WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» The Wrecked Camp
The end of TMFHT EmptyToday at 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diary
The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves

» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman

» Baron Von Steitencron
The end of TMFHT EmptyWed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra

» Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - Memorial
The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th

» Writing advice
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra

» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne

» Bassage Diary
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra

» Prior to Sihayo's Kraal
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th

» British Fort Locations
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th

» Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment
The end of TMFHT EmptyWed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra

» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879

» Hamilton Browne's birthday
The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra

» Zulu "Corps"
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes

» Army Pay Department Personnel
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra

» Ntshingwayo birth date
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes

» Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family
The end of TMFHT EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra

» Smith's Store/Hotel
The end of TMFHT EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Shaka iLembe
The end of TMFHT EmptySat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84

» Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment
The end of TMFHT EmptySat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman

» Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard
The end of TMFHT EmptyTue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.
The end of TMFHT EmptySat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra

» Fairlie's Native Police
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes

» 24th Regiment side drum a plea for help
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu May 02, 2024 6:11 pm by General Gordon

» Francis Shirley Russell 14th Hussars
The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Apr 29, 2024 12:20 pm by IntCorpsMedals

» Looking for the medal to 1423 Pte. W. Gregg/Greig
The end of TMFHT EmptySat Apr 27, 2024 1:46 am by sam steele

» 1409 Pte David Lloyd, Defender of Rorke's Drift
The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Apr 26, 2024 8:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Apr 25, 2024 9:36 am by Hobbes

» Anson A. Mayer/Maher
The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Apr 23, 2024 7:10 pm by cmeghen

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
July 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
Branchjr
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
1879graves
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
90th
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
SRB1965
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
paulhellier
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
Hobbes
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
johnman
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
John Young
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
warrior3
The end of TMFHT Bar_leftThe end of TMFHT BarThe end of TMFHT Bar_right 
New topics
» The Wrecked Camp
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 1:50 pm by paulhellier

» British Fort Locations
The end of TMFHT EmptySun Jun 30, 2024 7:49 pm by 61MECH

» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
The end of TMFHT EmptySat Jun 29, 2024 9:08 pm by Wayne

» Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:35 pm by gardner1879

» Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana
The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879

» Army Pay Department Personnel
The end of TMFHT EmptyWed Jun 19, 2024 10:56 am by ANWYLL

Similar topics
    Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
    Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
    Fair Use Notice
    Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
     

     The end of TMFHT

    Go down 
    +5
    Bill8183
    aussie inkosi
    SRB1965
    90th
    Frank Allewell
    9 posters
    Go to page : 1, 2  Next
    AuthorMessage
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyThu Feb 13, 2020 10:28 am

    Possibly the statement that kills of The missing five hours theory. Very clearly intimates the Zulu regiments in a ravine.

    Charles Raw

    A group of my men saw a few Zulus herding some cattle up a slope some distance ahead. We gave chase and the herders ran over the crest of the slope and disappeared. We were about four miles from the head of the spur and out of sight of the outpost there. A trooper cantered up by the cattle on the crest and pulled his horse up just in time to prevent a tumble over the edge of a wide deep ravine. Closely packed and sitting in utter silence, covering the floor of the ravine and perched on the steeply rising sides, stretched as far as the eye could see in both directions, were over 20,000 Zulu warriors. This was the main impi


    The only piece of ground this corresponds to is the Ngwebeni Valley.
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10890
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 68
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: The end of the TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 am

    Hi Frank
    I never bought into it in the first place ! Joker Joker . Where was this Raw statement , Capetown Archives ? .
    90th Very Happy
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Feb 14, 2020 5:43 am

    Morning Gary
    I will post the whole statement shortly. I Found it in the KC. Its most probably 'out there' at present but its the first time ive actually seen it in full.
    My opinion on TMFH is/was always a wait and see. R and Q did miss out on a lot but the theory was 'acceptable' to a degree, enough for me to sit on the fence at any rate.
    Still lots of respect to them both for publishing it.
    Cheers Mate
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10890
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 68
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: The end of the TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Feb 14, 2020 10:42 am

    Agreed ...takes BALLS to publish , especially something differing from the norm . Interesting Cricket match the other day , I watched the last over on Youtube , couldn't believe they CHOKED ! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
    90th Salute
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyFri Feb 14, 2020 3:35 pm

    Id written the game off so didnt bother watching the last few overs. Decided to do something more fun, watched the grass grow for a while but couldnt handle the tension so spent some time watching the paint dry. Joker
    Really not looking forward to your lot coming out here. No
    Back to top Go down
    SRB1965

    SRB1965


    Posts : 1223
    Join date : 2017-05-13
    Age : 59
    Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Feb 16, 2020 11:15 am

    Hi Frank,

    If you listen carefully you may be able to hear a sigh of relief coming from Chichester.......

    Cheers

    Sime
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Feb 16, 2020 2:04 pm

    Indeed Sime agree
    Back to top Go down
    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 428
    Join date : 2013-09-16
    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Feb 17, 2020 7:50 am

    Sorry guys
    Been so busy with my pans and haven't been on the sight for a while and this subject happens to pop up my favorite. So I have been doing a hell of a lot of research and at last I work out where Trooper Barker saw that large army hidden behind a hill a short distance from Itusi, what one needs to do is to determine the time which by reading his testimony he states once he spots this army he informs Lieut Scott of his find and is then sent to HQ to report he then heads back to Itusi but first bumps into the rocket battery this will make it about 11:30am so the sighting Large Zulu army behind this hill near Itusi can be timed at around 1045 this same Zulu  army Barker spots behind a hill is the same one Essex states 3 Zulu columns retiring this message reaches Durnford which prompts his move to move Raw and Roberts up and the Rocket battery the only difference is that Barkers report confirmed was received at HQ after the Zulus retiring
    message arrived this army that retired did not retire to the valley were the historical account says the discovery took place but behind this hill 600 to 800 meters from Itusi  BARKER CONFIRMS THIS 100%
    not only that, reed his testimony its clear as crystal he sees Raws  and Roberts troops to his left he states he has just arrived at his Picket position ITUSI  and hears the first gun shots, there not coming from the Ngbweni valley there coming from his left [Left of ITUSI ] Raw and Roberts has just cross over this same hill Barker sights a large army less than one hour ago THE MISSING FIVE HOURS IS 100% CORRECT  read it for your self Barker is the key to the discovery and he is on Itusi. Now concerning this hill you will all need to wait until my websight is online i have identified it on one of my panorama's

    YOUR THOUGHTS GUYS but please read Barkers testimony first, carefully very carefully.
    Back to top Go down
    Bill8183




    Posts : 163
    Join date : 2015-11-08
    Age : 55
    Location : Sunderland

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Feb 17, 2020 12:29 pm

    Just the discovery part is 100 % correct? Or do you believe their conjecture that the battle had already started?
    Those who would disagree often state the visibility from Mkwene to the valley as proof they retired all the way back. So:
    What difference in topography is there from 1879to today.
    Do any sources EXPLICITLY state they retired all the way out of sight?
    The speed with which the attack developed could suggest they were much closer.
    From Frank's quote above Raw states four miles, which is what, 2.5 miles nearer than the valley?

    Bill
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Feb 17, 2020 1:35 pm

    All
    The statement that Frank quotes at the beginning was not written by Raw. I wrote it for a schools' children's extension project in 1980 which summarized Raw's experience. It is clearly stated in the teacher's notes that it was fabricated for the purposes of the project. This has not prevented a handful of writers from quoting from it claiming it as a genuine account but without actually checking the reference with the Campbell Collections.
    I repeat for the sake of absolute clarity that word for word, I wrote it. It is not Raw's own account.
    Back to top Go down
    SRB1965

    SRB1965


    Posts : 1223
    Join date : 2017-05-13
    Age : 59
    Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Feb 17, 2020 3:48 pm

    Have reports of the demise of TMFHT been exaggerated.........?
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Feb 17, 2020 5:38 pm

    Thats damned naughty Julian, I understand the concept you have aimed at but to be so specific in mentioning a 'ravine'?
    A wasted few hours in the KC seeking that letter out that could have been spent else where.
    A tad miffed to say the least !
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Feb 17, 2020 5:42 pm

    Aussie, why do you firstly intimate Barker met the Rb on his way back to Scott and second how do you arrive at the time? Really interested in what your doing.
    Back to top Go down
    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 428
    Join date : 2013-09-16
    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Feb 18, 2020 6:06 am

    Hi Frank
    I will go through it for you Barkers statement " “ Shortly afterwards numbers of Zulus being seen on the hills to the left and front, Trooper Swift and another were sent back to report.  The Zulus remained on the hills and about two hundred advanced to within three hundred yards of us , but on our advancing they retired out of sight and a few of us went up to this hill where the Zulus have disappeared , and on a further hill at about six hundred yards distance we saw a large army sitting down.  We returned to Lieut Scott who was about three miles from camp and reported what we have seen  Hawkins and I where then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp”.. “ On our way back we noticed Zulus advancing slowly ,and when about a mile and a half from the camp  we met the Rocket Battery, who enquired  the enemy’s whereabouts. We advised the officer to proceed to Lieut Scott was stationed , but he asked if he could get up the hill.  We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour.  The officer decided to proceed up this hill and the battery was , half an hour later cut up to a man”.

      The meeting with the rocket battery establish a approximate time  Private Grant of the rocket battery states the Rocket battery left camp at 11:15am  so the time Barker connects with them is around 11:30 and according to his statement above he sights the army behind a hill immediately reports it to Scott then sent to report his find to HQ he gives distances it would not of taken no more than 45 minutes from his sighting to his meeting the rocket battery, So he sights this army around 10:45am it also confirms that the message from Mkwene concerning Zulus retiring arrived some time between 10:30 - 1045am this is confirmed by Private Trainer who said at 10:50am Durnford announces his moves to Raw and Roberts Brickhill confirms they leave at 11am.  After speaking with the rocket battery Barker returns to Itusi and just as he arrives he notices Raw and Roberts on his left in skirmishing order this may indicate they moving towards these cattle and moments after gunshots are heard, Barker's statement   “ As Hawkins and I were returning to the vidette outpost we noticed the mounted Basutos to the extreme left of the camp in skirmishing order and masses of the Zulus on all the hills.  Firing was then heard for the first time, as although we had been within two hundred yards of the Zulus , we had strict orders not to fire the first shot, and no shot up to then had been fired on either side”. Zulus on the hills within sight of Itusi these same Zulus are from this army behind this hill of which Barker 1 hour before  notices a large army sitting down, there on the hill to stop the British pickets from discovering this army it remained behind this hill since around 10:30am and guess what when Barker returns to Itusi 15 minutes before he was speaking to Russell he notices Zulus on the hills again there doing the same job as before which clearly indicates there screening there army behind this hill and then gunshots are heard .

    Barker confirms the true location of the discovery of this army which is in fact only 2 or maybe 3 regiments being the uMcijo, uNokenke, and possibly the umCityu.
    Back to top Go down
    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 428
    Join date : 2013-09-16
    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Feb 18, 2020 6:11 am

    Frank
    the final words of Barker stement he said "We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour. The officer decided to proceed up this hill and the battery was , half an hour later cut up to a man”.

    Barker warned Russel not to go up there why because he knows what there that army behind the hill. and half an hour later Russell is dead.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Feb 18, 2020 12:23 pm

    Hi Aussie. looking very interesting, we are at odds on some timings and interpretations but I look forward to reading your full essay.

    Regards
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 12:03 pm

    Frank
    You will note that I did not put any part of that printed children's booklet in the Campbell Collections. The 'Raw' page must have been separated out and placed there by some mischievous miscreant. Had someone copied it hand-written or was it a printed page?
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 12:17 pm

    Aussie
    I think you have placed the departure of the RB from the camp too early and consequently everything else (which relies on it) is also too early. Grant wasn't the only one to give timings - some reports state they RB was in camp 20 mins before the orders were relayed, i.e. NOT before they physically left the camp but when orders relating to them were received. In terms of then preparing themselves for departure and moving through the camp to a start point on the camp perimeter, I don't believe the RB and Durnford's NNH could have left camp area itself much before 12.30-12.35.
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 1:39 pm

    Bonjour,
    Julian: If Durnford left the camp around 12.30, he was still in camp at the arrival of Gardner and Shepstone (around noon).When Pulleine  met Gardner he did not tell him that he was not in command of the camp (he did not offer him to meet Durnford).
    Unless, Gardner arrived at camp after 12.30 (after the departure of Durnford).
    Amitié
    Fred
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 4:18 pm

    aussie and ymob
    Really sorry, I should have written 11.30-11.35 not 12.30-12.35. I have a head cold making me thicker than usual. Apologies.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 4:28 pm

    Its a typed copy Julian but interestingly speaking to a close friend of the family they have a copy and believe it to be fact.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 4:31 pm

    Frank
    That means that someone deliberately typed out a page from a printed children's book and had it placed it in the museum as if genuine with the intention to deceive. Disgraceful. Perhaps you'd let the museum know next time you're there.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 5:23 pm

    Julian Im in touch with Mbalenhle Zulu at KC. Ive also sent a message to the family advising them of the situation.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 10:54 pm

    Frank tomorrow I'll scan and e-mail you the relevant pages from the book.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 7:32 am

    If you could, I can forward to the family, Just as confirmation.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 7:53 am

    Interesting adjunction to Freds comments. Gardner arrived in the camp at noon so if the RB had followed the route most historians maintain, through the camp, onto the track, across the donga and then turn North to the valley they would have run smack bang into each other. No record of that from Nourse, Gardner, Johnson et al.
    Just a thought.
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 8:18 am

    Bonjour,
    Frank, No record also from the the Officers who left the camp with Durnford (Henderson, Davies...). We also know that Dunrford sent scouts: No record from them about Gardner's party.

    Amitié
    Fred
    I.E: Julian, no need to apologize!
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 9:57 am

    These facts accredit the "Durnford probable route" (Gunner William Taylor's essay).
    Amitié
    Fred
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 2:29 pm

    Indeed!
    Julian
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 2:51 pm

    Tullock visited the battlefield in 1885. I have no further info than that, apart from his mention of a monument to Pope, can anyone fill in the blanks? Who was he, why was he there, what else did he mention, in what context was Pope mentioned.
    Frank
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 4:42 pm

    Frank,
    Tulloch wrote, « Recollections of Forty Years Service » (1903).
    Amitié
    Fred
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 5:23 pm

    Thanks Fred, the key issue for me was the date he was there.
    Regards

    frank
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 8:23 pm

    Frank,
    I know only the month and the year.

    Amitié
    Fred
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10890
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 68
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: The End Of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 5:18 am

    Hi Frank
    I skimmed through Tulloch's book ' Recollections Of Forty Years Service ' he doesn't mention actually visiting Isandlwana , what he says and I quote ...'' Coal is not the only mineral wealth of Natal , close to Isandlwana I found a grand outcrop of Iron-ore ''........ no mention of visiting the Battlefield that I found in the book , although , you'd expect he probably did visit ? , he mentions he did a paper on the Zulu for Private Distribution , if he did visit Isandlwana the details may be therein ?.
    90th Salute
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 8:51 am

    Thanks Gary, Fred managed to get me the info from a newspaper article, that does refer to an essay he wrote.
    Second 1 day today I believe?
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 8:52 am

    That paper is in the British Library. I read it in the mid-70s. I don't recall it being of any interest. I made no notes on it anyway and I don't think I took a photocopy but I'll check. A job for whoever's up in London next, coronavirus permitting!
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 9:22 am

    It most certainly is of interest Julian.
    Back to top Go down
    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 428
    Join date : 2013-09-16
    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 22, 2020 4:19 am

    Julian Whybra wrote:
    aussie and ymob
    Really sorry, I should have written 11.30-11.35 not 12.30-12.35.  I have a head cold making me thicker than usual.  Apologies.

    Sorry for the late reply been very busy with everyone panic buying working 20 hours a day to try to keep up with demand wishing all good health, know to these timings eye witnesses confirm the rocket battery arrive in camp 11am and left around 11:15, remaining in camp for around 15 minutes and trooper Barker meets up with them before they climb they Nqutu Ridge making it around 11:30 or a little later from there Trooper Barker goes straight to Itusi where upon arriving he sees Raws and Roberts troops on his extreme left in skirmishing order most likely after those cattle and then Barker hears gun shot this is direct proof the discovery did not occur at the Ngbewni valley.

    One question for all, where do you believe Raw and Roberts where located when they first saw those cattle? Mkwene or Mabaso these are the only two locations which can fit and if you have been on Mabaso you would have noticed its covered with rocks great ground for horses.

    PLEASE KEEP SAFE ALL OF YOU UNDER THESE TRYING TIMES. it may be another late reply till I reply.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 23, 2020 6:51 am

    Morning Aussie
    Your time and distance calculations dont work, it particular look at the speed of a column of casual infantry marching out of step.
    I have by the way ridden up and across the ridge of Mabaso, its a heck of a lot better than believing Scott could ride his horse up Amatutshane.
    Keep up the good working in your supplies to the stores mate. Sure as hell need them.

    Frank
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptyMon Mar 23, 2020 9:58 am

    Aussie
    I agree with Frank I'm afraid. Barker meeting the RB at 11.30 is far too early.
    Julian
    Back to top Go down
    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 428
    Join date : 2013-09-16
    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySat Mar 28, 2020 10:30 am

    Hi Frank and Julian

    Had a spare 5 minutes, just watch the news and Jo berg is going in lock down things are going crazy.

    Frank as goes with timing Baker confirms the timings he had just arrived on Itusi when he see's Raw and Roberts troops to his extreme left "he saw them" location is confirmed his extreme left not Mabaso its to far and thats straight ahead about 4 miles further out he clearly states extreme left and then he hears gun shots they are the first gun shots Barker hears  this is confirmed again these gunshots Uguku confirms as one black trooper is shot dead those first shots killed that trooper, Barker confirms hearing those first shots coming from his extreme left.

    Julian I calculated the timing from eyewitness testimony we know they left camp 11:15 how long would it take to walk towards Amatushane no more that 30 minutes and Barker meets with them before they reached Amatushane I may be out by 5 minutes but certainly 11:30 is close to the mark unless the Rocket battery left camp a little earlier or later then that 11:30 may be out by 10 to 15 minutes what time do you think they connected ? also Barker mentions within 30 minutes after meeting with them Russell was dead this also confirms the discovery happen in a close proximity because within 30 minutes he was killed if the discovery happen on the other side of Mabaso it would of taken much longer than 30 minutes those zulus Barkers squad scatters one hour before are most likely those who killed Russell read Barkers testimony he warn'd Russell not to go up there because he knew were the Zulus were hidden 700 meters from Itusi not behind Mabaso thats why the chest arrived much later in the battle because they came from Mabaso the first action is confirmed located around Bazas kraal which is near Mkwene these zulus in this action were the same zulus which were discovered only 2 or 3 regiments then shortly after that Durnford retires back to camp stops in a donga near Amatushane confirm also by Barker then rides back to his final donga as he rides to that donga the inGabamokosi streams down the notch then after that the chest arrives and the main attack begins. it all fits perfectly.

    PLEASE KEEP SAFE ALL OF YOU.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySat Mar 28, 2020 5:08 pm

    Aussie inkosi
    A question: Have you ever walked from the Bashee stream to the area of the waggon park i.e. the rear of the camp? Let's say a fast walk but not a jog. How long do you think it would take? I ask because you are a lot younger and fitter than I am and your own answer will be more acceptable to you if I am to prove my point.
    Back to top Go down
    aussie inkosi

    aussie inkosi


    Posts : 428
    Join date : 2013-09-16
    Age : 58
    Location : MELBOURNE

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 7:35 am

    Hi Julian

    The distance is around 2km which will take around 20 to 30 minutes.

    So if its correct they left camp around 11:15am and Trooper Barker connects with them before Amatushane then 11:30 is close to the mark, give or take 5 minutes.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 9:48 am

    Ausie
    I don't think you read my last post correctly. I asked the walking time from the Bashee (Batshe) River to Isandhlwana. The distance is about 7.5 km in a straight line on the map. Using the track it is more like 10-12 km. I've never walked it so I don't know how long it would take. That is what I asked you.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 12:28 pm

    Between 90 and 120 minutes
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 12:36 pm

    From the Bashe its a long uphill slog untill the current T junction then again uphill over the ridge, long straight down through the village and downslope to the Manzimyama then savage uphill to the saddle.
    Hope that helps.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 2:14 pm

    Aussie,
    You wrote “I calculated the timing from eyewitness testimony we know they left camp 11:15”
    I dispute that.  I know why you think it.  You arrive at it from “eyewitness testimony” i.e.

    Grant                                                                                                                                      
    “We arrived about 11 a.m. and remained near the Camp about ¼ of an hour.”
    Johnson                                                                                                                                        
    “We got to Isandhlwana…about 11 a.m.  We halted there about 10 minutes when … Durnford came down from the Camp of the 1/24th Regiment and gave orders…”
    Trainer
    “…at about 10.30 a.m. we arrived in…Camp and went to the…contingent huts…Durnford gave us orders not to off saddle, and went away…to the tents of the 1/24th…He returned about 10 minutes to 11 and ordered the… officers to fall in.”

    Grant & Johnson estimate an arrival time of 11; Trainer estimates it as 10.30.
    Grant estimates Durnford’s return to give them orders as 11.15, Johnson as 11.10, and Trainer as 10.50.
    Only one out of three gives you 11.15 for Durnford’s return to give orders.  None of these three would have had a watch.  The only relative accuracy will be in the estimated time they had to wait for Durnford’s return, i.e. 15, 10 and 20 minutes respectively.  They cannot give any accuracy (beyond vaguely) for the Rocket Battery’s arrival time in camp.
    So can we find an accurate time?  Yes, we can.  Lieut. Erskine helps to provide it.

    Erskine:
    “We marched as far as the Bashee stream about ten a.m., where Capt. Russell of the rocket battery gave orders for D company to march on with all speed with him, and E company, with Capt. Stafford, stayed behind to escort the wagons.”
    The waggons had travelled just under half way to Isandhlwana and had crossed over the Bashee Drift.  The orders for Russell/Nourse were to march ahead with all speed leaving the waggons to follow behind in the care of Stafford’s E coy.

    Frank reckons the time taken to walk from the Bashee to the camp is about 90-120 mins.
    Travelling “with all speed”, and remembering that the Rocket Battery was mounted and left the Bashee “about ten a.m.”, I reckon the Rocket Battery/Nourse might have arrived on the saddle overlooking the camp at about 11.15-11.20.

    From there, the Rocket Battery moved along the rear of the camp to a position behind the N.N.C. tents (which one is not mentioned but since they were both at the northern end of the camp a fairly precise position can be estimated).  This is known from Trainer’s testimony above and also from Interpreter Brickhill’s:

    Brickhill
    “8 natives came in from the South of the camp under a white flag…I took them to the Column office, and from there to Colonel Durnford at the back of the N.N.C. camp.”

    According to Grant, Trainer and Johnson the Rocket Battery stayed in camp between 10 and 20 minutes.  At that point Durnford returned to the rear of the N.N.C. camps, called together his officers, and issued them with orders.  He then walked back to Pulleine’s tent in the 1/24th camp where he met Capt. Stafford.

    Stafford had been with the waggons on the Bashee but according to Erskine left there at 10.15 to hurry on to Isandhlwana.

    Erskine:
    “After staying there [the Bashee] about a quarter of an hour, orders came for Capt. Stafford to leave part of his company as escort for the wagons, and to hurry on with the rest to the front.  He left me with 16 men, and told me to hurry on the wagons…”  

    It would have taken Stafford about 75-80 mins. to make the journey, arriving at camp at about 11.30-11.35 just in time to see and be given orders by Durnford before the latter led the Rocket Battery and Nourse’s men out from the camp.

    A departure time of 11.30-11.35 for the Rockey Battery means it would have stayed in camp for roughly 15 minutes after its arrival.


    Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 4:51 pm

    The important thing about the Rocket Battery speed is the rate of march by the NNC escort and the speed of the mules. If the column left the Mzinyathi camp at 7ish, and accepting Erskins time, it therefore took 3 hours to walk/march 60% of the distance so to cover the balance would 2 hours. That fits in with the rate of march as laid down in Field Service regulations. However the probable key is the rate of the mules, from the same regulations 3 miles per hour, 5 kilometres per hour.
    If therefore we are going to reverse engineer the timings and stick to the possible 11.30 time of arrival that would effectivly rule out Erskin as an accurate source and put the time of reaching the Bashe at closer to 9.30/9.45
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 4019
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 5:57 pm

    Frank
    9.45 is close to 10 a.m. but...
    remember that they had crossed the Bashee drift (that would take a little time in itself) and were resting (the mules) on the far bank and waiting for the ox-waggons to cross.
    Remember also that the column would have all been going at the same pace as the 16 ox-waggons. Erskine's time of about 10 a.m. would fit very well.
    I'm not sure Frank where you get the "11.30 time of arrival" from which you mention at the end of your last post. Whose arrival are you referring to?
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    The end of TMFHT Empty
    PostSubject: Re: The end of TMFHT   The end of TMFHT EmptySun Mar 29, 2020 6:25 pm

    Sorry that should have read departure
    Back to top Go down
     
    The end of TMFHT
    Back to top 
    Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
     Similar topics
    -
    » The start of TMFHT

    Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
    Jump to: