raws  and Roberts troops to his left he states he has just arrived at his Picket position ITUSI  and hears the first gun shots, there not coming from the Ngbweni valley there coming from his left [Left of ITUSI ] Raw and Roberts has just cross over this same hill Barker sights a large army less than one hour ago THE MISSING FIVE HOURS IS 100% CORRECT  read it for your self Barker is the key to the discovery and he is on Itusi. Now concerning this hill you will all need to wait until my websight is online i have identified it on one of my panorama's

YOUR THOUGHTS GUYS but please read Barkers testimony first, carefully very carefully.

Just the discovery part is 100 % correct? Or do you believe their conjecture that the battle had already started?
Those who would disagree often state the visibility from Mkwene to the valley as proof they retired all the way back. So:
What difference in topography is there from 1879to today.
Do any sources EXPLICITLY state they retired all the way out of sight?
The speed with which the attack developed could suggest they were much closer.
From Frank's quote above Raw states four miles, which is what, 2.5 miles nearer than the valley?

Bill

All
The statement that Frank quotes at the beginning was not written by Raw. I wrote it for a schools' children's extension project in 1980 which summarized Raw's experience. It is clearly stated in the teacher's notes that it was fabricated for the purposes of the project. This has not prevented a handful of writers from quoting from it claiming it as a genuine account but without actually checking the reference with the Campbell Collections.
I repeat for the sake of absolute clarity that word for word, I wrote it. It is not Raw's own account.

Have reports of the demise of TMFHT been exaggerated.........?

Thats damned naughty Julian, I understand the concept you have aimed at but to be so specific in mentioning a 'ravine'?
A wasted few hours in the KC seeking that letter out that could have been spent else where.
A tad miffed to say the least !

Aussie, why do you firstly intimate Barker met the Rb on his way back to Scott and second how do you arrive at the time? Really interested in what your doing.

Hi Frank
I will go through it for you Barkers statement " “ Shortly afterwards numbers of Zulus being seen on the hills to the left and front, Trooper Swift and another were sent back to report.  The Zulus remained on the hills and about two hundred advanced to within three hundred yards of us , but on our advancing they retired out of sight and a few of us went up to this hill where the Zulus have disappeared , and on a further hill at about six hundred yards distance we saw a large army sitting down.  We returned to Lieut Scott who was about three miles from camp and reported what we have seen  Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp”.. “ On our way back we noticed Zulus advancing slowly ,and when about a mile and a half from the camp  we met the Rocket Battery, who enquired  the enemy’s whereabouts. We advised the officer to proceed to Lieut Scott was stationed , but he asked if he could get up the hill.  We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour.  The officer decided to proceed up this hill and the battery was , half an hour later cut up to a man”.

  The meeting with the rocket battery establish a approximate time  Private Grant of the rocket battery states the Rocket battery left camp at 11:15am  so the time Barker connects with them is around 11:30 and according to his statement above he sights the army behind a hill immediately reports it to Scott then sent to report his find to HQ he gives distances it would not of taken no more than 45 minutes from his sighting to his meeting the rocket battery, So he sights this army around 10:45am it also confirms that the message from Mkwene concerning Zulus retiring arrived some time between 10:30 - 1045am this is confirmed by Private Trainer who said at 10:50am Durnford announces his moves to Raw and Roberts Brickhill confirms they leave at 11am.  After speaking with the rocket battery Barker returns to Itusi and just as he arrives he notices Raw and Roberts on his left in skirmishing order this may indicate they moving towards these cattle and moments after gunshots are heard, Barker's statement   “ As Hawkins and I were returning to the vidette outpost we noticed the mounted Basutos to the extreme left of the camp in skirmishing order and masses of the Zulus on all the hills.  Firing was then heard for the first time, as although we had been within two hundred yards of the Zulus , we had strict orders not to fire the first shot, and no shot up to then had been fired on either side”. Zulus on the hills within sight of Itusi these same Zulus are from this army behind this hill of which Barker 1 hour before  notices a large army sitting down, there on the hill to stop the British pickets from discovering this army it remained behind this hill since around 10:30am and guess what when Barker returns to Itusi 15 minutes before he was speaking to Russell he notices Zulus on the hills again there doing the same job as before which clearly indicates there screening there army behind this hill and then gunshots are heard .

Barker confirms the true location of the discovery of this army which is in fact only 2 or maybe 3 regiments being the uMcijo, uNokenke, and possibly the umCityu.

Frank
the final words of Barker stement he said "We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour. The officer decided to proceed up this hill and the battery was , half an hour later cut up to a man”.

Barker warned Russel not to go up there why because he knows what there that army behind the hill. and half an hour later Russell is dead.

Hi Aussie. looking very interesting, we are at odds on some timings and interpretations but I look forward to reading your full essay.

Regards

Frank
You will note that I did not put any part of that printed children's booklet in the Campbell Collections. The 'Raw' page must have been separated out and placed there by some mischievous miscreant. Had someone copied it hand-written or was it a printed page?

Aussie
I think you have placed the departure of the RB from the camp too early and consequently everything else (which relies on it) is also too early. Grant wasn't the only one to give timings - some reports state they RB was in camp 20 mins before the orders were relayed, i.e. NOT before they physically left the camp but when orders relating to them were received. In terms of then preparing themselves for departure and moving through the camp to a start point on the camp perimeter, I don't believe the RB and Durnford's NNH could have left camp area itself much before 12.30-12.35.

Bonjour,
Julian: If Durnford left the camp around 12.30, he was still in camp at the arrival of Gardner and Shepstone (around noon).When Pulleine  met Gardner he did not tell him that he was not in command of the camp (he did not offer him to meet Durnford).
Unless, Gardner arrived at camp after 12.30 (after the departure of Durnford).
Amitié
Fred

aussie and ymob
Really sorry, I should have written 11.30-11.35 not 12.30-12.35. I have a head cold making me thicker than usual. Apologies.

Its a typed copy Julian but interestingly speaking to a close friend of the family they have a copy and believe it to be fact.

Frank
That means that someone deliberately typed out a page from a printed children's book and had it placed it in the museum as if genuine with the intention to deceive. Disgraceful. Perhaps you'd let the museum know next time you're there.

Julian Im in touch with Mbalenhle Zulu at KC. Ive also sent a message to the family advising them of the situation.

Frank tomorrow I'll scan and e-mail you the relevant pages from the book.

If you could, I can forward to the family, Just as confirmation.

Interesting adjunction to Freds comments. Gardner arrived in the camp at noon so if the RB had followed the route most historians maintain, through the camp, onto the track, across the donga and then turn North to the valley they would have run smack bang into each other. No record of that from Nourse, Gardner, Johnson et al.
Just a thought.

Bonjour,
Frank, No record also from the the Officers who left the camp with Durnford (Henderson, Davies...). We also know that Dunrford sent scouts: No record from them about Gardner's party.

Amitié
Fred
I.E: Julian, no need to apologize!

These facts accredit the "Durnford probable route" (Gunner William Taylor's essay).
Amitié
Fred

Indeed!
Julian

Tullock visited the battlefield in 1885. I have no further info than that, apart from his mention of a monument to Pope, can anyone fill in the blanks? Who was he, why was he there, what else did he mention, in what context was Pope mentioned.
Frank

Frank,
Tulloch wrote, « Recollections of Forty Years Service » (1903).
Amitié
Fred

Thanks Fred, the key issue for me was the date he was there.
Regards

frank

Frank,
I know only the month and the year.

Amitié
Fred

Hi Frank
I skimmed through Tulloch's book ' Recollections Of Forty Years Service ' he doesn't mention actually visiting Isandlwana , what he says and I quote ...'' Coal is not the only mineral wealth of Natal , close to Isandlwana I found a grand outcrop of Iron-ore ''........ no mention of visiting the Battlefield that I found in the book , although , you'd expect he probably did visit ? , he mentions he did a paper on the Zulu for Private Distribution , if he did visit Isandlwana the details may be therein ?.
90th

Thanks Gary, Fred managed to get me the info from a newspaper article, that does refer to an essay he wrote.
Second 1 day today I believe?

That paper is in the British Library. I read it in the mid-70s. I don't recall it being of any interest. I made no notes on it anyway and I don't think I took a photocopy but I'll check. A job for whoever's up in London next, coronavirus permitting!

It most certainly is of interest Julian.

Julian Whybra wrote:

aussie and ymob
Really sorry, I should have written 11.30-11.35 not 12.30-12.35.  I have a head cold making me thicker than usual.  Apologies.

Sorry for the late reply been very busy with everyone panic buying working 20 hours a day to try to keep up with demand wishing all good health, know to these timings eye witnesses confirm the rocket battery arrive in camp 11am and left around 11:15, remaining in camp for around 15 minutes and trooper Barker meets up with them before they climb they Nqutu Ridge making it around 11:30 or a little later from there Trooper Barker goes straight to Itusi where upon arriving he sees Raws and Roberts troops on his extreme left in skirmishing order most likely after those cattle and then Barker hears gun shot this is direct proof the discovery did not occur at the Ngbewni valley.

One question for all, where do you believe Raw and Roberts where located when they first saw those cattle? Mkwene or Mabaso these are the only two locations which can fit and if you have been on Mabaso you would have noticed its covered with rocks great ground for horses.

PLEASE KEEP SAFE ALL OF YOU UNDER THESE TRYING TIMES. it may be another late reply till I reply.

Morning Aussie
Your time and distance calculations dont work, it particular look at the speed of a column of casual infantry marching out of step.
I have by the way ridden up and across the ridge of Mabaso, its a heck of a lot better than believing Scott could ride his horse up Amatutshane.
Keep up the good working in your supplies to the stores mate. Sure as hell need them.

Frank

Aussie
I agree with Frank I'm afraid. Barker meeting the RB at 11.30 is far too early.
Julian

Hi Frank and Julian

Had a spare 5 minutes, just watch the news and Jo berg is going in lock down things are going crazy.

Frank as goes with timing Baker confirms the timings he had just arrived on Itusi when he see's Raw and Roberts troops to his extreme left "he saw them" location is confirmed his extreme left not Mabaso its to far and thats straight ahead about 4 miles further out he clearly states extreme left and then he hears gun shots they are the first gun shots Barker hears  this is confirmed again these gunshots Uguku confirms as one black trooper is shot dead those first shots killed that trooper, Barker confirms hearing those first shots coming from his extreme left.

Julian I calculated the timing from eyewitness testimony we know they left camp 11:15 how long would it take to walk towards Amatushane no more that 30 minutes and Barker meets with them before they reached Amatushane I may be out by 5 minutes but certainly 11:30 is close to the mark unless the Rocket battery left camp a little earlier or later then that 11:30 may be out by 10 to 15 minutes what time do you think they connected ? also Barker mentions within 30 minutes after meeting with them Russell was dead this also confirms the discovery happen in a close proximity because within 30 minutes he was killed if the discovery happen on the other side of Mabaso it would of taken much longer than 30 minutes those zulus Barkers squad scatters one hour before are most likely those who killed Russell read Barkers testimony he warn'd Russell not to go up there because he knew were the Zulus were hidden 700 meters from Itusi not behind Mabaso thats why the chest arrived much later in the battle because they came from Mabaso the first action is confirmed located around Bazas kraal which is near Mkwene these zulus in this action were the same zulus which were discovered only 2 or 3 regiments then shortly after that Durnford retires back to camp stops in a donga near Amatushane confirm also by Barker then rides back to his final donga as he rides to that donga the inGabamokosi streams down the notch then after that the chest arrives and the main attack begins. it all fits perfectly.

PLEASE KEEP SAFE ALL OF YOU.

Aussie inkosi
A question: Have you ever walked from the Bashee stream to the area of the waggon park i.e. the rear of the camp? Let's say a fast walk but not a jog. How long do you think it would take? I ask because you are a lot younger and fitter than I am and your own answer will be more acceptable to you if I am to prove my point.

Hi Julian

The distance is around 2km which will take around 20 to 30 minutes.

So if its correct they left camp around 11:15am and Trooper Barker connects with them before Amatushane then 11:30 is close to the mark, give or take 5 minutes.

Ausie
I don't think you read my last post correctly. I asked the walking time from the Bashee (Batshe) River to Isandhlwana. The distance is about 7.5 km in a straight line on the map. Using the track it is more like 10-12 km. I've never walked it so I don't know how long it would take. That is what I asked you.

Between 90 and 120 minutes

From the Bashe its a long uphill slog untill the current T junction then again uphill over the ridge, long straight down through the village and downslope to the Manzimyama then savage uphill to the saddle.
Hope that helps.

Aussie,
You wrote “I calculated the timing from eyewitness testimony we know they left camp 11:15”
I dispute that.  I know why you think it.  You arrive at it from “eyewitness testimony” i.e.

Grant                                                                                                                                      
“We arrived about 11 a.m. and remained near the Camp about ¼ of an hour.”
Johnson                                                                                                                                        
“We got to Isandhlwana…about 11 a.m.  We halted there about 10 minutes when … Durnford came down from the Camp of the 1/24th Regiment and gave orders…”
Trainer
“…at about 10.30 a.m. we arrived in…Camp and went to the…contingent huts…Durnford gave us orders not to off saddle, and went away…to the tents of the 1/24th…He returned about 10 minutes to 11 and ordered the… officers to fall in.”

Grant & Johnson estimate an arrival time of 11; Trainer estimates it as 10.30.
Grant estimates Durnford’s return to give them orders as 11.15, Johnson as 11.10, and Trainer as 10.50.
Only one out of three gives you 11.15 for Durnford’s return to give orders.  None of these three would have had a watch.  The only relative accuracy will be in the estimated time they had to wait for Durnford’s return, i.e. 15, 10 and 20 minutes respectively.  They cannot give any accuracy (beyond vaguely) for the Rocket Battery’s arrival time in camp.
So can we find an accurate time?  Yes, we can.  Lieut. Erskine helps to provide it.

Erskine:
“We marched as far as the Bashee stream about ten a.m., where Capt. Russell of the rocket battery gave orders for D company to march on with all speed with him, and E company, with Capt. Stafford, stayed behind to escort the wagons.”
The waggons had travelled just under half way to Isandhlwana and had crossed over the Bashee Drift.  The orders for Russell/Nourse were to march ahead with all speed leaving the waggons to follow behind in the care of Stafford’s E coy.

Frank reckons the time taken to walk from the Bashee to the camp is about 90-120 mins.
Travelling “with all speed”, and remembering that the Rocket Battery was mounted and left the Bashee “about ten a.m.”, I reckon the Rocket Battery/Nourse might have arrived on the saddle overlooking the camp at about 11.15-11.20.

From there, the Rocket Battery moved along the rear of the camp to a position behind the N.N.C. tents (which one is not mentioned but since they were both at the northern end of the camp a fairly precise position can be estimated).  This is known from Trainer’s testimony above and also from Interpreter Brickhill’s:

Brickhill
“8 natives came in from the South of the camp under a white flag…I took them to the Column office, and from there to Colonel Durnford at the back of the N.N.C. camp.”

According to Grant, Trainer and Johnson the Rocket Battery stayed in camp between 10 and 20 minutes.  At that point Durnford returned to the rear of the N.N.C. camps, called together his officers, and issued them with orders.  He then walked back to Pulleine’s tent in the 1/24th camp where he met Capt. Stafford.

Stafford had been with the waggons on the Bashee but according to Erskine left there at 10.15 to hurry on to Isandhlwana.

Erskine:
“After staying there [the Bashee] about a quarter of an hour, orders came for Capt. Stafford to leave part of his company as escort for the wagons, and to hurry on with the rest to the front.  He left me with 16 men, and told me to hurry on the wagons…”  

It would have taken Stafford about 75-80 mins. to make the journey, arriving at camp at about 11.30-11.35 just in time to see and be given orders by Durnford before the latter led the Rocket Battery and Nourse’s men out from the camp.

A departure time of 11.30-11.35 for the Rockey Battery means it would have stayed in camp for roughly 15 minutes after its arrival.

The important thing about the Rocket Battery speed is the rate of march by the NNC escort and the speed of the mules. If the column left the Mzinyathi camp at 7ish, and accepting Erskins time, it therefore took 3 hours to walk/march 60% of the distance so to cover the balance would 2 hours. That fits in with the rate of march as laid down in Field Service regulations. However the probable key is the rate of the mules, from the same regulations 3 miles per hour, 5 kilometres per hour.
If therefore we are going to reverse engineer the timings and stick to the possible 11.30 time of arrival that would effectivly rule out Erskin as an accurate source and put the time of reaching the Bashe at closer to 9.30/9.45

Frank
9.45 is close to 10 a.m. but...
remember that they had crossed the Bashee drift (that would take a little time in itself) and were resting (the mules) on the far bank and waiting for the ox-waggons to cross.
Remember also that the column would have all been going at the same pace as the 16 ox-waggons. Erskine's time of about 10 a.m. would fit very well.
I'm not sure Frank where you get the "11.30 time of arrival" from which you mention at the end of your last post. Whose arrival are you referring to?

Sorry that should have read departure